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From Software Elden Ring - From Software's new game with writing by GRRM

mediocrepoet

Philosoraptor in Residence
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Turning a Souls like game into a true RPG would require a different approach especially with regard to tying key systems to specific NPCs. Like it might be fine to tell the only magic vendor to go fuck himself and lock yourself out of sorcery, but levelling up would have to be free from that sort of thing instead of just railroading you into accepting them. As it is, I don't even see why you have dialog choices as is. They're either railroaded because you have no choice but to say yes/take the consequences of saying yes, or they're binary "false choices": do you want the reward / quest progression or not?
 

TheHeroOfTime

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I don't agree with the criticism about the game's world not being a believable world. I mean, that's the point. The game's world is not a realistic one. It's an oniric, dark and twisted realm where creatures called "demigods" live (And they all lost their sanity to some extent). The game is never supposed to be a coherent representation of a dark age realm or similar with "reasonable" people doing "reasonable" things, with complete recognizable behaviors and life styles. It's a fucked up place where shit happened time before you arrive, where everything is hostile (Take Caelid as an example, it looks like one of those weird and dark paintings). Where nothing makes sense tou you, a foreigner from the exterior (You can start playing as a samurai when there's not a japanese civilization in the lands between). The only place that serves as shelter is the round table, where the most reasonable characters group. And they start losing it, doing weird shit too as the game progresses. The only thing I don't like is the round table not being an integrated place in the world, like a camp or a village. It would fit better than a complete disconnected area as it is in the game.

It's not the same thematically, but you can really tell the inspiration from the worlds of ICO (Miyazaki's favourite videogame according to interviews), and particularly Shadow of the colossus. The way the world-storytelling is created is very similar, presenting unreasonable elements (Sometimes clashing with the gameplay, like the inexistence of minor enemies or similar things) and leaving it without explanation to the player.

dailymotion_x618qdb.jpg


In the case of Elden ring, all serves as the background for a tale of *Insert your character* killing all shit, looting and finding weird places and characters. And I think it works well, makes the game's world feel unique where most other open worlds are just trying to "mimic" realistic worlds and civilizations. I prefer smaller games for that, like Age of decadence, where the game's spins around that. Or games like Zelda: Majora's mask, where every NPC having a different behavior and locations through the 3 days loop makes the gameplay interesting and meaningful.
 

Silva

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I was telling my friend that if this game let me actually talk to these people it would be basically perfect but since it lacks that one thing it entirely leans on atmosphere and combat which if you don't like or are not good at can be rough. So they made the world real big so people can just over level everything and still kept the dialog out because the slave drivers don't know how to write words, or they are afraid butthurt Souls fans would be horribly offended if you had a dialog tree.
I think it has more to do with From being the victim of their own success. They came up with a formula that works and now they most likely fear deviating from it. The problem is that all previous Souls game were relatively short games that were massively boosted by their difficulty. Because once you get over the learning phase of it all most are not longer than 20 hours(assuming you are not just deliberately skipping shit) and for that the amount of dialog is... alright. I personally want way, way more of it but its not like its absence made the games significantly worse.

Elden Ring's open world simply no can no longer support that approach and it just makes it a direct detriment instead of a neutral design choice.
Yeah, the vague dialogue fitted their early games vibe and atmosphere of isolation. It made sense stylistically. But with Elden Ring going almost full mainstream in it's NPC dialogues, having the player limited to only minimalist options feels off. Like we're playing a retardo.
 
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TheHeroOfTime

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I don't agree with the criticism about the game's world not being a believable world. I mean, that's the point. The game's world is not a realistic one. It's an oniric, dark and twisted realm where creatures called "demigods" live (And they all lost their sanity to some extent).
That's the intention, yes. But the world otherwise looks like a middle ages realm created by someone whose whole understanding of the period is from watching Games of Thrones.

Exactly

FMxq6pzWUAYgIuw.jpg
 

Silva

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I don't agree with the criticism about the game's world not being a believable world. I mean, that's the point. The game's world is not a realistic one. It's an oniric, dark and twisted realm where creatures called "demigods" live (And they all lost their sanity to some extent). The game is never supposed to be a coherent representation of a dark age realm or similar with "reasonable" people doing "reasonable" things, with complete recognizable behaviors and life styles.
Crazy, exotic fictional worlds can (and should) present internal logic and causality. See Planescape Torment and Disco Elysium.
 

