From Software Elden Ring - From Software's new game with writing by GRRM

[Hell Swarm]

Can't be bothered to quote the autistic losers talking stupid as usual so excuse the lack of context.

Red Herring is another attempt at saying bad faith. Wah wah try again.

Yes stacking 2 buffs is exceptionally rare unless you think a heal buff and an attack buff is what we're talking about. As stated before they have low timers so you need to know their exact length to get the order right so your first don't run out before you later ones do. Are you claiming you got a stop watch out to get the right order now too? lol

How hard it is to find something is very relevant to how often it will be used. It also matters how early it is as most people don't switch up builds and a lot of junk becomes ignorable later on. If you find something in the first 5 hours of the game you're excited. Finding the golden vow inventory item you go "Great, more junk" and move on the same as everyone else does at that point in Elden ring because the game is full of so much useless shit if it's not gear or a talisman it's basically auto forgotten along with the 30 mushrooms you got on the way to finding it. Common sense would tell you item fatigue is a thing.

"Just test them all and see" says the autist who doesn't even do that himself. Day 1 Elden ring was data mined and the info was uploaded to discords and subreddits. Very few people are manually testing except to confirm what the data miners say and once they have it's community knowledge on the wikis or reddit or discords. Literally every single equip slot now can influence your damage. Only the saddest of the sad are going to test more than a talisman switch.

"People can no hit the bosses so they're not impossible or overly hard". They can, they also use cheat engine to train and only upload the winning attempt. Lobos spent 20 hours grinding Romina for a SL1 no fragments NG+7 run using a locked save file so he could reload for red tear stone. As fun as that looked, it proved nothing but some people are willing to waste their lives grinding the impossible looking for the miracle run. And so we're very clear, if you're not cheesing the bosses all of these challenges are looking for the miracle run and they optimised to hell and back. These aren't how you judge the average experience and what is an acceptable level of difficulty. But then the guy having to stack buffs and use the goldfish load out, he's totally the average player and his opinion is hecking valid!

 

[NJClaw]

Messmer defeated after 13 tries. After all the people complaining about him, I was expecting some total bullshit, but it was actually a very cool fight that ends quickly and doesn't waste your time. Being hyper aggressive and staying close to him was key.

Messmer is what I consider an almost perfect fight. To fight him optimally, you have to rely on every defensive option the game offers you. Parries, dodges, jumps, shield blocks and guard counters all come together to create an incredibly satisfying flow. Of course you can cheese him behind a greatshield, but you would lose out on a great fight.

All this talk about buff stacking seems to be missing a major point: Why the fuck would you know this works without a fucking guide? I went for a faith build myself on my original playthrough, and came to the conclusion that I could stack regen buffs with a defense buff and an offense buff, but the latter two weren't worth using since they lasted like 30 fucking seconds by the time you're through the fog wall and actually engage the boss, so despite being the build that had access to the most buffs, I barely used them.

What fucking player is collecting 20 buff spells and then systematically combining them and testing their damage dealt and taken to figure out the optimal setup? If you know to combine golden vow with greyoll roar and whatever the fuck else stacks it's because you watched a guide and may as well have downloaded cheat engine while you're at it.

You're overestimating how much time and effort it takes to learn what stacks with what. Every time you find a new tool, you use it on top of what you already have and check if your stats changed. If they stay the same, you drop it and forget about it. If they do change, you check whether any of your other buffs got superseded. You'll never have more than 3-4 active usable buffs, so it takes around 16 R1s at worst to learn what buff you can unequip. It takes less than a minute to decide if your new-found buff stacks with what you already have. Of course now I check the wiki if I need to, but I went through my first few playthroughs completely blind and already knew how buffs worked.

But you're right on the duration, I feel like that's what invalidates most buffs for a first-time player. If you don't know the boss (and the game), you risk losing most buffs before having had the chance to smack him even once. Of course there are exceptions (I'd say anything that lasts 60+ seconds, like Golden Vow and almost all weapon buffs), but their generally short duration makes the hard to use if you don't know what you're doing. But once you know the game, 60 seconds are more than enough to gain great benefits from them.

Only the saddest of the sad are going to test more than a talisman switch.

I feel personally attacked. But can't really disagree with you, I am kinda sad. But there aren't that many items to test outside of ashes of war, spells and consumables. There are almost none of them.

