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From Software Elden Ring - From Software's new game with writing by GRRM

Lutte

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This all comes down to whether the game wants to be purely about memorization(DS3, Elden Ring), problem solving (DeS style) or reaction time based (any enemy in an action game whose attacks are swift but behave in a predictable manner).

Personally I find an excess of the first type to be degenerate gameplay, while a moderate amount of it adds surprise and change of pace. And yes, ER to me falls heavily into the degenerate level.
 

Eyestabber

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It's a long rant but just watch from where I timestamped.


I love it how whenever the guy starts sounding angry and frustrated footage of Maliketh is playing on the background. :lol:

He makes some good points. In ER the combat degenerated too much into "press B at the right moment", but I blame Dark Souls 3 for this sad state of affairs. To me one of DS3 greatest darling bosses is the exact moment when things took a turn for the worse: Dancer of The Boreal Valley, the original 360º ultra unfair blender. Dark Souls appealed to me because it brought semi-realistic motions for swinging weapons and combat felt like a fun semi-fantastic duel. However, by the time Dark Souls 3 reaches its midpoint things start to change and enemies become more anime, with long combos and no respite in between. Completely different from their alleged inspiration, Knight Artorias. That guy actually gives you plenty of time to do things and he can be staggered out of his buff, which makes him feel a lot more "fair".

Fast forward into DS 3 and we start seeing more and more "rules for thee, but not for me" crap. Multi-hit combos are a BIG issue in a game where you can't swing your sword more than a couple times before running out of stamina. DS 1, 2 and 3 (up until a certain point) didn't have this issue, as bosses would chain 3, 4 MAX attacks, with time in-between for you to sneak a hit or heal. They gave you a "turn" in between their hits, so long as you knew what action could "fit" in that mini "turn". DS2 complicated things further with Agility, a mechanic I consider to be interesting, but apparently everyone hated. ER bosses and even some mobs have relentless attack chains with small intervals in between. It's like the "mini turn" we had previously in-between boss attacks is now the only turn we're allowed and the feeling of unfairness increases.

Another egregious bullshit not mentioned in the video is the introduction of "no, fuck YOU" attacks. Boss does something that clearly looks like an opening, you go in and BAM, tail swipe, say good bye to 60% of your HP, SUCKER. We're introduced to this crap right at the beginning of the game, with Margit's infamous knife attack. That shit doesn't seem to have any "rules", Margit pulls his knife whenever he feels like he should end your "turn". DS 3 brought some of this crap, but ER perfected the art of imposing arbitrary gameplay onto the players. While DS 1 felt rewarding because most concepts were universally valid through the game, so much so that Black Knights basically teach you how to demolish Gwynn, ER does the opposite and forces you to learn every enemy individually, with no common ground between them other than "press B at the right time". There's no feeling of "I'm getting better at this" because everything you learned fighting X becomes useless once Y comes around and brings a slightly different delay, larger hitboxes and more blatant input reading.

ER also introduced us to a new bullshit: enemies that backstep away from you right when your "turn" was supposed to start. This is hands down THE MOST INFURIATING THING I found through my playthrough. Whoever designed those fire breathing eagles deserves nothing less than death. Many other enemies pull similar crap, including the final boss, a monstrosity that almost forces you to switch to ranged due to his bullshit constant kiting. To me that was not a problem, since I was playing the top "meta" build (INT/DEX Moonveil + Staff) so I could easily pew pew him to death. But a dedicated melee character probably found that fight to be ridiculous.

And last but not least, we have the tried and true method of STAT BLOATING. When creativity runs out, just triple HP, double the damage and DONE. The kiddies will feel validated once they beat Bullshit Blender #37. Some fights have such an absurd amount of damage bloat they render the Vigor stat obsolete. This is THE biggest issue I have with both Nioh and Sekiro. Once the game degenerates into "hit this enemy 50 times to kill it, get hit twice and you die" my incentive to play it goes out the fucking window. Not only do I feel like it's a complete waste of my time, I also scoff at the notion of how the game expects me to believe such a wimpy, weak and useless character beats so many overpowered enemies. It's the extreme opposite of a power fantasy. People who enjoy that kind of thing REALLY need to try hiring a Dominatrix to step on their balls and peg them with a dildo while they scream "Lady Butterfly, why?".
 
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Zboj Lamignat

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Random, layman question: why are you constantly, to the point of exclusivity, fighting basketball players in these newer games? "Player is a normal-sized humanoid, but there are humanoid enemies of various shapes and sizes" was very much a thing in DeS and DS1 (the only games in the series I've really played and enjoyed), but it was used rather sparingly and to a pretty good effect. Now it seems like every random undead boi is a stretched out spehs marine or a lanky 2.5m drug addict. What gives?
 

