From Software Elden Ring - From Software's new game with writing by GRRM

[Lyric Suite]

Artificial difficutly is when you suck so you blame the game for your own shortcomings, or start arguing people who are better than you can only win because of "buffs".

Like, guys, guys, the bosses are impossible, all the pros are just cheesing them with buffs, and who could be expected to learn to use buffs? Totally unfair!

Meanwhile the pros:



Do you see buffs? All i see is the guy just dancing around the boss as if it was nothing. Where's the threshold this DLC is supposed to have crossed?

 

[Lyric Suite]

Do we need to repeat this argument again retard boy? It's not 'normal' to stack buffs so high you completely skip boss phases. That is by definition abnormal. Are we going back to 'From intended you to skip entire phases, they worked on them so players wouldn't see them'?

The arguments about bosses needing phase skips or whatever items are all imaginary constructs produced by you without any proof.

Nevermind the hypocrisy of blaming devs for artificial difficulty while using self imposed restrictions.

He is just going off an uncharitable interpretation of a suggestion i made that sometimes FromSoft leaves certain openings for players to exploit in case they find themselves struggling too much with a particular boss.

I brought up Artorias as an example, since you can basically "skip" his powerup phases by knocking him out of his charging animation. You can also find that pendant that can block some of Manus attacks.

Many times it feels bosses in this game have written "counters" or intended weaknesses, many of which can often just be logically deduced (it's not shocking that the Scadutree Avatar is weak to fire. Aftrer all, he is a tree!).

Many times i also brought up parry as a counter. Parry isn't exactly easy to use mind you, but several times i've felt it was just the more viable option. I then noticed that whenever this was the case, the enemy just happened to have attacks that almost seemed to beg for a parry. Attacks with long wind ups, attacks like the double hilt slam the Godskin Noble does, or the double delayed swing by Commander Nial, which almost feel designed to make parry easier on them (if you weren't ready for the first attack, you have the next one you can parry).

So in lieu of this line of thinking, i also made the suggestion that it's possible some bosses are designed in a way where struggling players are invited to end the fight as fast as possible. It's certainly a good strategy to suggest to struggling players to do as much damage as they possibly can while the boss is still in his "easy" phase. That's basically why they give bosses easy phases to begin with, and notice how most buffs usually only last long enough to be useful for the first phase.

None of this of course prevents anyone from doing it the "hard" way, but the argument wasn't dealing with veterans or skilled players, we were talking about struggling players. I haven't gotten to Radahn yet, but it seems his "counter" appears to be shields. Why shouldn't a struggling player use this strategy, i don't know. None of this has anything to do with whether the boss is possible to beat or master without relying on this tactic. I'm sure there's an Ongbal video out there where he already dances around all his moves as if it was nothing.

If the argument is that "pros" don't count, what are we suggesting here exactly? That the difficutly is artificial because the normal player can't beat a boss without getting wrecked a few times? Was the normal player EVER expected to be able to do perfect no-hit runs before?

In the Dancing Lion fight i pointed out you get an eternity to heal every time he switches elemental phases. So what that those phases are "too difficult" for the "normal" player to get through without getting knocked on his ass a few times? When did the normal player NOT get knocked on his ass? That's why healing exists in the first place. When did this expectation that the average player should be able to master every attack a boss does from the get go? When has that EVER been the case in a FromSoft game?

 

[Lyric Suite]

You still can't get over the fact i'm beating all the bosses normally,

Do we need to repeat this argument again retard boy? It's not 'normal' to stack buffs so high you completely skip boss phases. That is by definition abnormal. Are we going back to 'From intended you to skip entire phases, they worked on them so players wouldn't see them'?

It's not the "buffs" that allowed me to end those fights early. You can try it yourself if you want to test this. Everybody uses the same "buffs" i used (and you are also conveniently forgetting i'm doing a run with zero Scadutree blessings). I didn't do anything special or beyond the understanding of the regular player. It's just a cope you invented because you don't want to admit what my videos demonstrate: that the bosses aren't unreasonably hard. Compared to the base game it's basically more of the same with maybe Radahn going beyond even Malenia, but then that's expected from a DLC.

But in reguards to your last point, how do you think summons fit it in with this? They worked so hard on those intricate boss moves, surely, they couldn't possibly leave an opening for players to just skip all that, right? Oh wait, that's what summons do. They allow you to bypass the boss entirely. All that work to design Malenia, and then they give you the option to summon that Let Me Solo Her guy so he can do it for you. How can that be?