 

[abija]

Can't be bothered to quote the autistic losers talking stupid as usual so excuse the lack of context.

You ignored my post because it directly contradicts everything you said.
And when you make retarded wild claims like "impossible unless" ANY counter example invalidates them. Then you complain people aren't using arguments against you...

But you're right on the duration, I feel like that's what invalidates most buffs for a first-time player. If you don't know the boss (and the game), you risk losing most buffs before having had the chance to smack him even once. Of course there are exceptions (I'd say anything that lasts 60+ seconds, like Golden Vow and almost all weapon buffs), but their generally short duration makes the hard to use if you don't know what you're doing. But once you know the game, 60 seconds are more than enough to gain great benefits from them.

I think defensive buffs are great for bosses you're learning even if not refreshed just for a bit of extra breathing room at start.

 

[Damned Registrations]

Every time you find a new tool, you use it on top of what you already have and check if your stats changed. If they stay the same, you drop it and forget about it. If they do change, you check whether any of your other buffs got superseded.

See, this is how I know you idiots didn't test fuck all. If I have ABC equipped and try D and nothing happens, I can't just drop it and conclude it's garbage. I need to drop ABC by resting or dying or whatever, try ABD, then BCD, then ACD, then AD, BD, and CD before I know what the fuck D actually conflicts with. That is 19 casts to test compatibility with just 3 spells. Now try doing it with say, 6. So no, when I got shabiri's howl, I didn't try casting it dozens of times to figure out if it stacks with golden vow and royal whatever the fuck and 4 wrinkly asscheek talismans. Shockingly, I cast it once, went 'No fucking way am I pulling that off in a boss fight without eating shit' and never equipped it again.

Here's the entire list of buffs I gave any fucks about at all:

The low level regen spells.
That golden order spell that quadruples damage vs undead and keeps them down.
Black flame protection/The big holy one.

That's pretty much it.

 

[abija]

Or you just take sshots before and after using buffs?

 

[Multidirectional]

Fuck I cannot remember using any buffs outside of that mixable flask. I was definitely playing the game all wrong on my first run.

 

[abija]

If you hit a wall and didn't think of something like buffs then you did. If you progressed fine ... who cares about buffs?

 

[NJClaw]

See, this is how I know you idiots didn't test fuck all. If I have ABC equipped and try D and nothing happens, I can't just drop it and conclude it's garbage. I need to drop ABC by resting or dying or whatever, try ABD, then BCD, then ACD, then AD, BD, and CD before I know what the fuck D actually conflicts with. That is 19 casts to test compatibility with just 3 spells. Now try doing it with say, 6. So no, when I got shabiri's howl, I didn't try casting it dozens of times to figure out if it stacks with golden vow and royal whatever the fuck and 4 wrinkly asscheek talismans. Shockingly, I cast it once, went 'No fucking way am I pulling that off in a boss fight without eating shit' and never equipped it again.

You clearly have no idea of how easy this process is in practice. You say "19 casts to test compatibility with just 3 spells", but 3 spells basically is the upper limit of active effects you will have on you at any given time. I almost never have more than 2 and usually run around with just one. I mean, SIX spells? Lol, what?

If you usually use ABC, you try ABCD and see if your numbers went up. If they didn't, you can forget about D. Then you try ABD, BCD, and ACD and see which one has the same numbers as ABCD. That's it. A new buff D can only trump one of A, B, or C, never two of them. And, again, keep in mind that ABC as a starting point is already your max capacity of active effects.

If you cast D and your numbers don't go up, it means D does nothing for you. There's no point in testing anything else.

Shockingly, I cast it once, went 'No fucking way am I pulling that off in a boss fight without eating shit' and never equipped it again.

I mean, good for you I guess?

 

[Multidirectional]

If you hit a wall and didn't think of something like buffs then you did. If you progressed fine ... who cares about buffs?

I progressed by dying to some bosses 50+ times and growing to hate the game lol. Mohg was the final straw, wasn't even that satisfied after finally beating him. Was just happy to get it over with. Past him I started using summons for most bosses, just wanted the game to end faster.

 

[Nathir]

But Mohg is a very good and fair fight.

 

[Ghost Goat]

But Mohg is a very good and fair fight.

I kited him around the arena and blasted Storm Blade in his face. No summons or buffs. Is this cheese? Maybe. I'm sure there is a better way to do it, but this worked for me.

