From Software Elden Ring - From Software's new game with writing by GRRM

[Lyric Suite]

It's hilarious how you try to sidetrack again the argument.
It's even more hilarious how hard you fail at logic. Apparently "Lyric doesn't like action games just From games" implies "Lyric isn't included in ER target audience".

He is implying the reason i only like FromSoft games is that i can "break them", meaning i wouldn't be able to play other action games because i would suck too much at them and couldn't "cheat" my way out by using things like "buffs".

Of course, there is a FromSoft game that cannot be "broken", which is Sekiro. Wonder how he is going to get out of the contradiciton on that one. I guess all he could say is that Sekiro is super easy and requires no skill?

 

[processdaemon]

I liked the DLC as a whole and thought most of the bosses were fun, especially Bayle, it was only the final boss rubbed me up the wrong way because I struggled for around 3-4 hours with my normal build (Dragon Incantations) and then just killed him immediately by equipping a shield. I'm less butthurt about it than I was at release because I reloaded my backup save and tried some non-shield builds that worked later, but it annoyed me at the time that one build could make such a joke out of the boss while it seemed so hard with others.

I know that Fromsoft games aren't exactly perfectly balanced, especially at release, and it's possible that shields trivialise all the bosses that much and I was just blissfully unaware because I'd never really used them before, but I'd never really felt like I had to change tack as drastically as that and it felt unsatisfying to do it at the last minute. And yes, that is partially on me for not persevering with my chosen build, I just didn't expect it to go from painfully challenging to piss easy like that, if I'd had to struggle a little bit with the shield it probably would have left less of a bad taste in my mouth to be honest.

 

[Strange Fellow]

This has always been the case, if you're playing without a shield you're playing on optional hard mode.

 

[Ravielsk]

Anybody who plays RPGs knows about prebuffing. The argument against it can only come from a normie retard like Hell Swarm who plays FPS with his feet on a controller.

Elden ring is not a RPG like Neverwinter, Baldurs Gate or WoW. Those games can expect the player to actively use buffs because those buffs are directly baked into class skill trees. You do not need to sleuth around the game world to find the blessing of fortitude for your priest, you just level him up and pick it as his next unlocked skill. Done, finito, nothing more to it.

In Elden ring the buffs are often far apart so unless you know ahead of time where to get them the chance of even having them is rather low. They also are not completely free in terms of casting requirements so even if you find them its not a given you will be able to use them individually(let alone stack them) and finally the the duration of most buffs is so comically short that stacking them without prior knowledge of the fight is at best a gamble at worst a pointless waste of FP. Oh, yes and the interface is so cumbersome that unless you buff in a specific order your first buff may expire before you apply the last.

The game could not be less built for buff stacking if it tried. I could imagine it as a valid strategy for NG+ playthroughs but for a first time playthrough the only way to use them efficiently is to follow a guide or a wiki. If you want to see how the game would look if it was built around buff stacking I wholeheartedly recommend the Convergence mod. It adds a whole host of classes, each comes with its own buffs, most of which have no stacking limitations and last at least a minute(usually 3 minutes or forever). There are even individual buffs on all armor pieces so in one way or another you will be stacking buffs.

A lot more was added and changed. Much of which I cannot even get into because I have yet to see most of it but its an entirely different kind of experience and when it comes to buffs it perfectly demonstrates how much more different the game would have to be for buff stacking to be some kind of intended playstyle instead of the accidental option it is now.

 

[NJClaw]

it's possible that shields trivialise all the bosses that much

Yes

 

[cvv]

This has always been the case, if you're playing without a shield you're playing on optional hard mode.

This has absolutely NOT been the case since the DS2 DLCs. After seeing how effective turtling is in DS1 and DS2 vanilla FS made a specific effort to neutralize shields and everyone who played the game in sequence knows the moment of sudden clarity when the first DS2 DLC boss (usually Alva) rips you a new one through your favourite impenetrable shield.

They stuck with their anti-shield guns in BB, DS3 and Sekiro so successfully I never even thought of using a shield in ER vanilla. And neither did anyone else, seemingly. I don't even know if shields were good in the vanilla. It wasn't until SotE the shield meta came back after a 10 year hiatus.

 

[Strange Fellow]

This has always been the case, if you're playing without a shield you're playing on optional hard mode.

This has absolutely NOT been the case since the DS2 DLCs. After seeing how effective turtling is in DS1 and DS2 vanilla FS made a specific effort to neutralize shields and everyone who played the game in sequence knows the moment of sudden clarity when the first DS2 DLC boss (usually Alva) rips you a new one through your favourite impenetrable shield.

They stuck with their anti-shield guns in BB, DS3 and Sekiro so successfully I never even thought of using a shield in ER vanilla. And neither did anyone else, seemingly. I don't even know if shields were good in the vanilla. It wasn't until SotE the shield meta came back after a 10 year hiatus.

