From Software Elden Ring - From Software's new game with writing by GRRM

[Skinwalker]

Lies of Poo is basically "baby's first Dark Souls", it is vastly inferior even to Lords of the Fallen, let alone real soulsgames. It doesn't even rise to the level of "we have dark souls at home".

It is a inbuilt flaw of the souls formula. In DS1 they made the choice to have few NPCs with sparse dialog and it just stuck as a staple even though it no longer fits the game. The world would really benefit from having more NPCs with some quests and actual dialog. It would certainly be more immersive to find some soldier bemoaning how the scarlet rot drove his compatriots to madness rather than reading about it in the description of some recolored thong piece.

They already implemented this concept in Elden Ring by adding a whole bunch of exposition ghosts, and I don't think it added much of value to the game.

 

[Damned Registrations]

I don't think it added much of value to the game.

Maybe it would have added more if any of the ghosts weren't of drunken alzheimer's patients tripping balls. I can't remember a single thing about any of the ghosts except that I couldn't understand what the fuck they were on about.

Game easily had room for twice as many quest NPCs. IMO they should double down on that aspect of the series, have more quests, make more of them mutually exclusive, and tie more of the rewards and boss fights into them- it would make different people's playthroughs more unique and give a better reason to replay.

 

[Skinwalker]

I don't think it added much of value to the game.

Maybe it would have added more if any of the ghosts weren't of drunken alzheimer's patients tripping balls. I can't remember a single thing about any of the ghosts except that I couldn't understand what the fuck they were on about.

It's the trademark Miyazaki style, which is not too hard to understand if you activate a few braincells, and pay attention. Especially in Elden Ring, when the ghosts are literally always pointed at the thing they are talking about. Like, open your eyes, lol.

Game easily had room for twice as many quest NPCs.

I wouldn't mind it, but a much bigger problem is the opaque quest designs for the NPCs which they already have. They put more effort into making quest triggers comprehensible in this game than any previous one, but there are still quests where you have no way of knowing how to progress unless you randomly run into the next event, or guidescum.

 

[Silva]

And even the chardev and build customization wasn't as bad. In the end the combat was my only real complaint. In hindsight it's a solid 7-8/10, depending on how much the stupid gotcha combat gets on your nerves.

Lies of P has a similar problem to Sekiro. It does not properly make the player aware that some attacks are meant to be dodged and some are meant to be parried.

Yeah kindda. My biggest problem tho is the erratic, "puppety" movement of most mobs, consisting of jerky, robotic swings with barely any windups or tells, making them extremely annoying to read and react to.

You just can't rely on your reactions most of the time, you literally have to memorize entire attack patterns to come up on top, with all the usual delays and fake-outs to boot. I actually liked the rest of the game enough to put up with this, all the way to the final level when I finally got enough. I think I had like 2 hours until the final boss when I uninstalled the game.

I agree it's hard to read enemies' moves in Lies of P, which coupled with the parry window being even smaller than Sekiro, makes for some frustrating encounters.

OTOH it's balance between parry-block-dodge feels real nice. You can confidently adopt whatever style you prefer and it feels (well, so far) more or less balanced. Very different for eg from DS3 or ER where dodging/rolling is king, BB where parry is king, DS1 where shields/poise is king, etc. I can't see a clearly optimal style here, and this feels surprisingly refreshing for a souls game IMO.

 

[Silva]

 

[9ted6]

It is a inbuilt flaw of the souls formula. In DS1 they made the choice to have few NPCs with sparse dialog and it just stuck as a staple even though it no longer fits the game. The world would really benefit from having more NPCs with some quests and actual dialog. It would certainly be more immersive to find some soldier bemoaning how the scarlet rot drove his compatriots to madness rather than reading about it in the description of some recolored thong piece.

They already implemented this concept in Elden Ring by adding a whole bunch of exposition ghosts, and I don't think it added much of value to the game.