Haplo

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Pillars of Eternity 2: Deadfire
And last but not least, we have the tried and true method of STAT BLOATING. When creativity runs out, just triple HP and double the damage and DONE. The kiddies will feel validated once they beat Bullshit Blender #37. Some fights have such an absurd amount of damage bloat they render the Vigor stat obsolete. This is THE biggest issue I have with both Nioh and Sekiro. Once the game degenerates into "hit this enemy 50 times to kill it, get hit twice and you die" my incentive to play it goes out the fucking window. Not only do I feel like it's a complete waste of my time, I also scoff at the notion of how the game expects me to believe such a wimpy, weak and useless character beats so many overpowered enemies. It's the extreme opposite of a power fantasy. People who enjoy that kind of thing REALLY need to try hiring a Dominatrix to step on their balls and peg them with a dildo while they scream "Lady Butterfly, why?".

I agree with most of what you wrote.
Except for the bloat in Nioh. I mean it exists, sure. But your offensive tools keep up with it if you build well and upgrade your equipment (and sometimes late game fights are actually much shorter then early game, due to increased lethality).
 

Anonona

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Random, layman question: why are you constantly, to the point of exclusivity, fighting basketball players in these newer games? "Player is a normal-sized humanoid, but there are humanoid enemies of various shapes and sizes" was very much a thing in DeS and DS1 (the only games in the series I've really played and enjoyed), but it was used rather sparingly and to a pretty good effect. Now it seems like every random undead boi is a stretched out spehs marine or a lanky 2.5m drug addict. What gives?

I think the reasons are twofold; to help the player by making the enemy easier to see, so you can judge correctly when to dodge, block or attack, and to make the enemies look more imposing, similar to how old J-rpgs like Final Fantasy made the sprites of enemies big and detailed compared to the player's.
 

SumDrunkGuy

Guest


It's a long rant but just watch from where I timestamped.


I agree with him 100%. Most of the major bosses in this game are annoying as fuck, and then the mini bosses die in like 5-6 hits. This game really shit the bed when it comes to boss fights. I haven't enjoyed a single one.
 

Zboj Lamignat

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I think the reasons are twofold; to help the player by making the enemy easier to see, so you can judge correctly when to dodge, block or attack, and to make the enemies look more imposing, similar to how old J-rpgs like Final Fantasy made the sprites of enemies big and detailed compared to the player's.
The imposing part is exactly how it worked in the older games and not only with bosses, but knights in DS1, for example. Once everyone is the same, the effect is mostly gone. The '"readability" argument makes some sense, I guess, but the approach seems a bit 4d chess type of thing, where they are making the minor enemies that don't matter more readable, while bosses are getting more and more "wowowowow, ok"
 

Eyestabber

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Except for the bloat in Nioh. I mean it exists, sure. But your offensive tools keep up with it if you build well and upgrade your equipment (and sometimes late game fights are actually much shorter then early game, due to increased lethality).

I ditched Nioh 1 in the post game, never bothered with the DLC because shit like being ganked by Yuki Ona was getting old and annoying. Nioh raises the difficulty by recicling bosses and turning them into gank fights, which is both low effort and not fun. Nioh 2 I stopped caring at the Spear guy near the end. That dude seems DS3 inspired due to being yet another bullshit blender. From that point onwards I started using cheat engine to get through the worse parts of the game, finished it, uninstalled and never looked back. It doesn't help that Nioh 2 plot is such convoluted garbage while Nioh 1 at least had a "silly fun" vibe going for it. I could write a bunch of essays on why Nioh 2's writing is dogshit tier terrible and having no story whatsoever would actually be an IMPROVEMENT over what Nioh 2 brings to the table.

I think the reasons are twofold; to help the player by making the enemy easier to see, so you can judge correctly when to dodge, block or attack, and to make the enemies look more imposing, similar to how old J-rpgs like Final Fantasy made the sprites of enemies big and detailed compared to the player's.

Not true, PvP invaders are the same size as the player, demi-humans are actually smaller and I have no problem reading their movements. The tall characters are yet another example of Souls becoming a parody of itself. Black Knights in DS 1 were about 15-20 cm taller than the player. In ER...well I'm just gonna say one thing: DON'T stand face to face with Blaidd. Just...don't. :?