 

[abija]

He is just going off an uncharitable interpretation of a suggestion i made that sometimes FromSoft leaves certain openings for players to exploit in case they find themselves struggling too much with a particular boss.

He did it multiple times and everytime he interprets "you can do it like this" to "you need to do it like this" to fit his initial narrative that the boss is bullshit and needs to be cheesed.

 

[Hell Swarm]

Oh hey, it's the exact same argument proven wrong again and again and Lyric not even engaging with anything presented to him. The day must end in a Y.

Arti doesn't have a phase 2, he has a buff move you can interrupt. He does it multiple times through the fight and it's an intended mechanic of shutting down his buffing by breaking his poise. That is fighting him as intended.

Beating a boss before they transition into a different move set and a different look is clearly not the intended gameplay. Games expect you to see and fight every phase of a boss. They're set threshholds of when the phases change you will always trigger with the right damage. When you stack multiple buffs and kill a boss before the phase changes it is not intended. That is cheesing the game to the point where you literally break it. There isn't a single argument you can make which can defend this point. From will let you break their games but that is clearly not the intended way to play.

This thread is now more retarded than /v/. Which is very impressive considering how bad 4chan is. Two complete idiots who can't argue using bad faith arguments to shit up the thread because they can't accept Elden Ring is a pile of shit with the occasional good bit.

 

[abija]

Beating a boss before they transition into a different move set and a different look is clearly not the intended gameplay.

1. It's not the only way the bosses have been beaten.
2. If designers use phases where the enemy is a lot more dangerous they know very well shortening those phases is one of the primary methods of beating it. If they don't implement some protection then it's one of the intended ways to do it, not an oversight. Sure there can be mistakes, but without a patch or devs explicitly mentioning it, you can't claim otherwise.

 

[Odoryuk]

Returning to the base game after countless hours in the DLC areas alone feels so fucked up, like it's a complete different game and world. Not sure if I could muster some free time for a total new playthrough, but the DLC recontextualised the base game for me. The snowy areas in the final of the base game seems so distant, I kinda wish to explore them a lot more now

 

[Tse Tse Fly]

Returning to the base game after countless hours in the DLC areas alone feels so fucked up, like it's a complete different game and world. Not sure if I could muster some free time for a total new playthrough, but the DLC recontextualised the base game for me. The snowy areas in the final of the base game seems so distant, I kinda wish to explore them a lot more now

In ER base game it was big open areas filled with shitty copypasta content, in DLC it's big open areas filled with no content. I'd say it's still an improvement, at least you can skip to main content faster.

 

[Vic]

So you need to eat slightly less bad shit to realize you've been eating shit all along?

 

[NJClaw]

Beating a boss before they transition into a different move set and a different look is clearly not the intended gameplay.

"The intended gameplay" in the context of Elden Ring is a very funny concept. The game gives you 200 different tools that trivialize fights on their own and then allows you to combine them. Once you know the mechanics, you basically have to constantly limit yourself not to break everything.

 

[Odoryuk]

In ER base game it was big open areas filled with shitty copypasta content, in DLC it's big open areas filled with no content.

The DLC is more compact and is full of content, but I understand why they went with a very large world in the base game, and I wouldn't call that content a shitty copypasta content.

So you need to eat slightly less bad shit to realize you've been eating shit all along?

Base Elden Ring is very good, but the DLC is even better.

"The intended gameplay" in the context of Elden Ring is a very funny concept. The game gives you 200 different tools that trivialize fights on their own and then allows you to combine them. Once you know the mechanics, you basically have to constantly limit yourself not to break everything.

If the developers didn't want players to skip boss phases, they'd added these phases with separate health bars, which was already done before. If it's a single health bar and the behaviour of the boss just changes, then everything goes.

 

[Lagole Gon]

I bought the game yesterday.

Great adventure ahead!

Wha... how... Fuck you. It's called volcel.

We call them lesbians where I come from.

 

[Vic]

Finger Maidens

 

[Silverfish]

Two complete idiots who can't argue

In abija's defense, English isn't his first language. Some things get lost in translation.

So you need to eat slightly less bad shit to realize you've been eating shit all along?

'A new perspective on shit' would have been a great tagline for the dlc marketing.

