From Software Elden Ring - From Software's new game with writing by GRRM

[processdaemon]

At least in my experience your build also trivialized some encounters :p

Yeah I can't argue against that, it's true even with some of the other DLC bosses, anything that moves slow or has long enough openings melts under breath attacks. I wasn't intending to shit on shield users or anything, I certainly don't mind when the occasional boss goes down easy, I think it was just frustrating to go from really having trouble to winning easily because you don't get the same catharsis that you get from getting incrementally better against something you struggled with.

I get that I kind of robbed myself of my own fun, I just wanted to explain my perspective because judging from complaints on social media I'm not the only person who picked up a shield for the first time to get past that boss and I think some of those people are probably experiencing the same disappointment as I did but are expressing it as 'boss too hard ' when really it's a bit more complicated than that.

 

[Hell Swarm]

I liked the DLC as a whole and thought most of the bosses were fun, especially Bayle, it was only the final boss rubbed me up the wrong way because I struggled for around 3-4 hours with my normal build (Dragon Incantations) and then just killed him immediately by equipping a shield. I'm less butthurt about it than I was at release because I reloaded my backup save and tried some non-shield builds that worked later, but it annoyed me at the time that one build could make such a joke out of the boss while it seemed so hard with others.

Shields used to be a trade off in damage, the DLC does away with that because you have so much extra crap you can pad on. A medium sheild and a 1 hand weapon will do less damage than a 2 hand weapon in general. The trade off has always been more defense means longer time to kill and vice versa so there were reasons to pick either. Some of the DLC bosses are much easier because greatshields are now a way to burn your extra levels going into equip load because there's no longer another stat worth pumping. A lot of the DLC bosses will fuck your shit up if you block them with a medium shield and many of them can dead angle you.

There's always been optimal strategies in these games and you can rob yourself of fights if you look at it that way. Personally I see it as part of the perk of your build. Dogs are a nightmare if you're an unga bunga. Dogs are the easiest enemy in the game if you have 100% phys blocking shield. It's give or take.

This has always been the case, if you're playing without a shield you're playing on optional hard mode.

Some would argue that easy mode is 2 handing a big weapon. Grass is always greener.

If you want to see how the game would look if it was built around buff stacking I wholeheartedly recommend the Convergence mod.

Talismans are already buff stacking to a degree. What does convergence do different?

Greatshields in ER have always been completely broken. You can basically hold L1 without any regard for your stamina 99% of the time. Not only that, guard counters are also the strongest possible attack in the game for most weapon types.

They have and there's spells to make them even better. They're also incredibly good in most souls games but they required you level 3 stats to use them. Stamina to block hits, strength to carry them and endurance to have the equip load. Great shields have always been good and almost always will be. It's a matter of the cost to use them.

 

[Max Damage]

Shields are extremely strong in DS3. With a high-tier greatshield and a high investment in Endurance, you can block even the longest combos from Midir and the Soul of Cinder.

Yeah, I have no idea why shields are said to be useless in DS3. They only really sucked in DS2 DLC.

 

[Hell Swarm]

I was watching Loveless's video on bad bosses and Milennia came up and I had an interesting thought. Why would the "Blade of Millequa" ever have to fight? He brain washed everyone, when we fight phase 2 Radahn he isn't even impressive in his abilities. He swings big swords and has gravity magic but so does the boar guy. Radahn has nothing on Godfrey who could completely shred him from the difference in power (millequa being a god is where his powerful stuff comes from). So I was pondering. Has she ever even had to fight in her life? If her brother just mindfucks her opponents she'd never know defeat because they could never fight her. We could be the first true fight she's ever had. Even against Radahn it's clear both sides are being played by rapey boy.

Shields are extremely strong in DS3. With a high-tier greatshield and a high investment in Endurance, you can block even the longest combos from Midir and the Soul of Cinder.

Yeah, I have no idea why shields are said to be useless in DS3. They only really sucked in DS2 DLC.