I haven't enjoyed a single one.
Then you should just ditch the game, because hating EVERY BOSS means you hate the game, period. I found plenty of bosses enjoyable like Godrick, Godfrey (Golden version), Astel, Regal Ancestor Spirit, Leonine Misbegotten (gets recycled into shit, but was fun the first time), Valiant Gargoyle (turns into shit by becoming a gank fight, but STILL a single gargoyle feels pretty fair), Omenkiller...just to name a few. Every Souls game has great boss fights and trash boss fights (Bed of Chaos, in case you ppl forgot), but the good-to-shit ratio in ER leans towards the latter. Despite being the inferior game overall, DS 3 had a better good-to-shit ratio when it comes to bosses and that says a lot about ER bosses.
 

cvv

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Enjoy the Revolution! Another revolution around the sun that is.
I think the reasons are twofold; to help the player by making the enemy easier to see, so you can judge correctly when to dodge, block or attack, and to make the enemies look more imposing, similar to how old J-rpgs like Final Fantasy made the sprites of enemies big and detailed compared to the player's.
The imposing part is exactly how it worked in the older games and not only with bosses, but knights in DS1, for example. Once everyone is the same, the effect is mostly gone. The '"readability" argument makes some sense, I guess, but the approach seems a bit 4d chess type of thing, where they are making the minor enemies that don't matter more readable, while bosses are getting more and more "wowowowow, ok"

Yes, a lot of bosses actually sacrificed readibility for the wow effect.

To the point where most of their attacks actually happen off screen where you can't see them, either because they're so enormous or because they love to jump high above you and do some shit while you're desperately craning your neck, which is pointless because the consolitised camera has a limited turn radius.
 
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ER bosses and even some mobs have relentless attack chains with small intervals in between. It's like the "mini turn" we had previously in-between boss attacks is now the only turn we're allowed and the feeling of unfairness increases.

I find it annoying because of how contrived it is rather than how unfair it is compared to previous iterations. You can almost feel the game straining itself to invalidate your control inputs at times.

In retrospect I think 2nd phase Champion Gundyr (without parrying) is probably as tight as you can make attack interval timings and still have a fun fight with standard soulslike player action speeds.
 

Sunri

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Every day we get closer to the Elden Drip
8dETC8w.png
 

deem

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I'm exploring the Raya Lucaria Academy and I came across this odd sundial.

20220323145031-1.jpg


Now, I have encountered these before. One near Royal Moongazing Grounds where you fight Loretta in Caria Manor.

20220323153446-1.jpg


And another one in Caelid near the Church of the Plague.

20220323153317-1.jpg


What are they for? Is there a fourth one, together with the other three, forming a ball? If these are sundials, perhaps time of day is of the essence.

Addendum:

There is another one in Redmane Castle.

20220323155615-1.jpg
 
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NJClaw

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Pathfinder: Wrath I'm very into cock and ball torture
to be fair, people dumb enough to buy a game that every game journo says is "GOTYAY MASTERPIECE!!!" deserve what they get
Clickbaity youtubers who put videos' titles/descriptions in the thumbnail highlighting key words in red and make video titled "Gaming is Dying, and HYPE is Killing it" ,"Youtube is Dying, and THEY are Killing It", or "The Suicide Squad is Worse Than You Think" are even worse than game journos.
 

cvv

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Enjoy the Revolution! Another revolution around the sun that is.
to be fair, people dumb enough to buy a game that every game journo says is "GOTYAY MASTERPIECE!!!" deserve what they get
Clickbaity youtubers who put videos' titles/descriptions in the thumbnail highlighting key words in red and make video titled "Gaming is Dying, and HYPE is Killing it" ,"Youtube is Dying, and THEY are Killing It", or "The Suicide Squad is Worse Than You Think" are even worse than game journos.
Yeah, there's plenty of valid criticism for ER but that particular Tuber is both stupid and wrong.
 

Child of Malkav

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The real problem with ER bosses is most of them are just way too hard for most people. Most gaymers won't be able to beat them without summons....but summons trivialize p. much all of them.
Bullshit is the word you're looking for. Bad design in 2 words. One extreme or another. No in between.
 

Ravielsk

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It's a long rant but just watch from where I timestamped.

One very important detail the video mentions is how they fucked up poise and armors in general. I completely forgot about it but half the reason why the game felt so much better in network test is because the armor actually worked and wearing medium/heavy slacks on actually mitigated damage to a reasonable degree. Its honestly insane how close they were to having a decent system and then just ditched it because... well I dunno for the memes?

Because really at this point it feels like Bloodborne was the worst thing that could have happened to the series because a lot of the current cancer in ER is inherited from Bloodborne. The spammy blender bosses, the absolute lack of poise or defensive options, dodge spamming etc. All of that originated in Bloodborne. I suspect that on some level the massively positive reaction to that game tainted the whole series because since then From Soft was just pilfering parts of its design for its other games with no regard for how they slot into the rest of the package. It also does not help that there is a literal army of dipshits who go on and on about how Arthorias is the best boss ever, how its their favorite and how we need more of him because obviously it could never get old fighting the same guy for 40+ hours(Hbomberguy).

I also suspect that From is trying to keep the game interesting for "souls veterans" but at this point that amounts to applying a 3x modifier to enemy HP and damage because how do you keep up with dudes who have been "training" for 10+ years? You dont you just make it more bullshit.
 