 

[Lyric Suite]

Beating a boss before they transition into a different move set and a different look is clearly not the intended gameplay.

It is if the boss doesn't resets his health bar after each phase. It's a perfectly valid strategy to stomp the boss as hard as you can and exploit the posture damage system to delay the trigger to the next phase as much as possible. If they didn't want the player to do this, the solution is right there: just have the boss reset his health bar after each phase.

As for the "buffs" argument, this would only be valid if i was literally one shotting bosses as soon as i step into the arena. But that's not how it works. I still have to learn the boss and master their moves, and the fact it is possible to master them shows the idea they crossed a threshold with them is nonsensical.

And for the record, i was easily able to beat the Dancing Lion across all his phases (multiple times in fact), i just couldn't do it without getting hit a couple of times, not with the time i alloted myself for this DLC (no more than an afternoon for each boss is the rule i set for myself, since i was afraid to drag this lest i got burned out again and quit without finishing it, like i did with my SL1 run). Since i'm aiming for a clean no-hit streak with all the bosses, i cut some corners by going all out in damage not to make it too burdersome on myself. Only exception of course is i'm not using any Scadutree blessings.

Now, when people say the bosses are impossible to beat "legit", they aren't saying they are inpossible to no-hit them, since most people aren't trying to do that. What they mean is that the bosses are literally impossible to beat no matter what, unless one relies on summons and so forth. I didn't have to "burst" the Dancing Lion to actually beat him. I just did it because i wanted a no-hit video and basicaslly did it the easy way to get it done and move on. If i had a few days i'd definitely no-hit him through all his elemental phases. There's nothing impossible about him (maybe just the lighting static being somewhat RNG, but it's not like the damage is huge if you get hit by that).

 

[Hell Swarm]

Beating a boss before they transition into a different move set and a different look is clearly not the intended gameplay.

"The intended gameplay" in the context of Elden Ring is a very funny concept. The game gives you 200 different tools that trivialize fights on their own and then allows you to combine them. Once you know the mechanics, you basically have to constantly limit yourself not to break everything.

From gives you lots of tools then expects you to be smart enough not to completely destroy your game with them. You're right, you do need to nerf yourself to not break everything which is part of From's game philosophy. Freedom VS quality is always a debate worth having. I like From's freedom but they are terrible at making a balanced game.

 

[kites]

In ER base game it was big open areas filled with shitty copypasta content, in DLC it's big open areas filled with no content. I'd say it's still an improvement, at least you can skip to main content faster.

I’m not sure it’s much of an improvement; I spent way too much time picking apart most of the DLC areas thinking “I have to be missing something here”. The vertical scope is nice, but the fact it’s laid out and designed so convolutedly only compounds that issue for me. Sure, you could make the argument it’s not necessary to scour the map, but it’s a From game.. there’s no way to know you aren’t missing out on something important or valuable without doing so.

Overall I still have a lukewarm feeling on the whole package. There’s some great stuff in it, but it often comes off like a modder reconstituting the base content rather than a professional team building on the game’s core.

 

[Max Damage]

From gives you lots of tools then expects you to be smart enough not to completely destroy your game with them.

This is backwards reasoning, if you weren't meant to use some things (together), they wouldn't be allowed in game. I still don't get why people are trying to force the idea that From makes airtight suffering simulators for masochists, you can "break" the game just by playing their games and using the tools you're given, even if it's something as simple as stumbling upon heavy armor and big weapon back in first Dark Souls. Anyone's welcome to do self-imposed runs and not use what they have, but that's not the actual game's difficulty by default.

 

[Hell Swarm]

From gives you lots of tools then expects you to be smart enough not to completely destroy your game with them.

This is backwards reasoning, if you weren't meant to use some things (together), they wouldn't be allowed in game. I still don't get why people are trying to force the idea that From makes airtight suffering simulators for masochists, you can "break" the game just by playing their games and using the tools you're given, even if it's something as simple as stumbling upon heavy armor and big weapon back in first Dark Souls. Anyone's welcome to do self-imposed runs and not use what they have, but that's not the actual game's difficulty by default.

I agree that From let you set your own difficulty and masochist mode is not the default. The discussion here is if "ultra easy mode" is what From intended players to be using. If you stack buffs you can 1 shot every boss in the game, even ones with cut scene triggers if you get the right RNG on some AOE spells. I think we can all agree 1 shotting DLC Radahn was never the intended way to fight him and yet it can be done by players min/maxing. I think it can be done by a SL1 character even.