That's more because the writing sucks. Elden Ring's world is fundamentally limited, dumb and uninteresting. There's not much you could do to present it any better, because any reveal is going to be more of the same shit lore.

The other Soulsbornes aren't much better. Even DS1 fumbles it here and there but besides Sekiro it somehow manages to present the most coherent world and understandable NPCs of any other From game. At least its NPCs mostly talk like real people and don't puke exposition in incomprehensible pseudo Shakespeare melodrama like ER's. You know why the knight is at Firelink's and why he's depressed. You don't know why there's a turtle with a pope hat talking to you.

 

[Skinwalker]

You know why the knight at Firelink's depressed. You don't know why there's a turtle with a pope hat.

Apples to oranges. I can just as easily say, you know why Gideon Offnir is tired and dismissive at first. You don't know why there's two giant snake muppets with hideous teeth trying to guide the protagonist into prolonging or ending the Age of Fire.

 

[9ted6]

You know why the knight at Firelink's depressed. You don't know why there's a turtle with a pope hat.

You don't know why there's two giant snake muppets with hideous teeth trying to guide the protagonist into prolonging or ending the Age of Fire.

Sure you do, they both tell you. One's an ancient snake guy who was a servant to Gwyn and is now seeking Gwyn's successor to link the fire and stave off the Dark. The other's an ancient snake guy who's more of a rebel that wants to overthrow Gwyn and end the Age of Fire and from what he says and what you see his motives are highly suspect. Frampt isn't telling you the whole story either but he seems like he's altruistic.

Both tell you very plainly what they want you to do (link the Fire, don't link the Fire) and why they want you to do it (succeed Gwyn and stop the Darkness, overthrow Gwyn and allow humanity to rule).

You never know why they're big goofy snakes but you know what they're about, what they want and why they want it and they tell it to you straight. It's a fantasy setting, you can make some suspensions of disbelief. In Elden Ring nothing is ever told to you straight. No one ever speaks in a straightforward and unobtuse way. Everyone talks in circles and dances around the simplest of points with forced flowery language because that's what they thought was good fantasy writing.

Gideon and Ranni never plainly tell you who they are, the things they want or why they want them. Even the most basic details are layered under mountains of circletalking expository rambling. I don't know if that's GRRM or Miyazaki's fault but it's night and day how much more understable and clear DS1 is, and how its story is easier to get invested in than ER's.

 

[Skinwalker]

Sure you do, they both tell you. One's an ancient snake guy who was a servant to Gwyn and is now seeking Gwyn's successor to link the fire and stave off the Dark. The other's an ancient snake guy who's more of a rebel that wants to overthrow Gwyn and end the Age of Fire and from what he says and what you see his motives are highly suspect. Frampt isn't telling you the whole story either but he seems like he's altruistic.

And the turtle with the pope's hat tells you that he is the steward of the Church of Vows where Radagon and Renalla joined the houses of the Erdtree and the Moon in matrimony, and is full of information on both of these individuals. Which he gives you freely, directly and unobtusely. He doesn't know everything, but then, why should he.

You never know why he's a big goofy turtle but you know what he's about (serving the Erdtree and the Academy), what he wants (to guide the Tarnished on their quest) and why he wants it (because everything is shit). It's a fantasy setting, you can make some suspensions of disbelief.

Otoh, DS1 is completely obtuse on the matter of what these ugly snakes even are, where they come from, why one of them is serving Gwyn when he was a notorious exterminator of dragons, what the other snake even has to gain from extinguishing the flame, and why there are a whole bunch of other snakes all hanging out somewhere underground. You don't even know if they're really snakes, or have bodies with limbs and a very long neck.

Gideon and Ranni never plainly tell you who they are, the things they want or why they want them.

You figure out their motivations as you progress through the game. Ranni has an extended series of monologues where she details her backstory, her plot, her reasons for doing what she did in the past and is doing now, and her end goal (becoming the new goddess of a new age).