Eyestabber

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I think the only sane NPC in ER is Margit. And "Tarnished" are the Lands Between's niggers. So the only sane person in the game calls you a nigger thief and then goes on to clarify that all you kind are the same, shortly before hate-criming your ass at least 27 times. And let's not forget the first guy you meet calls you an incel and ORIGINALLY he was meant to tell you to go die in a ditch somewhere. ALSO, the first GIRL you meet confirms your incel status and only agrees to be "friends" with you because she can vanish into the ether at will. I think this guy might be right:



TL;DW: Elden Ring is shit because From is a toxic company that fosters a toxic community, PROVE ME WRONG. But if you do, GET OUT OF MY CHANNEL, MKAY!?

And yes, he looks exactly like you would expect.

EmqU4QM.png
 

Ghulgothas

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Souls fans always sound so miserable about the games they like. Reminds me of NMA.
Because they have so much untapped potential that is largely untapped for no good reason. I genuinely like the souls-born stories and I do enjoy "putting them together" but at the same time I hate that most of it happens because your character is never allowed to ask a singular question. For example in Bloodborne you are literary defined as a stranger who is just visiting yet at no point in the game can you ask even the most rudimentary of things like "what are those beasts? What is happening? Where am I?"

It seriously ruins the immersion and even the believability of the story when most of it is obscured because of your characters crushing autism.
"Tarnished one, will you take me along on your journey so that I may tend to you as a maiden?"

- Yes
- Sarcasm (yes)
- What's a maiden? (yes)
- No (yes)

MAYDENLESS.png
 
Joined
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Messages
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I don't agree with the criticism about the game's world not being a believable world. I mean, that's the point. The game's world is not a realistic one. It's an oniric, dark and twisted realm where creatures called "demigods" live (And they all lost their sanity to some extent). The game is never supposed to be a coherent representation of a dark age realm or similar with "reasonable" people doing "reasonable" things, with complete recognizable behaviors and life styles.
Crazy, exotic fictional worlds can (and should) present internal logic and causality. See Planescape Torment and Disco Elysium.

There is an internal logic and causality, it just requires relatively high suspension of disbelief and some familiarity with weird thingies like alchemy and hermetics to enjoy. Which I don't blame most people who bounce off FromSoft' narratives for lacking, nor am I trying to make the storyfag equivalent of a "git gud" argument by suggesting that everyone should skim the wiki page on Rebis or Christian mystical traditions before playing the game. Nor is the game a comprehensive primer on the very concepts it uses, which inevitably will leave most people confused. For the record, I do not claim to be well informed of these topics, but I've played a Bungie game once and like read some manga I guess or whatever I don't know.

I also see a high degree of artificiality and contrivance in the game world, but I think the game has actually grounded and justified the aforementioned in a way I for the most part found very convincing. I don't believe there is an objectively good or bad way to tell a story, mind you, but I also think you might be a little nostalgic in forgiving the artificiality and its justifications in previous FS games when those have largely been as in Elden Ring going back to at least DS1.

In DS1, why do all of Anor Londo's defenders continue to attack you even after you gain an audience with Gwynevere or join Gwyndolin's covenant when most of the above were just 'dolin's illusions in the first place?

In DS2 Drangleic makes no sense as a kingdom whatsoever, there is no major population center, and the world does not make sense geographically.

DS3 is a space/time mindfuck from beginning to the end.

In Sekiro, ostensibly the most historically inspired game of the bunch, how does Ashina castle even get invaded by an army when the surrounding landscape is a fantastical stretch of broken roads and cliffs that only a superhuman ninja with a grappling hook would be able to navigate?

The reason to all of the above: because FromSoft doesn't care about realistic world building and specializes in gamey design.

Another reason: because FromSoft is self-aware of the above fact and wisely sets most of its games in fantastical settings where the (meta)physical laws of the world are explicitly broken - an intelligent contrivance. Time/fire/status quo is convoluted/fading/shattered and thus everyone is crazy and nothing quite makes sense without ever becoming complete context-free chaos. And in regards to this theme, I think ER has done my favorite job fleshing it out by developing its own shattered metaphysical status quo (elden ring) as a series of rules (great runes) and the player's journey is not simply limited to restoring it but also undergoing the right steps for its and their own alchemical purification, possibly by adding a crucial ingredient - or subverting the process altogether.