Some of the more spastic bosses will wreck your stamina bar and leave you open to taking big hits. Shields are only as good as the person using them. If you never let go of LB you're going to take a pasting because you have no stamina. If you're letting go of block and holding it again they're good though.

 

[Vagabond Merchant]

They stuck with their anti-shield guns in [...] DS3

Shields are extremely strong in DS3. With a high-tier greatshield and a high investment in Endurance, you can block even the longest combos from Midir and the Soul of Cinder.

I never even thought of using a shield in ER vanilla. And neither did anyone else, seemingly.

I've been spamming "equip a shield" in this thread since the game got released.

Greatshields in ER have always been completely broken. You can basically hold L1 without any regard for your stamina 99% of the time. Not only that, guard counters are also the strongest possible attack in the game for most weapon types.

Even some normal shields like the Carian Knight shield will block just about anything. I feel like shields have always been strong but rolling has consistently gotten better, so people started playing like that when it became viable.

The "git gud" unarmored unshielded mindset also took over, and now you see people crying about the dlc being too hard while refusing to use shields or ashes, or even considering that as a proper way to play

 

[Odoryuk]

This has always been the case, if you're playing without a shield you're playing on optional hard mode.

This has absolutely NOT been the case since the DS2 DLCs. After seeing how effective turtling is in DS1 and DS2 vanilla FS made a specific effort to neutralize shields and everyone who played the game in sequence knows the moment of sudden clarity when the first DS2 DLC boss (usually Alva) rips you a new one through your favourite impenetrable shield.

They stuck with their anti-shield guns in BB, DS3 and Sekiro so successfully I never even thought of using a shield in ER vanilla. And neither did anyone else, seemingly. I don't even know if shields were good in the vanilla. It wasn't until SotE the shield meta came back after a 10 year hiatus.

Shields are totally viable through all of DS2+DLCs, DS3+DLCs and Elden Ring+DLC. I know that rolling became really popular, but it's for more experienced users, novices could easily beat any game with a shield as their first Souls game.

 

[Vic]

In Elden ring the buffs are often far apart so unless you know ahead of time where to get them the chance of even having them is rather low.

Most players explore everything because that's how the game is designed to be played so I don't understand how the chance of having multiple buffs is low if all it takes is time exploring the map? I guess you won't be buffstacking in early game but by mid and late game that's pretty much a given. I played the game for less than 20 hours and I already was stacking buffs for hard encounters.

 

[Elttharion]

I know he is missing a bonfire, still funny

 

[Max Damage]

Midir was the worst runback for me, especially baffling since there's bonfire next to every other DS3 DLC boss.

 

[Silverfish]

Which demonstrates, what, exactly?

That "everyone understands this" comes into question when such large percentages tap out.

Here comes the next fallacy now: FromSoft games are dumb and simplistic as shit!

It's even more hilarious how hard you fail at logic.

Loses it's punch coming from a guy who was baffled that someone could hold two, non-opposing views simultaneously.

So I was pondering. Has she ever even had to fight in her life?

Classic Frieza scenario. She's a freak of nature who's undeniably powerful, but who gets wrecked the first time she encounters someone with some skill who had to work for it.

 

[abija]

Loses it's punch coming from a guy who was baffled that someone could hold two, non-opposing views simultaneously.

You fail at basic concepts of logic, stop inventing reasons for that. You are either slow or the school system/parents failed you.

 

[Ghost Goat]

I'm going to boost Midra. He was the best. That fight was frustrating, but it felt so good to learn it and beat him without summons. The two that I raged over were Messmer and Radahn. Messmer was probably a skill issue, Radahan ... never again.

 

[Hell Swarm]

I was checking the Elden Ring achievements to try and gauge what the community did but I ran into a small problem with the data. Achievements don't know if you beat the boss legit or if you cheesed it or if you got someone else to beat it. So we'll never know who of the 30% who beat rot bitch up did it legit and who didn't.

 

[Stoned Ape]

I was checking the Elden Ring achievements to try and gauge what the community did but I ran into a small problem with the data. Achievements don't know if you beat the boss legit or if you cheesed it or if you got someone else to beat it. So we'll never know who of the 30% who beat rot bitch up did it legit and who didn't.