Gideon also tells you quite plainly that he is seeking to become Elden Lord, and that his best bet for the time being is helping you open the Erdtree's inner chamber. After you accomplish this, he beats you to the inner chamber, and then reveals that he's looked into the mind of Marika and has given up any hope of becoming Elden Lord, because Marika wants one of the Tarnished to kill the Elden Beast, and he thinks that it's impossible ("I know in my bones that no Tarnished can defeat a god").

 

[Zed Duke of Banville]

 

[Stoned Ape]

Pictures

I thought the talking tortoise was a nice surreal twist. Elden Ring does have a sort of dreamlike/nightmarish feel about it which is probably the thing about the game that I enjoyed most.

 

[Child of Malkav]

Fascinating stuff. But why is he a tortoise and has a pope hat on it?

 

[Cyberarmy]

Because he is the Pope? (and shitting in woods...)

 

[MasPingon]

Fascinating stuff. But why is he a tortoise and has a pope hat on it?

We got weasel with pope hat on it, in Elden Ring it's a tortoise. Nothing out of ordinary.

 

[Child of Malkav]

So in ER universe the pope is a tortoise? Whatever....and people wonder why no one takes any lore in FS games seriously.
Oh well, at least the erdtree and the moon go brrrr.

 

[cvv]

So in ER universe the pope is a tortoise?

If you want it to be?

FS lores are like legos. Miyazaki gives you little cubes and you build whatever you like with them.

 

[MasPingon]

So in ER universe the pope is a tortoise? Whatever....and people wonder why no one takes any lore in FS games seriously.
Oh well, at least the erdtree and the moon go brrrr.

In all seriousness it's not a pope hat, I doubt there were popes in ER world. It just serves a ceremonial function. Like in any culture master of the ceremony got to have a cool hat.

 

[Child of Malkav]

In all seriousness it's not a pope hat

It may not have the exact, minute details and shape but it's the clear inspiration for it and it was named appropriately.

 

[MasPingon]

In all seriousness it's not a pope hat

It may not have the exact, minute details and shape but it's the clear inspiration for it and it was named appropriately.

Yeah, pope hat is clear inspiration, but that's just it.

Thinking about it, it's not just that. Tortoise in many cultures symbolize creation, good luck and longevity. For example in Stephen King's It, a Turtle was an opposing force to It, which was pure chaos and entrophy. In this case the turtle is, as he call himself, a steward of Church of Vows, master of a ceremony during which houses of Erdtree and Moon were join and Radagon and Ranalla made their oath to build a bright future. In Christianity, pope is a Vicar of Christ, all good son of perfect God. It's rare, but he could also perform the sacrament of marriage. So it's inspiration seems to be pretty straightforward.

 

[Silva]

So in ER universe the pope is a tortoise? Whatever....and people wonder why no one takes any lore in FS games seriously.
Oh well, at least the erdtree and the moon go brrrr.

In all seriousness it's not a pope hat, I doubt there were popes in ER world. It just serves a ceremonial function. Like in any culture master of the ceremony got to have a cool hat.

Emphasis mine. What exactly is "ER world"? Because all I see is a hodge-podge of different colored lands with caravans crossing to nowhere. This kind of semi-formed, dreamlike worldbuilding works in DS and BB cause their worlds are mythical and dreamlike in nature. It doesn't work in ER cause it's open-world attempts to communicate across the feeling of a real, inhabited place and it fails miserably at it, never feeling like a real place (the caravans feel artificial) nor entirely mythical or dreamlike. In the end, all it feels is bland.


(of course, ER blandness still feels better than 90% of the industry due to From art direction being so good but you know what I mean)

 

[gabel]

I played through Elden Ring twice, once as a Sorcerer and then with a mid-roll strength-build.
But for some reason I don't look foward to the expansion at all. :/

 

[Ravielsk]

You don't know why there's two giant snake muppets with hideous teeth trying to guide the protagonist into prolonging or ending the Age of Fire.