 

[Multidirectional]

But Mohg is a very good and fair fight.

Sure but I'm a bad player. I was only good enough for Dark Souls 1 and 2. I suck since 3 and I'm more into noob shit like Nioh 2 now.

 

[Hell Swarm]

But you're right on the duration, I feel like that's what invalidates most buffs for a first-time player. If you don't know the boss (and the game), you risk losing most buffs before having had the chance to smack him even once. Of course there are exceptions (I'd say anything that lasts 60+ seconds, like Golden Vow and almost all weapon buffs), but their generally short duration makes the hard to use if you don't know what you're doing. But once you know the game, 60 seconds are more than enough to gain great benefits from them.

The issue isn't just duration though it's making the game tedious. Having to switch to your casting weapon, switch spells, switch back to your normal weapon and/or 2 handing. It's a bunch of busy work that makes reentering a boss fight annoying. Using lobos as an example again, he knew he'd be at some bosses a while and he decided not to use buffs because doing them would make it more annoying to fight the boss. I guess you could call it "buff fatigue", but juggling anything more than say golden vow or a weapon resin/enchant gets tedious if you're entering the fight multiple times.

You ignored my post because it directly contradicts everything you said.

I ignored your post because you had nothing to respond to and you're retarded. You can't make an argument and any time you're soundly beaten you cry bad faith. Frankly you're lucky I even replied to you at all here. I don't usually talk to liberals.

If you cast D and your numbers don't go up, it means D does nothing for you. There's no point in testing anything else.

I wish it was that simple but From don't tell you exact numbers. So lets say A and D don't stack, but D is better than A, except when you have C equipped because some buffs buff each others and others don't. Do you're having to juggle talismans and such. And then you run into bosses resistant to your +10 fire damage so your +10 physical is better. But then is it still better with buffs ABCD or are we back to testing 16 times before a boss resisting you? It's a lot of tedium in a game most people enjoy because it doesn't force tedium on you. You just equip your shit and go into the action after the opening cut scene or a boss cut scene.

But Mohg is a very good and fair fight.

Big Mogh is objectively the most unfair fight in any souls like I've ever heard of. He's the only boss I've ever encountered where you cannot avoid damage except to burst him down. You can't dodge his phase transition and even if you use the flask it still chips you. I like him and find him fun but objectively there is no way to avoid damage except as a DPS check and there's nothing like that I've run into any where else. Even 4kings which is a DPS check is in theory possible to avoid damage. It's also unfair that From uses the same fire animation for harmless environmental effects in the area and his blood fire attacks. There are times you have safe space that looks like a hazard.

 

[cvv]

But Mohg is a very good and fair fight.

Sure but I'm a bad player. I was only good enough for Dark Souls 1 and 2. I suck since 3 and I'm more into noob shit like Nioh 2 now.

Nioh 2 non-boss content is 10x more challenging than Elden Ring.

In fact ER's overworld is probably the easiest of all the soulslikes I've ever played and I've played almost all of them.

 

[Multidirectional]

Nioh 2 non-boss content is 10x more challenging than Elden Ring.

In fact ER's overworld is probably the easiest of all the soulslikes I've ever played and I've played almost all of them.

Yeah regular enemies are for sure tougher in Nioh 2. The boss fights, however, never made me rage anywhere as much as some ER or DS III bosses did. Even the single boss fight in entire game I dislike, the gimmick Osakabe fight, didn't piss me off to that extent.

 

[cvv]

Nioh 2 non-boss content is 10x more challenging than Elden Ring.

In fact ER's overworld is probably the easiest of all the soulslikes I've ever played and I've played almost all of them.

Yeah regular enemies are for sure tougher in Nioh 2. The boss fights, however, never made me rage anywhere as much as some ER or DS III bosses did. Even the single boss fight in entire game I dislike, the gimmick Osakabe fight, didn't piss me off to that extent.

True. It's not that Nioh 2 bosses are that much easier, they somehow do seem fairer tho.

 

[NJClaw]

The issue isn't just duration though it's making the game tedious. Having to switch to your casting weapon, switch spells, switch back to your normal weapon and/or 2 handing. It's a bunch of busy work that makes reentering a boss fight annoying. Using lobos as an example again, he knew he'd be at some bosses a while and he decided not to use buffs because doing them would make it more annoying to fight the boss. I guess you could call it "buff fatigue", but juggling anything more than say golden vow or a weapon resin/enchant gets tedious if you're entering the fight multiple times.

