From Software Elden Ring - From Software's new game with writing by GRRM

[Hell Swarm]

no map, no clear/limited routes or directly visible poi -> you have to methodically "map" the area while exploring

Except you don't because fast travel is in play. Also, what's stopping Fromsoft from making clear routes and also allowing for free roam?

So...

- ER is DS sequel + open world
- they add a map for the open world
- you say map is not needed and point to Bethesda open worlds who have a map as an example of how to do it
- what works in Bethesda open worlds with a map should work in ER without a map because DS didn't have a map

Do you stand by that logic?

Yes. Elden Ring, in my view, shouldn't have bothered with a map considering that previous entries in its own series made worlds that could be navigated without and it's inclusion is a concession to a more casual audience. Simultaneously, Bethesda and Obsidian have made open world settings that better utilize clearly marked 'intended' paths and points of interest despite their use of maps.

Here comes the "it's bad faith because I can't respond to your argument posts" again.

Elden Ring's map has always been controversial. It's poorly sign posted for a map that big and often is empty if you take anything but the main path. If this is the design they were going for they should have made the main path more obvious since almost everything else is worthless.

Lastly and I'm sure this will set the retards off. Elden Ring doesn't have a map like other open world games do because From as fucking stupid and decided they know when I should be able to look at the map and shouldn't. Any other open world game I can open the map and maybe pause the game. Instead From decide if you have enemy aggro (or maybe not) the map won't open. The button just stops working. So you can run past a slow moving slime with no ranged attack. It won't reach you for a good 2 minutes and you get the "No map for you faggot!" noise over and over. Even if you want to argue Elden ring should have a map (I think it should) the way it's implemented is peak From quality. It fucking sucks. It's annoying. If they didn't want you to fast travel to escape combat they should have made bonfire teleporting again like every other souls game. But instead we have this half arsed hybrid of bullshit.

 

[abija]

Am I to understand you also agree to that logic?

 

[NJClaw]

bosses are totally impossible to beat legit and can only be beat with cheese, specifically

So people still haven't found out how to equip a greatshield? I see.

Elden Ring's map has always been controversial. It's poorly sign posted for a map that big and often is empty if you take anything but the main path. If this is the design they were going for they should have made the main path more obvious since almost everything else is worthless.

I'm sorry if I join the conversation without full context, but what do you mean by "make the main path more obvious"? And more importantly, are you talking about the DLC or the base game?

Lastly and I'm sure this will set the retards off. Elden Ring doesn't have a map like other open world games do because From as fucking stupid and decided they know when I should be able to look at the map and shouldn't. Any other open world game I can open the map and maybe pause the game. Instead From decide if you have enemy aggro (or maybe not) the map won't open. The button just stops working. So you can run past a slow moving slime with no ranged attack. It won't reach you for a good 2 minutes and you get the "No map for you faggot!" noise over and over. Even if you want to argue Elden ring should have a map (I think it should) the way it's implemented is peak From quality. It fucking sucks. It's annoying. If they didn't want you to fast travel to escape combat they should have made bonfire teleporting again like every other souls game. But instead we have this half arsed hybrid of bullshit.

The amount of time you are unable to open the map in a full playthrough because there's a slow moving slime with no ranged attack next to you is less than what it took you to write this post though.

 

[Hell Swarm]

The amount of time you are unable to open the map in a full playthrough because there's a slow moving slime with no ranged attack next to you is less than what it took you to write this post though.

No it isn't. If you're riding around looking for something or trying to get to a specific point you will regularly have an enemy aggroed some where off screen that's no threat to you. It's a constant annoyance.

DLC map is as bad as the main map, just in different ways.

 

[Strange Fellow]

So people still haven't found out how to equip a greatshield? I see.

I'm afraid that's cheese, you're obviously following a guide and should commit sudoku immediately.

 

[Ravielsk]

The map itself is fine. The problem is the world its attached to. Elden Ring has some kind of intended progression for the player but that progression is not really signposted beyond "there is the big boss guy". This creates a problem as to what is and is not and is not expected of the player. So when you encounter a problem you can be never sure if its a problem born of your lack of skill or low level or a missing piece of equipment or something else entirely.

A fine example of this is how vitality scales. When the game launched most people did not level vitality because no one knew how quickly it can take you from sub 500HP to over 1000HP. This made bosses like Margit or even Radhan needlessly difficult because the game made no effort to signpost the expected statline to the player. Or for example summons. Are they meant to be used as part of your base kit or not? Is poisoning Margit with the jelly fish the intended way of beating him or a crutch? I have to ask because of the way summons skew the early game difficulty towards the significantly easier side but then peter out in mid to late game(with a few exceptions).

All of this came to the forefront with the DLC because as it turned out most players were not running hyper optimized builds and so a DLC made for hyper optimized builds kicked their ass(myself included).

 

[Strange Fellow]

None of these are problems if you have a functioning brain. Oh no, the bosses don't come with "you must be this tall to enter" signposts? Maybe they should make the fights impossible to enter at low level, or introduce level scaling? Fuck off with this decline bullshit.