It's almost as if Fromsoft don't care how you beat her. Casuals.

 

[Odoryuk]

Actually, beating her with your pals and total strangers is the intended way to defeat that boss. Some of yous forgot the delights of jolly cooperation and it shows

 

[Silverfish]

You fail at basic concepts of logic, stop inventing reasons for that.

"You didn't accept my dishonest framing, thus you fail at basic logic." I thought that I was arguing in bad faith?

 

[Vagabond Merchant]

Actually, beating her with your pals and total strangers is the intended way to defeat that boss. Some of yous forgot the delights of jolly cooperation and it shows

We need Solaire to come back to teach the new kids to be sociable and engage in jolly cooperation

 

[Ravielsk]

Talismans are already buff stacking to a degree. What does convergence do different?

Several things. First and foremost it frontloads the buff spells. Most classes start with one as a a default and can very easily get the buffs from other classes. Just in Limgrave you can get around 3 different buffs including a health regen one. Also you get spell handed out in bundles of 3-4 so you immediately have a full and functional kit which means you do not have to contort yourself to incorporate a incongruent spell or buff into your character, you can simply and fully switch over.
Furthermore it moved all talismans and tears into a crafting system that lets you make what you want whatever you want as long as you have an appropriate material.
And if even that was not enough for you it has a full teleportation system right from the start that lets you warp to any area with an erdtree(including the endgame ones).

The buffs usually have a duration of 1 to 3 minutes and have no limitations on stacking(so no body, weapon, aura or whatever joggling is needed) and your FP regenerates by default. Meaning that you do not need to pursue a particular build to be able to apply more than one buff as buffs lasts long enough for you to apply one, wait for your FP and apply a second one.
Overall it makes including buffs(and stacking them) into your playstyle an immediately viable option and if you know what you want to do it lets you speedrun to whatever items you might need.

To compensate most buffs do not go beyond a 5% boost to damage or 10% damage reduction so stacking them while significantly less cumbersome than in a vanilla it also does not grant you the same metheoric jumps in power. Most are in fact utility based like recovering FP when hitting enemies or countering the summoning debuff(new mechanic that cuts your stats based on the power of the used summon).
There are a few more things but you should get the idea of the delta between how vanilla ER does things and how convergence does them.

 

[Itoh]

People praised the DLC's bosses - and I certainly liked a few of them - but overall I felt they continued to lean into their very worst design impulses, reveling in the idea of being "hard" at immeasurable cost to things like verisimilitude and worldbuilding. Just like it's bullshit and immersion-ruining that Malenia keys off your controller input and levitates into the air to begin a thrusting attack before your character has even started the flask-drinking animation, it's bullshit how many of the DLC's bosses are designed with frame-perfect dodge rolls in mind. "I-frames" as a concept should not even exist, let alone become a cornerstone of your gameplay. If you force me to dodgeroll through an arena-wide explosion, causing me to miraculously avoid damage as flaming lava washes over me, then you no longer deserve the acclaim of "great worldbuilding." You haven't created a world that makes any sort of sense. If you force me to start thinking about frame data and hitboxes then you have completely failed at that job. At that point I'm just playing Street Fighter against you, the dev. No longer an RPG, no longer an adventure, barely even a game.

I'm late to this, but it struck me that instead of the silly looking dodge From should use a ghostform option for i-frames. Instead of rolling around like a hedgehog you'd just turn ethereal for a second or two. This would have the advantages of 1)making sense in terms of flavor as your character is usually somewhere between life and death, 2) making it perfectly clear when you have your I-frames and when you don't, and 3) maybe leading to some additional design space, where you could hold down B to stay invincible for longer at the cost of rapidly increasing stamina consumption. IDK why they haven't done something like this

 

[MasPingon]