Neutralize in the sense that you could no longer just stand there and laugh in the boss's face while it exhausted itself wailing on your chunk of metal, but shields have always been useful. It's impossible to mistime a block like you can a dodge, that alone is a reason to keep one on hand, even if you do have to be judicious about which attacks to block and which to evade. There's not much of a downside either. Swapping equipment with the d-pad and two-handing the weapon takes no time at all.

 

[abija]

He is implying the reason i only like FromSoft games is that i can "break them", meaning i wouldn't be able to play other action games because i would suck too much at them and couldn't "cheat" my way out by using things like "buffs".

There's still NOTHING that implies that you are not in ER/From software target audience. They are playing extremely fast and loose with basic logic, that's the issue.

I liked the DLC as a whole and thought most of the bosses were fun, especially Bayle, it was only the final boss rubbed me up the wrong way because I struggled for around 3-4 hours with my normal build (Dragon Incantations) and then just killed him immediately by equipping a shield. I'm less butthurt about it than I was at release because I reloaded my backup save and tried some non-shield builds that worked later, but it annoyed me at the time that one build could make such a joke out of the boss while it seemed so hard with others.

At least in my experience your build also trivialized some encounters :p

 

[NJClaw]

They stuck with their anti-shield guns in [...] DS3

Shields are extremely strong in DS3. With a high-tier greatshield and a high investment in Endurance, you can block even the longest combos from Midir and the Soul of Cinder.

I never even thought of using a shield in ER vanilla. And neither did anyone else, seemingly.

I've been spamming "equip a shield" in this thread since the game got released.

Greatshields in ER have always been completely broken. You can basically hold L1 without any regard for your stamina 99% of the time. Not only that, guard counters are also the strongest possible attack in the game for most weapon types.

 

[processdaemon]

At least in my experience your build also trivialized some encounters :p

Yeah I can't argue against that, it's true even with some of the other DLC bosses, anything that moves slow or has long enough openings melts under breath attacks. I wasn't intending to shit on shield users or anything, I certainly don't mind when the occasional boss goes down easy, I think it was just frustrating to go from really having trouble to winning easily because you don't get the same catharsis that you get from getting incrementally better against something you struggled with.

I get that I kind of robbed myself of my own fun, I just wanted to explain my perspective because judging from complaints on social media I'm not the only person who picked up a shield for the first time to get past that boss and I think some of those people are probably experiencing the same disappointment as I did but are expressing it as 'boss too hard ' when really it's a bit more complicated than that.

 

[Hell Swarm]

I liked the DLC as a whole and thought most of the bosses were fun, especially Bayle, it was only the final boss rubbed me up the wrong way because I struggled for around 3-4 hours with my normal build (Dragon Incantations) and then just killed him immediately by equipping a shield. I'm less butthurt about it than I was at release because I reloaded my backup save and tried some non-shield builds that worked later, but it annoyed me at the time that one build could make such a joke out of the boss while it seemed so hard with others.

Shields used to be a trade off in damage, the DLC does away with that because you have so much extra crap you can pad on. A medium sheild and a 1 hand weapon will do less damage than a 2 hand weapon in general. The trade off has always been more defense means longer time to kill and vice versa so there were reasons to pick either. Some of the DLC bosses are much easier because greatshields are now a way to burn your extra levels going into equip load because there's no longer another stat worth pumping. A lot of the DLC bosses will fuck your shit up if you block them with a medium shield and many of them can dead angle you.

There's always been optimal strategies in these games and you can rob yourself of fights if you look at it that way. Personally I see it as part of the perk of your build. Dogs are a nightmare if you're an unga bunga. Dogs are the easiest enemy in the game if you have 100% phys blocking shield. It's give or take.

This has always been the case, if you're playing without a shield you're playing on optional hard mode.

Some would argue that easy mode is 2 handing a big weapon. Grass is always greener.

If you want to see how the game would look if it was built around buff stacking I wholeheartedly recommend the Convergence mod.

Talismans are already buff stacking to a degree. What does convergence do different?

Greatshields in ER have always been completely broken. You can basically hold L1 without any regard for your stamina 99% of the time. Not only that, guard counters are also the strongest possible attack in the game for most weapon types.

They have and there's spells to make them even better. They're also incredibly good in most souls games but they required you level 3 stats to use them. Stamina to block hits, strength to carry them and endurance to have the equip load. Great shields have always been good and almost always will be. It's a matter of the cost to use them.

 

[Max Damage]

Shields are extremely strong in DS3. With a high-tier greatshield and a high investment in Endurance, you can block even the longest combos from Midir and the Soul of Cinder.

Yeah, I have no idea why shields are said to be useless in DS3. They only really sucked in DS2 DLC.

 

[Hell Swarm]

I was watching Loveless's video on bad bosses and Milennia came up and I had an interesting thought. Why would the "Blade of Millequa" ever have to fight? He brain washed everyone, when we fight phase 2 Radahn he isn't even impressive in his abilities. He swings big swords and has gravity magic but so does the boar guy. Radahn has nothing on Godfrey who could completely shred him from the difference in power (millequa being a god is where his powerful stuff comes from). So I was pondering. Has she ever even had to fight in her life? If her brother just mindfucks her opponents she'd never know defeat because they could never fight her. We could be the first true fight she's ever had. Even against Radahn it's clear both sides are being played by rapey boy.