My argument has always been that From intend you to fight bosses with maybe 1 buff active because most builds simply don't include them (we have poll data to pull from). You're supposed to fight a boss for 30 minutes to a couple of hours depending on the boss in question. Then you learn the roll timings, hit it enough times and you've gut good and won. It's very very unlikely From expected you to walk in with 10 buffs 1 HP and drop a nuke on a boss even if the allow you to do it. So you have people like Lyric playing on ultra easy mode and saying that's intended and how most people play. While I point out that's an extreme build that demolishes everything with ease and is not how 99.9% of players play. Which I think we can see from the DLC discussions and online discussions in general. People aren't struggling against bosses for hours because they're playing on ultra easy mode and only need to dodge 10 attacks with 12 healing flasks if they fuck up.

 

[Max Damage]

Haven't played the DLC (don't know if I'll finish base game in first place), but out of all Dark Souls DLCs only in 3rd game it took me a while to beat Friede and Gael/Midir. It's only in Sekiro that you can't buff to same magnitude, just saying that From doesn't really care much about how fast you beat anything most of time. Even discarding the buffs together, you can use phantoms, and the theoretical 30 minutes to couple hours actually become win on first try. And things like Pursuer fight can be solved by something From placed inside the arena in under 15 seconds, the actual "git gud" games don't have any of this stuff.

 

[Lyric Suite]

My argument has always been that From intend you to fight bosses with maybe 1 buff active because most builds simply don't include them

That's just something you pulled out of your ass.

So you have people like Lyric playing on ultra easy mode

Absolute zero conception of how this game actually works. You are clearly completely out of your depth here and yet you continue to speak from a position of authority.

 

[abija]

You're supposed to fight a boss for 30 minutes to a couple of hours depending on the boss in question. Then you learn the roll timings, hit it enough times and you've gut good and won.

Is that from "game design for dummies" or from "poll data"?

From intends people to have fun with whatever they like from the large amount of tools they provide. You're trying to argue there's only one way to have fun and From failed at balancing for it. That if people killed the bosses in reasonable time they must have been playing on ultra easy mode. And the only fact you base that on is that you didn't.

 

[Odoryuk]

My argument has always been that From intend you to fight bosses with maybe 1 buff active because most builds simply don't include them

There's multiple type of buffs, you can't stack two buffs of the same type, that was not intended by the developers. If you can stack multiple different types of buffs together without using glitches, then it was totally intended by the developers

 

[Hell Swarm]

If there ever was a bad faith argument ultra easy mode being reasonable is it.

My argument has always been that From intend you to fight bosses with maybe 1 buff active because most builds simply don't include them

There's multiple type of buffs, you can't stack two buffs of the same type, that was not intended by the developers. If you can stack multiple different types of buffs together without using glitches, then it was totally intended by the developers

From don't intend you to find all the buffs and all the meta weapons though. We've discussed this before with Golden Vow. It's in an out of the way place fighting an enemy you have no real reason to fight. They expect you to find some of them but not all of them.

Is the concept that "You can do anything, even ruin your game but we hope you're not dumb enough to do it" not one you've seen before? It used to be the philosophy of the entire souls series. If you wanted to kill your entire NPC line up you could. Go into the Nexus and kill everyone but the maiden and you're going to struggle but you can do it. Want to kill Andre in DaS1? Go ahead. Going to get screwed until Anor Londo (I think you can kill the giant but I want to say they disabled combat there?) or you have to go to the skeleton blacksmith with no bonfire. Souls entire identity was freedom to fuck yourself over and it's partly gone in Elden ring because baby mode is on any time an important NPC is present.

 

[Odoryuk]

Is the concept that "You can do anything, even ruin your game but we hope you're not dumb enough to do it" not one you've seen before? It used to be the philosophy of the entire souls series. If you wanted to kill your entire NPC line up you could. Go into the Nexus and kill everyone but the maiden and you're going to struggle but you can do it. Want to kill Andre in DaS1? Go ahead. Going to get screwed until Anor Londo (I think you can kill the giant but I want to say they disabled combat there?) or you have to go to the skeleton blacksmith with no bonfire. Souls entire identity was freedom to fuck yourself over and it's partly gone in Elden ring because baby mode is on any time an important NPC is present.

Being able to finally kill a difficult boss with a help of a buff is not ruining your game