So the smegma-scholars among us find it neat how Marika is a rebis not too dissimilar from some mystical interpretations of the Abrahamic God, or that the four colors/stages of the alchemical magnum opus reoccur meaningfully throughout the game, or even simply that FromSoft's extremely unapproachable method of storytelling sort of fulfills the hermetic principle of secrecy of knowledge. But yeah, if you are looking for the game to give you good answers to the more pedestrian concerns of "where are all the caravans going" and "what do all the crazy immortal zombie ghosts eat," your disappointment is understandable. I would just argue that you have unfortunate expectations towards a FromSoft game. Like reading the Old Testament out of interest in ancient battles and being disappointed that the logistics of warfare are glossed over.

And yes by the way, I DO have a Miyazaki tattoo. And no, you cannot see it. It's for the ladies' eyes only- And even they have to demonstrate that they're within 5 IQ points of my own (preferably lower) beforehand.
 

Ravielsk

Magister
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Feb 20, 2021
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high suspension of disbelief
The reason to all of the above: because FromSoft doesn't care about realistic world building and specializes in gamey design.
The problem is not the suspension of disbelief. That is in fact very easy to do in Souls games. The problem is that in Elden Ring that suspension gets more and more strained as you progress because the "gamey design" becomes very "samey" and obvious to anyone with patter recognition.
And yes by the way, I DO have a Miyazaki tattoo. And no, you cannot see it. It's for the ladies' eyes only- And even they have to demonstrate that they're within 5 IQ points of my own (preferably lower) beforehand.
So that's why you have...
876.jpg
 

Ravielsk

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Feb 20, 2021
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In DS2 Drangleic makes no sense as a kingdom whatsoever, there is no major population center, and the world does not make sense geographically.
Drangleic and the world around it is a 100% accurate description of how Europe looked in the 9th century. And before you go all citation needed, this has not only been revealed to me in a dream, but I've also spoken to a guy who has a friend whose cousin used to live back then.
 

perfectslumbers

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Oct 24, 2021
Messages
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Ok, be honest now, when's the last time you had a shower or went outside?
No comment...

In all honesty it's pretty fast, I've never gotten 100% achievements in a game before but when I saw how easy it was in Elden Ring i went ahead and did it, I got almost everything I needed in my first playthrough, so in ng+ 1 and 2 I just needed to kill 2 optional bosses and grab a few missing items.
 

cvv

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Enjoy the Revolution! Another revolution around the sun that is.
In DS2 Drangleic makes no sense as a kingdom whatsoever, there is no major population center, and the world does not make sense geographically.
Drangleic and the world around it is a 100% accurate description of how Europe looked in the 9th century. And before you go all citation needed, this has not only been revealed to me in a dream, but I've also spoken to a guy who has a friend whose cousin used to live back then.
Informative.

Also apparently Memezaki et. al. went to Europe during the DeS development to soak up the medieval Yurop vibe.

They were in Prague too, some of the castle and church designs in all their subsequent games were influenced by Prague architecture. The trademark FS graveyards are p. much copies of the old Jewish graveyard in the Old Quarter.

Also names like Ostrava or Havel are Czech. Ostrava is a city and Havel was an outcast, locked in a tower during the commie regime, who later became president.
 

Lyric Suite

Converting to Islam
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Mar 23, 2006
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I keep seeing comments here about how none of the areas in the Souls games make "sense" but to me this only shows people are having the wrong expectation here.

The Souls games aren't about LARPing, they are basically glorified arcade games. I don't even know where you guys get this idea there was supposed to be any "realism" in any of those games, including Elden Ring, when the whole point was always combat and you can't walk one inch in any of those game without having to defend yourself from something that's trying to kill you.

You wouldn't ask for realism in a Doom game so why do it for this. Just because it's an RPG doesn't change what it is at heart: an action game.
 
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yeah, an action game for G N O S T I C S

speaking of, I love how Ofnir is sorta like Anasurimbor Kellhus + Socrates. I wondered why they called him all-knowing when it was clear he wasn't omniscient and was thirsty as fuck for information. His eventual explanation/reveal is pretty dope
 

Lyric Suite

Converting to Islam
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BTW, i need to clarify something here. I'm talking about realism in the way the world is presented (as an actual functioning reality).

There's also realism in terms of aesthetic and mood and this is something that i would consider to be important. DS1, while still being very high fantasy, did have a "grounded" aesthetic which i appreciated more than the hyperfantasy found in DS3 and now Elden Ring.

Likewise, i generally prefer the more natural aesthetic of FromSoftware games in general as opposed to the pew pew fantasy of some competing franchises, like Nioh.

Call it a western prejudige but i found this element important in my appreciation of this particular company. But as far as "realism" like having people working fields, NPCs that aren't hostile, shit like radiant AI (lul) etc, i never expected anything like that because this isn't and was never meant to be like a western RPG.
 

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