From Software Elden Ring - From Software's new game with writing by GRRM

[Skinwalker]

It literally says being children of a single god makes you empyrean

It doesn't say that you have to be a child of a single god to be empyrean. Again, "all golden retrievers are dogs" is not the same as "all dogs are golden retrievers". If you're not getting this, then I cannot teach you basic logical fallacies. Consider getting a brain transplant.

 

[Silva]

I keep struggling to reconcile the mythic and cosmic sides in the setting. Love the small details, hate the big picture. Probably because I expected more of the mythic when I saw Limgrave and the Arthuriana and Golden Order prophets and shit, but then that's just veneer for the Lovecraftian cosmicism. A pattern that worked great in Bloodborne, not so much here.

Oh well. I must suppress the storyfag in me.

 

[Efe]

putting aside your retard attitude. you seem to be using logic in wrong order/direction.

All pugs are dogs. As such they are all good boys.
Pugs are good boys because they are dogs and dogs are good boys.

Miquella and Malenia are both the children of a single god. As such they are both Empyreans, but suffered afflictions from birth.

M&M are children of a single god. As such they are both empyreans.
M&M are both empyreans because they are children of a single god.

https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/as_such

4. Being as previously mentioned or described.
I'm a mother of four young children; as such, I'm always rushed off my feet.

 

[Nathir]

Iirc that description is the only one in the game which even attempts to explain how an Empyrean is made. And there are no vague words being used like "It is believed that" or things like that. Also, again, the rune of the unborn is similar to Malenia's rune. Not to Radahns and Rykards.

 

[Silva]

Skinwalker my faggot friend, why did you delete the post? Here, I'm answering it anyway..

I think Elden Ring setting actually blends those elements rather well, when it presents the mythic elements coming from the cosmic ones

I see how this makes sense from a diegetical point of view, that is, from a person living inside the setting, and in this ER is well done indeed.

My issue is more about the flavor and feeling the setting evokes on the player/real person consuming it as a work of fiction. See, the good "mythical" works in my experience manage to submerge the reader/player in those fictional people's superstitious mindset, suspending disbelief in some key moments.
For example, Bernard Cornwell's Arthurian books enact that vibe on me when it makes Merlin's mists summoning this uncertain mix of psychology, natural knowledge and supernatural that could very well be atributed to the later even for the reader. This last it is important, it makes the reader uncertain if that shit is magic or not. Same for Glorantha's King of Dragon Pass videogame which forces the player to drop real 21st century world logic and immerse in that fictional culture beliefs in order to succeed (I suspect Tolkien stories also enact this kind of feeling in ther reader but I could never get past it's writting so I'm not sure). THAT's what I'm talking here.

Maybe I'm talking more about the ephemeral, abstract vibes a work of fiction evoke more than concrete elements in settings. I just know that Bloodborne made me feel a little of the despair of HPL cosmicism, in trying to make sense of the murky Yharnam "reality", and Dragon Pass made me feel the superstitious thought that real world bronze age cultures must have felt. Here? I feel neither. For all the great world building (and amazing lore pieces!) Elden Ring presents, it feels vapid in feelings, in élan.

Don't know if I'm expressing well here. My stiff English may be showing. And I'm droping this topic as my nobody is caring anyway.

 

[Skinwalker]

Also, again, the rune of the unborn is similar to Malenia's rune.

Iirc it is an asset that was originally designed to be Miquella's rune (which is why it's also golden). They cut a lot of stuff related to Miquella and Malenia from the game.

They've likely also changed a lot of other stuff in development, and left references to previous designs that no longer make sense.

E.g. the "Three Sisters" is a completely meaningless location name in the final version. Yes, I get that it's a fanciful reference to the three towers of the area, but it's obviously meant to refer to something more meaningful than that.

And yet, the three towers are named after Renna, Ranni, and... Seluvis. Seluvis is the third sister? And Renna ends up being some witch that mentored Ranni a long time ago, and is long dead or something. Why would Ranni introduce herself as Renna, it's almost the exact same name.

Unless... Renna was originally supposed to be a character in the game, a distinct person from Ranni... her sister. And who would be the third sister, then?

Why, none other than Melina. The parallels between Melina and Ranni are numerous (they are mirror images of one another, one representing fire/sun/faith, the other frost/moon/magic), but no real connection exists between them. Leaves a strong feeling of something rewritten/rearranged from its original design.