How many times do you have to try a boss fight to actually get tired of casting 2-3 spells? Maybe I'm immune due to having played Pathfinder: Kingmaker without the buff bot, but this seems absurd to me. I get that Lobos might experience that, but what kind of useless example is that? Do you think anyone here goes for challenges that require hundreds of tries?

I wish it was that simple but From don't tell you exact numbers. So lets say A and D don't stack, but D is better than A, except when you have C equipped because some buffs buff each others and others don't. Do you're having to juggle talismans and such. And then you run into bosses resistant to your +10 fire damage so your +10 physical is better. But then is it still better with buffs ABCD or are we back to testing 16 times before a boss resisting you? It's a lot of tedium in a game most people enjoy because it doesn't force tedium on you. You just equip your shit and go into the action after the opening cut scene or a boss cut scene.

Now I feel like you're just talking about things that just don't exist. I went through a playthrough relying heavily on buffs and never once anything like this occurred. You're making buffing up in this game sound like a complex wave function when, in my experience, it's more like a simple addition.

Of course how much you want to invest into learning the game and optimizing your gameplay is up to you. I don't expect the average player who goes through the game once or twice to pour as much as me into it, but this doesn't makes easy things suddenly incredibly hard.

 

[abija]

I ignored your post because you had nothing to respond to and you're retarded. You can't make an argument and any time you're soundly beaten you cry bad faith. Frankly you're lucky I even replied to you at all here. I don't usually talk to liberals.

Destiny is that you? How many times now you accused me (or others) of exactly the crap you pull just to avoid admiting you are wrong?

 

[Multidirectional]

True. It's not that Nioh 2 bosses are that much easier, they somehow do seem fairer tho.

They're certainly far more readable to me. And they were that on first run as well. Which was right after my first ER run. I didn't need summons for any N2 bosses.

 

[Ghost Goat]

But you're right on the duration, I feel like that's what invalidates most buffs for a first-time player. If you don't know the boss (and the game), you risk losing most buffs before having had the chance to smack him even once. Of course there are exceptions (I'd say anything that lasts 60+ seconds, like Golden Vow and almost all weapon buffs), but their generally short duration makes the hard to use if you don't know what you're doing. But once you know the game, 60 seconds are more than enough to gain great benefits from them.

The issue isn't just duration though it's making the game tedious. Having to switch to your casting weapon, switch spells, switch back to your normal weapon and/or 2 handing. It's a bunch of busy work that makes reentering a boss fight annoying. Using lobos as an example again, he knew he'd be at some bosses a while and he decided not to use buffs because doing them would make it more annoying to fight the boss. I guess you could call it "buff fatigue", but juggling anything more than say golden vow or a weapon resin/enchant gets tedious if you're entering the fight multiple times.

You ignored my post because it directly contradicts everything you said.

I ignored your post because you had nothing to respond to and you're retarded. You can't make an argument and any time you're soundly beaten you cry bad faith. Frankly you're lucky I even replied to you at all here. I don't usually talk to liberals.

If you cast D and your numbers don't go up, it means D does nothing for you. There's no point in testing anything else.

I wish it was that simple but From don't tell you exact numbers. So lets say A and D don't stack, but D is better than A, except when you have C equipped because some buffs buff each others and others don't. Do you're having to juggle talismans and such. And then you run into bosses resistant to your +10 fire damage so your +10 physical is better. But then is it still better with buffs ABCD or are we back to testing 16 times before a boss resisting you? It's a lot of tedium in a game most people enjoy because it doesn't force tedium on you. You just equip your shit and go into the action after the opening cut scene or a boss cut scene.

But Mohg is a very good and fair fight.

Big Mogh is objectively the most unfair fight in any souls like I've ever heard of. He's the only boss I've ever encountered where you cannot avoid damage except to burst him down. You can't dodge his phase transition and even if you use the flask it still chips you. I like him and find him fun but objectively there is no way to avoid damage except as a DPS check and there's nothing like that I've run into any where else. Even 4kings which is a DPS check is in theory possible to avoid damage. It's also unfair that From uses the same fire animation for harmless environmental effects in the area and his blood fire attacks. There are times you have safe space that looks like a hazard.