A mistake made a second time does not cease to be a mistake.
Frampt and Kaathe not even attempting to explain themselves as beings was a mistake in Dark Souls and so its a mistake to randomly plop down a turtle pope. The only difference is that in DS you can cope with it by pretending that they just refused to tell you anything about themselves and there is no one to ask. ER has a dude named "THE ALL-KNOWING" and you cannot even ask him about official dignitaries of the ER world.

A world the player only barely understands is not a world the player can really care about. Suspension of disbelief is required for anything fantasy but there is a limit to how far you can take it before it essentially becomes a parody of itself.

 

[Skinwalker]

Frampt and Kaathe not even attempting to explain themselves as beings was a mistake in Dark Souls

They are plot-relevant NPCs that are central to the game's story, and you have no idea what they are, where they came from, what their deal is, or why no one has ever mentioned them before.

Turtle pope is just a curiosity. There's no reason why this world shouldn't have a sentient giant turtle. Everything doesn't need to be explained just for the sake of explaining.

I found it refreshing that ER did not try to "systematize" and "normalize" every single shitting detail, like WRPGs feel obligated to do. Giant talking turtle go brrrrrrr, lulz.

 

[MasPingon]

So in ER universe the pope is a tortoise? Whatever....and people wonder why no one takes any lore in FS games seriously.
Oh well, at least the erdtree and the moon go brrrr.

In all seriousness it's not a pope hat, I doubt there were popes in ER world. It just serves a ceremonial function. Like in any culture master of the ceremony got to have a cool hat.

Emphasis mine. What exactly is "ER world"? Because all I see is a hodge-podge of different colored lands with caravans crossing to nowhere. This kind of semi-formed, dreamlike worldbuilding works in DS and BB cause their worlds are mythical and dreamlike in nature. It doesn't work in ER cause it's open-world attempts to communicate across the feeling of a real, inhabited place and it fails miserably at it, never feeling like a real place (the caravans feel artificial) nor entirely mythical or dreamlike. In the end, all it feels is bland.


(of course, ER blandness still feels better than 90% of the industry due to From art direction being so good but you know what I mean)

I find it fascinating we don't exactly know what Lands Between are. Probably because I like Lovecraftian style of iceberg storytelling. The one where you give a reader about 20% of what you actually prepered and ask "Why the hell should I tell you more? Why do you even should now how things work?". There are primeval beings who knows only a fraction of truth, why should you be all knowing? I don't have a feeling it tries to be real, inhabited place. It is a world shuttered both physically and metaphysically, you can see it watching a landscape and by interacting with NPC's. Some of them are literally fractures of what they were, when they were whole. Rennala is in katatonic state, her psyche snapped under the weight of loss - she is obssesed with her Amber Egg, constantly giving rebirth to those poor pupils of her, desperately trying to act like if Caria is at the peak of its greatness. Radahn is a shell of who he was, eaten by a rot, the only thing he got left is his might, any other part if his humanity gone. Radahn soldiers, bound to him by an admiration for his courage still fight the rot in Caelid, that's all they do. The caravan moves from place to place with the same route everyday. Do they even remember who to deliver? Fuck if I know, but it seems to me they don't know either. They are fracture of their beings, they are one dimmentional shells, stripped of their purpose. What you see is a shutter of who they were. There is Melicent, who only know a part of who she is after you give her unalloyed gold needle made by Miquella to stop an enthropy. There are only couple of entities that feels like they've kept their mind/reason/beings. That's how I see it playing the game, so it doesn't seem odd to me there is no "real" life there.

 

[Silva]

I agree with the gist of your post. I just don't think the Lands Between is a good example of that Lovecraftian style. Specially when Yharnam already exists.

ER's outer gods feel unnecessary and not fitting the euro fantasy milieu. I'd rather they went full "medieval Lovecraft" instead of this Arthurian-Norse-Welsh fairytale kitchen sink.