 

[Skinwalker]

4. Being as previously mentioned or described.
I'm a mother of four young children; as such, I'm always rushed off my feet.

Right, so this does not mean that if someone is "always rushed off their feet" then they can only be a mother of four young children. A mother of three (or five) young children could also be someone who is "always rushed off their feet". Or a whole bunch of other people.

Your logical fallacy is assuming that if all X are Y then all Y are also X. This is not (necessarily) true. All "children of a single god" are empyreans, but this does not mean that all empyreans must be "children of a single god".

All pugs are dogs. As such they are all good boys.
Pugs are good boys because they are dogs and dogs are good boys.

Right. And you're the moron who repeatedly insists that therefore, only pugs can be good boys. This does not logically follow. Or that only dogs can be good boys. Which also does not follow.

For example, I have a cat who is neither a dog nor a pug, and he is nevertheless a good boy. Your tortured "logic" just got BTFO.

 

[Efe]

What you say would be true if I said "All empyreans are born of single god"
I said "M&M are both empyreans because they are children of a single god."

And it is the only clearly stated requirement for being empyrean. whatever else you think besides "I don't know" is your headcanon

 

[DJOGamer PT]

I have a cat who is neither a dog nor a pug, and he is nevertheless a good boy.

Eh
Gullible idiot

 

[Skinwalker]

What you say would be true if I said "All empyreans are born of single god"

That's what Nathir originally said, and I've been arguing against this whole time. Then you jumped in.

Considering Ranni is an Emyprean, who are explicitly stated to be beings born of a single god, It's true that Renalla can't be her mother.

Maybe next time you join an argument, actually check what people are claiming, genius?

And it is the only clearly stated requirement for being empyrean.

It is not a requirement. Not a necessary requirement, at any rate. Ranni is the daughter of Renalla and Radagon, and she is an empyrean. The idea that she's secretly Marika's daughter is your and/or Nathir's headcanon, and "Miquella and Malenia are empyreans born of a single god, therefore all empyreans must be born of a single god" is a logical fallacy.

 

[Nathir]

Yeah, it isn't literally a 100% confirmed fact that that is the only condition for an empyrean. I might have worded that poorly. But I still stand behind everything I said.

As for the bit about cut content, cut content doesn't matter it got cut for a reason. All that matters is what's in the game. And I doubt they would make such a huge oversight. And again, all the demigods get a great rune after the shattering. Ranni doesn't. It is said because she slew her flesh, but who gets the great rune? The amber egg. Rennalla herself does not hold a great rune, the egg does.

You can disagree with everything I've said, personally I think it's undisputable that Ranni came from the amber egg. And yeah, Melina is definitely Rannis sister. Or more accurately, was probably born from Marika only via some kind of magic and is probably an Empyrean too.

 

[Efe]

It is not a requirement. Not a necessary requirement, at any rate. Ranni is the daughter of Renalla and Radagon, and she is an empyrean.

It is a direct cause of it. that makes it a requirement.
Considering all that we don't know and is vague, maybe not the only path to that state but nevertheless it is at least one of requirements.
There is no other piece of text in game that tells you what makes someone empyrean.
you know ranni is an empyrean but you don't know whether she was born of a single god or not.

 

[Skinwalker]

you know ranni is an empyrean but you don't know whether she was born of a single god or not.

You know she wasn't because she was born of Renalla. Anything else is your headcanon.

You can disagree with everything I've said, personally I think it's undisputable that Ranni came from the amber egg. And yeah, Melina is definitely Rannis sister. Or more accurately, was probably born from Marika only via some kind of magic and is probably an Empyrean too.

Your headcanon.

 

[Silva]

Stop the shit semantics talk, please

 

[Baron Dupek]

it's over

 

[Lyric Suite]

To be honest i never gave much of a shit about this lore crap. I just like the aesthetic and tone of those games. The lore itself is not something i ever felt was "key" for me. Not to say it can't be enjoyable to try to figure it out but for me it doesn't really matter one way or another.