 

[Lyric Suite]

So people still haven't found out how to equip a greatshield? I see.

I'm afraid that's cheese, you're obviously following a guide and should commit sudoku immediately.

Can't use tools the game provide, otherwise it doesn't count.

Like me using Vow of the Indominable to get past this boss attacks:



See, that's just cheese. Doesn't count.

 

[abija]

All of this came to the forefront with the DLC because as it turned out most players were not running hyper optimized builds and so a DLC made for hyper optimized builds kicked their ass(myself included).

Define hyper optimized build.

 

[Ravielsk]

Define hyper optimized build.

One main stat(preferably strenght but DEX is workable) brought to a its soft cap of 80. 50-60 VIT, around 40-50 END paired with a maxxed out weapon for status build up and a maxxed out great shield. Fully upgraded mimic, Tish or Dung Eater.

 

[Ghost Goat]

So no one wants to discuss the barren goyslop of Elden ring then? Oh well, I'm just gaslighting you any way. I haven't even played a From game lol.

I believe you or someone else had commented that the open world is empty, for the most part, and he spent most of his time riding around on Torrent. I agree, once the awe of scale wears off the world starts to feel empty and boring. The "3D Metroid" style of inter-connected zones works much better. Something like DS3 writ very large with the new features of Elden Ring would have made a better game, IMO.

 

[Hell Swarm]

Define hyper optimized build.

One main stat(preferably strenght but DEX is workable) brought to a its soft cap of 80. 50-60 VIT, around 40-50 END paired with a maxxed out weapon for status build up and a maxxed out great shield. Fully upgraded mimic, Tish or Dung Eater.

I would argue they're beyond optimised. By the time you start the DLC you're already way beyond needed stats. You either dump them into the generic health/weight or you put them in one of the other damage stats for an extra buff. Effectively every build is a quality build by the end of the DLC. Str/dex or your magic stat of choice getting double scaling on top of a 100% damage increase from fragments.

 

[Ghost Goat]

So people still haven't found out how to equip a greatshield? I see.

I'm afraid that's cheese, you're obviously following a guide and should commit sudoku immediately.

Can't use tools the game provide, otherwise it doesn't count.

Like me using Vow of the Indominable to get past this boss attacks:



See, that's just cheese. Doesn't count.

This game became a lot more fun after I switched to a giant hammer.

 

[Lyric Suite]

All of this came to the forefront with the DLC because as it turned out most players were not running hyper optimized builds and so a DLC made for hyper optimized builds kicked their ass(myself included).

Define hyper optimized build.

Rather than "optmized", i'd personally use a word like "specialized".

 

[Lyric Suite]

So people still haven't found out how to equip a greatshield? I see.

I'm afraid that's cheese, you're obviously following a guide and should commit sudoku immediately.

Can't use tools the game provide, otherwise it doesn't count.

Like me using Vow of the Indominable to get past this boss attacks:



See, that's just cheese. Doesn't count.

This game became a lot more fun after I switched to a giant hammer.

When in doubt, pancaking just solves everything.

 

[Hell Swarm]

All of this came to the forefront with the DLC because as it turned out most players were not running hyper optimized builds and so a DLC made for hyper optimized builds kicked their ass(myself included).

Define hyper optimized build.

Rather than "optmized", i'd personally use a word like "specialized".

Specalized means you have a single stat you're pushing to use a specific damage type. It doesn't mean you have 60 dex/str/vig and whatever endurance you have left over. Which is where the DLC characters end up because they're hitting level 180-200.

 

[Lyric Suite]

So no one wants to discuss the barren goyslop of Elden ring then? Oh well, I'm just gaslighting you any way. I haven't even played a From game lol.

I believe you or someone else had commented that the open world is empty, for the most part, and he spent most of his time riding around on Torrent. I agree, once the awe of scale wears off the world starts to feel empty and boring. The "3D Metroid" style of inter-connected zones works much better. Something like DS3 writ very large with the new features of Elden Ring would have made a better game, IMO.

I'm of the opinion Dark Souls 1 did it best and any attempt to try something else just doesn't work as well.

In Dark Souls 1 (and to some extend, Dark Souls 2, even if in that game that stuff got a bit awkard sometimes, like the frozen area lmao), the enviorment is as much of an "enemy" as the creatures you fight. Every area in that game had unique challenges, be it traps, puzzles, perilous ledges (which got increasingly harder, like in the hollow tree, or the roof above the entrance to the Painted World, or even got novel like the invisible ledges in the crystal cave etc), up to and including visibility (Tomb of Giants being one of the more misunderstood areas in this regard).

Elden Ring has some of this, but not as much. You do get some clever puzzles (some fairly great ones too, like in the Sainted Hero's Catacombs), and some cool traps, but ever since DS3 it feels they started to hold back a bit, and i can only presume it's because people bitched a bit too hard about DS1 and DS2.