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Child of Malkav

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Also I'm pretty sure that Morgott has in phase two a 14 attack combo. I counted till 8 but he went on and did around 5 extra attacks, helicopter style. Bosses like this deserve nothing but the scummiest cheese available at that point in time. What an absolute trash design.
 

Ravielsk

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I could write a bunch of essays on why Nioh 2's writing is dogshit tier terrible and having no story whatsoever would actually be an IMPROVEMENT over what Nioh 2 brings to the table.
Nioh 2 in general is a worse game because it (much like ER) nerfed the player by removing living weapons but buffed the bosses and enemies. With both I get the impression that the team had their priorities completely out of whack because both balance wise feel like PvP games with PvE as a side activity when they are both the exact inverse.
 

deem

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I enjoyed fighting this rotten fella. He did knock me off the horse a couple of times and the prompt asking you if you want to revive Torrent is very annoying. The cursor even defaults to 'No'.

20220323162821-1.jpg


These brown dragons found in Caelid do not drop dragon hearts and do not breathe fire. Upon killing the mother dragon, several of them drop dead and they do drop hearts.

20220323161919-1.jpg
 

The Decline

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Everywhere
I ditched Nioh 1 in the post game, never bothered with the DLC because shit like being ganked by Yuki Ona was getting old and annoying. Nioh raises the difficulty by recicling bosses and turning them into gank fights, which is both low effort and not fun.
Too bad. The real Nioh experience starts about the time you actually finish the game a second time and you unlock the sets and the various upgraded variants. In this aspect it's more of a Diablo style game rather than a Soulslike and, tbh, I believe that anyone who compares Nioh with Souls hasn't really played it too far. The gank fights start to make sense once you realize that the purpose of the game is to actually grind whatever it is you need to make an absolute OP build and see how fast you can one shot everything. If you get wrecked by a boss fight, you go back to the drawing board and grind to reroll the stats on your armor until you get that elusive +25% boost to the exact skill you need, go back and wreck shit in 2 seconds flat.

I remember doing a kunai ninja build and steam rolling all the way up to NG+5 or 6.
 

Olinser

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Nov 1, 2018
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Denial


It's a long rant but just watch from where I timestamped.

One very important detail the video mentions is how they fucked up poise and armors in general. I completely forgot about it but half the reason why the game felt so much better in network test is because the armor actually worked and wearing medium/heavy slacks on actually mitigated damage to a reasonable degree. Its honestly insane how close they were to having a decent system and then just ditched it because... well I dunno for the memes?

Because really at this point it feels like Bloodborne was the worst thing that could have happened to the series because a lot of the current cancer in ER is inherited from Bloodborne. The spammy blender bosses, the absolute lack of poise or defensive options, dodge spamming etc. All of the originated in Bloodborne. I suspect that on some level the massively positive reaction to that game tainted the whole series because since then From Soft was just pilfering parts of its design for its other games with no regard for how they slot into the rest of the package. I also does not help that there is a literal army of dipshits who go on and on about how Arthorias is the best boss ever, how its their favorite and how we need more of him because obviously it could never get old fighting the same guy for 40+ hours(Hbomberguy).

I also suspect that From is trying to keep the game interesting for "souls veterans" but at this point that amounts to applying a 3x modifier to enemy HP and damage because how do you keep up with dudes who have been "training" for 10+ years? You dont you just make it more bullshit.


Why are people claiming armor doesn't work? It does work, it's just because you're never given damage values its tough to see the difference without big changes.

I agree that wearing Medium armor is useless. You need to go either Light for max rolling, or max out heavy for mitigation - which does give respectable mitigation.

And yes, poise does technically 'work', but the problem is that it's just not balanced properly with the enemies in the game.

The jackasses whining about 'POISE DON'T WORK' don't understand that it's not a simple 'staggered or not' calculation.

When you get hit, you either don't stagger, you slightly stagger on your feet (less than half a second recovery), you major stagger (about a full second before recovery), or you get knocked down completely.

People whining POISE DON'T WORK are whining that they can't just stand in place and attack a boss after slapping on some light armor. Even heavy armor poise won't do that, but it WILL change a knockdown into a stagger.

It may need some tweaking in the numbers, but it definitely works.
 

deem

Arbiter
Joined
Oct 3, 2019
Messages
421
Found out two things.

Thing no 1.
In Liurnia, near the Erdtree there is a tower. Inside the tower I found a statue and a message placed by the developer that read:

Erudition guide thee!

20220323173346-1.jpg

I performed the 'Erudition' emote and after a minute or so a ladder materialized behind the statue!

20220323173253-1.jpg

I climbed up the ladder and found a chest with a Memory Stone.

20220323173403-1.jpg

Thing no 2.
These bastards actually heal themselves sometimes. Never noticed before given how weak they are to charged attacks.

20220323171342-1.jpg
 

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