DPS bursting was the only way I made it through some of the DLC bosses, in fact. There were a couple exceptions (Midra, Lion and Rellanna were fun once I groked their moves) but the majority of them felt like a DPS race. Maybe I was too lazy to learn the bosses. IDK. By some miracle I managed to swat Romina on the first try by rushing in and spamming Lion's Claw on the Giant Crusher.

 

[Hell Swarm]

this doesn't makes easy things suddenly incredibly hard.

How many times do you have to try a boss fight to actually get tired of casting 2-3 spells?

I hate to use the 'normalfag' meme but that's exactly what we're discussing here. Remember how everyone made fun of Elon Musk's Elden ring build? That's the type of player we're discussing here and that makes up 99% of the people playing these games. They're not autists like us discussing it on forums.

I get sick applying a resin let alone multiple buffs by the end of my SL1 run I gave up on buffs because it was tedious to enter the boss rooms and it was better being a glass cannon than dealing with it any further.. Especially since From games often fuck up the buffering and it can fuck you over in a fight. My coop partner never uses 2 weapons, always just been a straight 2 hand str user. Multiple times throughout the play through they ended up 2 handing their off hand staff because From's buffering sucks. I've had the same issue countless times where I end up 2 handing my shield due to input buffering. In theory it's easy and not a problem but remember you're starting to juggle a lot more than just pushing L1 multiple times, you're on a timer to get through the door and if you hit something too fast or it buffers for whatever ungodly reason it does some times it just fucks you.

 

[abija]

I played like a normal fag and you somehow ignore it because it doesn't fit your arguments.

 

[cvv]

Personally I don't think applying 1-3 buffs is anything abnormal. And it's also not the automatic WIN button.

I usually try a boss for a couple of times without buffs, just to see what I'm dealing with, and then start buffing. In my crusader run in SotE I usually applied Golden Vow and then used the Sacred Blade ash to buff my Black Steel Greathammer.

But yeah, sometimes I have so many runs at the boss I get tired of buffing. Like in the Messmer fight I realized after like two hours I can just grab a big old greatshield and block 95% of his shit, without bothering with stupid buffs. I still wonder how people reliably fight that asshole without a shield.

 

[cruel]

This whole buff discussion makes it look like you need a PhD in buffing, but in reality you don't. My thought process was this:
- fighting Messmer, he hits me hard
- after 5 tries, he still hits me hard
- hmm, the game sold him as a Flame guy and he is using a lot of Flame stuff
- was there a whole school of incantations related to Flame?
- (checks inventory of incantations for flame stuff and looks for the words 'increase fire resistance'
- finds 'Flame, Protect Me'
- uses 'Flame, Protect Me' -> quick status check before and after -> fire resistance goes from 63% to 85% --> makes me happy

I don't give a shit about other buffs at this point. Flame Protect Me is the only thing you need to make Messmer WAY more manageable, and I don't think it required any crazy research. The other thing that helped is realizing that the attack he is doing at the start of phase 2 takes few seconds, which is enough to re-cast it.

This is actually one of the best things in From games for me - the game forces you to rethink your strategy and THINK at certain points. I needed to drop my dual Colossal Sword setup for this fight and adapt (regular Greatsword instead), and there is nothing wrong with that. Less equipment weight allowed me to drop Arsenal talisman and combine FP regen + fire resist talisman, so another win.

 

[Strange Fellow]

Big Mogh is objectively the most unfair fight in any souls like I've ever heard of. He's the only boss I've ever encountered where you cannot avoid damage except to burst him down. You can't dodge his phase transition and even if you use the flask it still chips you. I like him and find him fun but objectively there is no way to avoid damage except as a DPS check and there's nothing like that I've run into any where else. Even 4kings which is a DPS check is in theory possible to avoid damage. It's also unfair that From uses the same fire animation for harmless environmental effects in the area and his blood fire attacks. There are times you have safe space that looks like a hazard.

Doesn't using the physick nullify the damage, even though he still heals? Anyway, it doesn't matter. People bitched about unavoidable damage in the Nito fight as well and it just doesn't matter. It's a thing you heal through and go about your business. It's impossible for me to imagine actually getting upset about it and relating it to some point about game design or whatever, because it's so inoffensive. It's cool and atmospheric so it has a reason to exist, and that's that.