 

[Lyric Suite]

All of this came to the forefront with the DLC because as it turned out most players were not running hyper optimized builds and so a DLC made for hyper optimized builds kicked their ass(myself included).

Define hyper optimized build.

Rather than "optmized", i'd personally use a word like "specialized".

Specalized means you have a single stat you're pushing to use a specific damage type. It doesn't mean you have 60 dex/str/vig and whatever endurance you have left over. Which is where the DLC characters end up because they're hitting level 180-200.

No what i mean is that if you want to rely on a particular approach you have to build for it, not just in terms of stats but also gear or talisman combination etc.

 

[abija]

One main stat(preferably strenght but DEX is workable) brought to a its soft cap of 80. 50-60 VIT, around 40-50 END paired with a maxxed out weapon for status build up and a maxxed out great shield. Fully upgraded mimic, Tish or Dung Eater.

I failed pretty much all of your "checks" and the DLC wasn't anything special. You might want to downgrade from "hyper optimized" to "not nonsensical".

 

[scytheavatar]

The map itself is fine. The problem is the world its attached to. Elden Ring has some kind of intended progression for the player but that progression is not really signposted beyond "there is the big boss guy". This creates a problem as to what is and is not and is not expected of the player. So when you encounter a problem you can be never sure if its a problem born of your lack of skill or low level or a missing piece of equipment or something else entirely.

A fine example of this is how vitality scales. When the game launched most people did not level vitality because no one knew how quickly it can take you from sub 500HP to over 1000HP. This made bosses like Margit or even Radhan needlessly difficult because the game made no effort to signpost the expected statline to the player. Or for example summons. Are they meant to be used as part of your base kit or not? Is poisoning Margit with the jelly fish the intended way of beating him or a crutch? I have to ask because of the way summons skew the early game difficulty towards the significantly easier side but then peter out in mid to late game(with a few exceptions).

All of this came to the forefront with the DLC because as it turned out most players were not running hyper optimized builds and so a DLC made for hyper optimized builds kicked their ass(myself included).

Anyone who has played past Souls games know how important health is and how improving it should be the top priority in early game. So I am not sure how it is possible "most people" didn't invest into vitality.

 

[NJClaw]

Anyone who has played past Souls games know how important health is and how improving it should be the top priority in early game. So I am not sure how it is possible "most people" didn't invest into vitality.

I'd say the majority of Elden Ring players haven't played earlier entries. ER sold around 25 million copies. Two times what every earlier game achieved.

Still, the amount of damage every enemy deals at the start of the game should be enough to realize leveling vigor is your priority.

 

[Max Damage]

Are they meant to be used as part of your base kit or not?

Considering how hard they are pushed on you (I once cleared a cave with two bosses and each dropped another fucking summon) and have upgrades, I'm pretty sure any answer other than "yes" is cope. You can't have readily available ability like that and somehow not design anything around it, spirit ashes require practically no build commitment besides sipping a flask.

 

[Lyric Suite]

I'm convinced all double or tripple boss fights in the original game were made specifically for spirit ashes. Spirit ashes were also made for the open world (amazing they didn't anticipate the next step further from there: extended co-op gameplay on the open map or the dungeons. Witness the popularity of the co-op mod).

In the DLC, it seems they are also pushing summons. Some NPCs won't progress in their quest unless you use them (i think it's only like two of them, or maybe just Igon, but just the fact they exist is telling. The only other FromSoft game i can remember that had a mandatory NPC summon was DS2). Some will give you different lines (the Hornsent apparently gets pissed if you don't use him for the Messmer fight, though i think nothing changes in his quest).

As a chronically afflicted sunbro, i can also tell you the number of people who summon other players to help them out on bosses is incredibly high. I'm sure many are likely using ashes too.

I don't know know what any of this is supposed to mean given Souls was always a game where you got to chose your own challenge. If the argument is that the game is totally casul because of those options, it's still true that you can make it hardcore just by chosing not to use those options, same as any Souls game in the past where you had the option not to summon a player for the boss.

I never got the sense FromSoft was interested specificially in making games that were impossible to beat by a majority of players. They always seemed willing to throw a bone for struggling players. Even in Sekiro, bosses that have multiple phases will sometimes be split in multiple encounters. By the time you meet the Monk, you already got an understanding how she works from encountering her as a ghost earlier, so that her three phases don't become a source of frustration, where you have to do the first a million times just to master her third.

Ultimately, i think their design principle is "hard, but not stressful". If you hit a brick wall with a boss and your progress is locked, you can use a sommon and move forward instead of rage quitting the game. Their rationale is that there's always next time (given all their games are designed for replayablity).

 

[Silverfish]

the bosses are totally impossible to beat legit and can only be beat with cheese

You can't still be bitter that you posted a video that like two people weren't impressed by.

Here comes the "it's bad faith because I can't respond to your argument posts" again.

 

[abija]

You can't argue with someone who fails at basic logic. I don't usually jump to conclusions and think people are actually mentally challenged so I tend to believe they are pretending. When you sadly confirmed the disability I appologised. I'm sorry nature or the school system failed you so hard.