Shields are extremely strong in DS3. With a high-tier greatshield and a high investment in Endurance, you can block even the longest combos from Midir and the Soul of Cinder.

Yeah, I have no idea why shields are said to be useless in DS3. They only really sucked in DS2 DLC.

Some of the more spastic bosses will wreck your stamina bar and leave you open to taking big hits. Shields are only as good as the person using them. If you never let go of LB you're going to take a pasting because you have no stamina. If you're letting go of block and holding it again they're good though.

 

[Vagabond Merchant]

They stuck with their anti-shield guns in [...] DS3

Shields are extremely strong in DS3. With a high-tier greatshield and a high investment in Endurance, you can block even the longest combos from Midir and the Soul of Cinder.

I never even thought of using a shield in ER vanilla. And neither did anyone else, seemingly.

I've been spamming "equip a shield" in this thread since the game got released.

Greatshields in ER have always been completely broken. You can basically hold L1 without any regard for your stamina 99% of the time. Not only that, guard counters are also the strongest possible attack in the game for most weapon types.

Even some normal shields like the Carian Knight shield will block just about anything. I feel like shields have always been strong but rolling has consistently gotten better, so people started playing like that when it became viable.

The "git gud" unarmored unshielded mindset also took over, and now you see people crying about the dlc being too hard while refusing to use shields or ashes, or even considering that as a proper way to play

 

[Odoryuk]

This has always been the case, if you're playing without a shield you're playing on optional hard mode.

This has absolutely NOT been the case since the DS2 DLCs. After seeing how effective turtling is in DS1 and DS2 vanilla FS made a specific effort to neutralize shields and everyone who played the game in sequence knows the moment of sudden clarity when the first DS2 DLC boss (usually Alva) rips you a new one through your favourite impenetrable shield.

They stuck with their anti-shield guns in BB, DS3 and Sekiro so successfully I never even thought of using a shield in ER vanilla. And neither did anyone else, seemingly. I don't even know if shields were good in the vanilla. It wasn't until SotE the shield meta came back after a 10 year hiatus.

Shields are totally viable through all of DS2+DLCs, DS3+DLCs and Elden Ring+DLC. I know that rolling became really popular, but it's for more experienced users, novices could easily beat any game with a shield as their first Souls game.

 

[Vic]

In Elden ring the buffs are often far apart so unless you know ahead of time where to get them the chance of even having them is rather low.

Most players explore everything because that's how the game is designed to be played so I don't understand how the chance of having multiple buffs is low if all it takes is time exploring the map? I guess you won't be buffstacking in early game but by mid and late game that's pretty much a given. I played the game for less than 20 hours and I already was stacking buffs for hard encounters.

 

[Elttharion]

I know he is missing a bonfire, still funny

 

[Max Damage]

Midir was the worst runback for me, especially baffling since there's bonfire next to every other DS3 DLC boss.

 

[Silverfish]

Which demonstrates, what, exactly?

That "everyone understands this" comes into question when such large percentages tap out.

Here comes the next fallacy now: FromSoft games are dumb and simplistic as shit!

It's even more hilarious how hard you fail at logic.

Loses it's punch coming from a guy who was baffled that someone could hold two, non-opposing views simultaneously.

So I was pondering. Has she ever even had to fight in her life?

Classic Frieza scenario. She's a freak of nature who's undeniably powerful, but who gets wrecked the first time she encounters someone with some skill who had to work for it.

 

[abija]

Loses it's punch coming from a guy who was baffled that someone could hold two, non-opposing views simultaneously.

You fail at basic concepts of logic, stop inventing reasons for that. You are either slow or the school system/parents failed you.

 

[Ghost Goat]

I'm going to boost Midra. He was the best. That fight was frustrating, but it felt so good to learn it and beat him without summons. The two that I raged over were Messmer and Radahn. Messmer was probably a skill issue, Radahan ... never again.

 

[Hell Swarm]

I was checking the Elden Ring achievements to try and gauge what the community did but I ran into a small problem with the data. Achievements don't know if you beat the boss legit or if you cheesed it or if you got someone else to beat it. So we'll never know who of the 30% who beat rot bitch up did it legit and who didn't.

 

[Stoned Ape]

I was checking the Elden Ring achievements to try and gauge what the community did but I ran into a small problem with the data. Achievements don't know if you beat the boss legit or if you cheesed it or if you got someone else to beat it. So we'll never know who of the 30% who beat rot bitch up did it legit and who didn't.

It's almost as if Fromsoft don't care how you beat her. Casuals.

 

[Odoryuk]

Actually, beating her with your pals and total strangers is the intended way to defeat that boss. Some of yous forgot the delights of jolly cooperation and it shows

 

[Silverfish]

You fail at basic concepts of logic, stop inventing reasons for that.

"You didn't accept my dishonest framing, thus you fail at basic logic." I thought that I was arguing in bad faith?