People praised the DLC's bosses - and I certainly liked a few of them - but overall I felt they continued to lean into their very worst design impulses, reveling in the idea of being "hard" at immeasurable cost to things like verisimilitude and worldbuilding. Just like it's bullshit and immersion-ruining that Malenia keys off your controller input and levitates into the air to begin a thrusting attack before your character has even started the flask-drinking animation, it's bullshit how many of the DLC's bosses are designed with frame-perfect dodge rolls in mind. "I-frames" as a concept should not even exist, let alone become a cornerstone of your gameplay. If you force me to dodgeroll through an arena-wide explosion, causing me to miraculously avoid damage as flaming lava washes over me, then you no longer deserve the acclaim of "great worldbuilding." You haven't created a world that makes any sort of sense. If you force me to start thinking about frame data and hitboxes then you have completely failed at that job. At that point I'm just playing Street Fighter against you, the dev. No longer an RPG, no longer an adventure, barely even a game.

I'm late to this, but it struck me that instead of the silly looking dodge From should use a ghostform option for i-frames. Instead of rolling around like a hedgehog you'd just turn ethereal for a second or two. This would have the advantages of 1)making sense in terms of flavor as your character is usually somewhere between life and death, 2) making it perfectly clear when you have your I-frames and when you don't, and 3) maybe leading to some additional design space, where you could hold down B to stay invincible for longer at the cost of rapidly increasing stamina consumption. IDK why they haven't done something like this

All I want to see in their next game is something they've already done - a blend of dodge from Bloodborne and parry from Sekiro. Rolling is retarded, that I agree.

 

[abija]

"You didn't accept my dishonest framing, thus you fail at basic logic." I thought that I was arguing in bad faith?

Quoting you and asking to clarify is dishonest framing... sure.

Yes. Elden Ring, in my view, shouldn't have bothered with a map considering that previous entries in its own series made worlds that could be navigated without and it's inclusion is a concession to a more casual audience. Simultaneously, Bethesda and Obsidian have made open world settings that better utilize clearly marked 'intended' paths and points of interest despite their use of maps.

When devs add an open world and a map for that open world you can't claim it should work without it and use "it worked without a map when there was no open world" as an argument. There's no implication there.
Similarly, you can't use as an argument "clearly marked intended routes should be enough without a map" when your examples have both those and a map. Again, no implication. It's almost the opposite of what you claim, considering they did a better job marking routes and still wanted a map.

If you want to argue the devs made a wrong choice, you need actual facts to support "your view". Instead you just made it clear you have no grasp of basic logic.

 

[Hell Swarm]

All I want to see in their next game is something they've already done - a blend of dodge from Bloodborne and parry from Sekiro. Rolling is retarded, that I agree.

I want to see Souls games as a genre die off completely so action games can get away from iframe stamina managament and get back to skill based combat and worlds enjoyable to explore.

 

[Lyric Suite]

Are spells considered a cheat too or just buffs:



BTW, considering the duration of buffs, it's clear to me their actual intended use is to get past the first phase of a boss, which in itself is just training ground for what comes past (otherwise, why have phases at all? Just let the bosses start at full power).

 

[Silverfish]

When devs add an open world and a map for that open world you can't claim it should work without it and use "it worked without a map when there was no open world" as an argument.

Except that I can and have. Elden Ring's world is an advancement of the open-ended design of Dark Souls and DS2, not some radical new concept. Comparisons are more than fair.

Similarly, you can't use as an argument "clearly marked intended routes should be enough without a map" when your examples have both those and a map.

Yes, Beth games and New Vegas have maps. The reason I pointed these games out was that despite use of maps, they can be easily navigated without and make better use of points of interest or, in some cases, quite literal signposting. Furthermore, why shouldn't From's open world design improve upon those games? ER came out years later and had lots of successes and failures to learn from.

If you want to argue the devs made a wrong choice, you need actual facts to support "your view".

No I don't.

 

[Lyric Suite]

You don't need the map for anything in Elden Ring except for fast traveling. It's literally worse to use the map for orientation than to actually learn your surroundings directly by looking at them. I played the entirety of Elden Ring as if it was Dark Souls, only popping up the map to travel around the sites of grace (and with so many of them, the map is definitely a welcome addition).