There's just something to be said about games that just let you soak into their world without forcing you to follow an explicit narrative. I think the latter tendency is what led to games becoming "cinematic", or wanting to be like movies etc. I mean what was the plot in Doom? Right, there wasn't any, but the enviorments just oozed atmosphere and it was easy to become totally immersed in them, and the experience was far more meaningful than nu-Doom with its extensive "lore" and metric ton of text the game dumbs at you, all of which is poorly written drivel (the sequel more so than the 2016 version, which had a somewhat coherent sci-fi plot at least).

Video game writing is not particularly great even in the best case scenario so there's some merit to the idea the less is said the better. Half Life 2 decided to "expand" on the story of the first game and in my opinon they ended up with something that was not as good. The original said less but said it better. Nowadays most modern games seem to favor the opposite approach. There's constant talking and text in all of them and it's all trite. Maybe FromSoft takes it to an extreme (at least in the Souls games Sekiro had a much more explicit narrative and it wasn't a bad one either, so it's not like they can't do it) but hey, as long as they nail the aesthetic aspect of the game i can live without knowing whether Ranni is an empyrean or any crap like that.

 

[Damned Registrations]

Video game writing is not particularly great even in the best case scenario so there's some merit to the idea the less is said the better.

I was listening to FFT music while reading your post and it made mw consider it's story, which I consider to be one of it's good points and possibly my favourite of any video game. It feels like a long, detailed story, but it's actually very cut down and succinct. There's a ton of extra flavour text in the background; various dossiers on characters related to the plot, many of whom are theoretically important but not actually featured in the game, such as the king and his relatives. And there's some snippets of news once in a while or descriptions of places or treasures to help establish the setting, again, optional. But the actual plot itself is told in very few words all things considered, and most of that direct dialogue at very key moments with parts in between crucial battles and meetings glossed over with a time skip and very brief explanation. I could summarize the entire plot in about a paragraph:

Delita (a commoner) and Ramza (a noble) are a pair of young knights fresh out of the academy and close friends. Ramza's home is raided by bandits, who mistake Delita's sister for a noble they can ransom. Upon tracking down the bandits, the sister is shot by order of Ramza's brother, and Delita swears vengeance on the nobility as a whole while Ramza effectively disowns his family and becomes a mercenary. Delita manages to infilitrate both sides of a succession war as a double agent, killing key figures, kidnapping a princess, and eventually claims the throne, becoming a central figure in history . Ramza, meanwhile, discovers an entirely unrelated plot by the church to conceal the history of some demon summoning artifacts, is branded a heretic, and eventualy puts a stop to the demons and fades into obscurity despite having likely saved the world. Delita and Ramza cross paths several times during the story after separating early on, but are never in direct conflict or return to being close friends or allies.

That is, essentially, the entire plot for a 30+ hour game, aside from some particular details about which people get knifed for what exact reasons. I can remember the whole damned thing because it's relatively simple, logical, and has a consistent theme of power and greed leading to evil. I've played many RPGs with far more convoluted plots, even for shorter games, and they're much less memorable and satisfying than this one, which doesn't even have a proper resolution to one of it's central conflicts! More game authors should take note of the story in that game instead of trying to fit the god damned bootleg silmarillion in between snippets of gameplay.

 

[Skinwalker]

To be honest i never gave much of a shit about this lore crap. I just like the aesthetic and tone of those games. The lore itself is not something i ever felt was "key" for me.

It's not key for me either, but it is amusing to muse on the various details that do or don't add up. Especially when you're left with a weird feeling of a narrative that went through multiple last-minute rewrites.

 

[DJOGamer PT]

To be honest i never gave much of a shit about this lore crap. I just like the aesthetic and tone of those games.

Aesthetic and tone which were crafted in conjuntion with the lore
In these games the two are inseparable and fundamentally wouldn't be possible without the other

I think the latter tendency is what led to games becoming "cinematic"

"Cinematic" qualities are fine for linear games (which is where they are most employed anyway)
When well done it makes the experience more memorable
Not to mention "cinematic" qualities in games aren't exclusive to cutscenes and set-pieces, they can also be weaved into the gameplay to great effect

Video game writing is not particularly great even in the best case scenario so there's some merit to the idea the less is said the better.

While less can be more, if no one is willing to push the envelope then we're certaintly never going to get something "great"
This is particularly detrimental for videogames given their peculiarity as a storytelling medium

Also have you played Pathologic 2?

 

[Damned Registrations]

they can also be weaved into the gameplay to great effect

Great detrimental effect, perhaps. The fucking glory kills used in so many action games (including backstabs and ripostes in souls games) are fucking cancer and if I had a time machine and two bullets they both get used on the guy that invented them. Seeing someone do the exact same lengthy animation over and over again isn't thrilling, it's fucking comical and boring. It's as bad as giving voice overs to enemies and hearing the exact same fucking voice line from a hundred different fucking bandits.

 

[DJOGamer PT]

Great beneficial effect actually
I was thinking more in lines of cinematography when I said that - how the camera can be used to exert control over the player

But your complaint about longer animations is superficial
Longer animations are a very effective way to balance more powerful moves and introduce some much good risk/reward
Longer animations are also needed to portray more complex body movements, which in turn can be used to add greater depth to the combat - we're talking about parries, grapples and super moves, if you had your way and these things didn't exist then all of the best brawlers ever made would lose an too much mechanical depth and ultimately fun
Since you also specifically mentioned "glory kills" I know thinking about the nuDoom brand of canned animation, which is a silly complaint as the animations are all fairly quick and have an essential gameplay function in the combat - "uh but classic doom didn't need that shit", nuDoom is intentionally going for a distinct gameplay experience, comparing it to what classic Doom is going for is just inherently fallacious and kinda stupid
Finally when tastefully applied they emphasize the action rather than interrupt it, plus spectacle and good game feel IS a big part of the appeal of action games
This is even a big reason why From games are so benevoled for their combat despite the fact that mechanically they're aren't anything special (Sekiro is a particular proof of this)

As for voice-overs
Complex stealth games literally wouldn't be as immersive without them
Not to mention they do indisputably add to a game's atmosphere and charm you N'wah

 

[Barbarian]

The aesthetics in this game are superb, even the voice acting turned out fine for some reason(I'm sure there was very little direction in that regard).

That more than helps with the impact of a sparse lore or even inconsistent lore. Like I said this game pulls you in in a way that none of the TES games could.

Would text dumps Improve the game? I don't think so. Would long winded monologues and dialogue trees instead of the sparse conversations with npcs make for better exposition? I don't think so.

The dlc will likely add a lot of content to the existing quests and characters if bloodborne dlc is anything to go by. Maybe some of the problems discussed in this thread will be fixed.

 

[DJOGamer PT]

That more than helps with the impact of a sparse lore or even inconsistent lore.

Perhaps, but I wasn't disputting that
Rather I am saying that not only were the aesthetics designed to complement the lore, they were also "guided" by the lore during their design
As such they wouldn't be possible without said lore

Like I said this game pulls you in in a way that none of the TES games could.

Says you
I say Morrowind still btfo of ER in allure
Further more, I doubt this game will as well remembered in 20 years as Morrowind is
Besides ER is still objectively inferior in atmosphere, aesthetics, music and narrative to its progenitor - Demon's Souls

Would text dumps Improve the game? I don't think so. Would long winded monologues and dialogue trees instead of the sparse conversations with npcs make for better exposition? I don't think so.

Those charateristics wouldn't improve ER, because ER is not the type of game experience that would benefit from them - it's a combat focused jRPG with a limited degree of open-endedness to it's open-world, which in it's essence seeks to present a challenging action heavy high-fantasy adventure
While TES from the very beginning was conceived as exploration heavy RPG sandbox (the latter implying focus on a high degree of interactivity, reactivity and near total open-endedness), which above all other qualities seeks to virtually simulate a high-fantasy world from it's more "tangible" elements (the physical world itself and it's inhabitants) and the all way up to its more abstract elements (such as history, cultures and philosophies)

And that's why complex dialogues systems work in TES, but wouldn't work in ER

 

[Barbarian]

I liked Morrowind, but I think this did "enter and explore this original alien fantasy world" much better in most regards. That includes the sparse lore - or "make shit up as you go along" lore as some here call Miyazaki's "storytelling" antics.

There is a technological bias being that this is literal latest gen AAA gaming, but it is what it is.

It is a better walking simulator and the actual gameplay is better, ITT.

 

[Barbarian]

And that's why complex dialogues systems work in TES, but wouldn't work in ER

Sorry, but what complex dialogue? I remember sneaking around that fag elf to find his hidden stash and not much else.

Most morrowind npcs had either info dumps or straight up nonsense.