Putting the 'role' back in role-playing games since 2002.
Donate to Codex
Good Old Games
  • Welcome to rpgcodex.net, a site dedicated to discussing computer based role-playing games in a free and open fashion. We're less strict than other forums, but please refer to the rules.

    "This message is awaiting moderator approval": All new users must pass through our moderation queue before they will be able to post normally. Until your account has "passed" your posts will only be visible to yourself (and moderators) until they are approved. Give us a week to get around to approving / deleting / ignoring your mundane opinion on crap before hassling us about it. Once you have passed the moderation period (think of it as a test), you will be able to post normally, just like all the other retards.

From Software Elden Ring - From Software's new game with writing by GRRM

Ghost Goat

Novice
Joined
Oct 15, 2023
Messages
13
But you're right on the duration, I feel like that's what invalidates most buffs for a first-time player. If you don't know the boss (and the game), you risk losing most buffs before having had the chance to smack him even once. Of course there are exceptions (I'd say anything that lasts 60+ seconds, like Golden Vow and almost all weapon buffs), but their generally short duration makes the hard to use if you don't know what you're doing. But once you know the game, 60 seconds are more than enough to gain great benefits from them.
The issue isn't just duration though it's making the game tedious. Having to switch to your casting weapon, switch spells, switch back to your normal weapon and/or 2 handing. It's a bunch of busy work that makes reentering a boss fight annoying. Using lobos as an example again, he knew he'd be at some bosses a while and he decided not to use buffs because doing them would make it more annoying to fight the boss. I guess you could call it "buff fatigue", but juggling anything more than say golden vow or a weapon resin/enchant gets tedious if you're entering the fight multiple times.
You ignored my post because it directly contradicts everything you said.
I ignored your post because you had nothing to respond to and you're retarded. You can't make an argument and any time you're soundly beaten you cry bad faith. Frankly you're lucky I even replied to you at all here. I don't usually talk to liberals.
If you cast D and your numbers don't go up, it means D does nothing for you. There's no point in testing anything else.
I wish it was that simple but From don't tell you exact numbers. So lets say A and D don't stack, but D is better than A, except when you have C equipped because some buffs buff each others and others don't. Do you're having to juggle talismans and such. And then you run into bosses resistant to your +10 fire damage so your +10 physical is better. But then is it still better with buffs ABCD or are we back to testing 16 times before a boss resisting you? It's a lot of tedium in a game most people enjoy because it doesn't force tedium on you. You just equip your shit and go into the action after the opening cut scene or a boss cut scene.
But Mohg is a very good and fair fight.
Big Mogh is objectively the most unfair fight in any souls like I've ever heard of. He's the only boss I've ever encountered where you cannot avoid damage except to burst him down. You can't dodge his phase transition and even if you use the flask it still chips you. I like him and find him fun but objectively there is no way to avoid damage except as a DPS check and there's nothing like that I've run into any where else. Even 4kings which is a DPS check is in theory possible to avoid damage. It's also unfair that From uses the same fire animation for harmless environmental effects in the area and his blood fire attacks. There are times you have safe space that looks like a hazard.

DPS bursting was the only way I made it through some of the DLC bosses, in fact. There were a couple exceptions (Midra, Lion and Rellanna were fun once I groked their moves) but the majority of them felt like a DPS race. Maybe I was too lazy to learn the bosses. IDK. By some miracle I managed to swat Romina on the first try by rushing in and spamming Lion's Claw on the Giant Crusher.
 

Hell Swarm

Learned
Joined
Jun 16, 2023
Messages
2,144
this doesn't makes easy things suddenly incredibly hard.

How many times do you have to try a boss fight to actually get tired of casting 2-3 spells?
I hate to use the 'normalfag' meme but that's exactly what we're discussing here. Remember how everyone made fun of Elon Musk's Elden ring build? That's the type of player we're discussing here and that makes up 99% of the people playing these games. They're not autists like us discussing it on forums.

I get sick applying a resin let alone multiple buffs by the end of my SL1 run I gave up on buffs because it was tedious to enter the boss rooms and it was better being a glass cannon than dealing with it any further.. Especially since From games often fuck up the buffering and it can fuck you over in a fight. My coop partner never uses 2 weapons, always just been a straight 2 hand str user. Multiple times throughout the play through they ended up 2 handing their off hand staff because From's buffering sucks. I've had the same issue countless times where I end up 2 handing my shield due to input buffering. In theory it's easy and not a problem but remember you're starting to juggle a lot more than just pushing L1 multiple times, you're on a timer to get through the door and if you hit something too fast or it buffers for whatever ungodly reason it does some times it just fucks you.
 

abija

Prophet
Joined
May 21, 2011
Messages
3,299
I played like a normal fag and you somehow ignore it because it doesn't fit your arguments.
 

cvv

Arcane
Patron
Joined
Mar 30, 2013
Messages
18,983
Location
Kingdom of Bohemia
Enjoy the Revolution! Another revolution around the sun that is.
Personally I don't think applying 1-3 buffs is anything abnormal. And it's also not the automatic WIN button.

I usually try a boss for a couple of times without buffs, just to see what I'm dealing with, and then start buffing. In my crusader run in SotE I usually applied Golden Vow and then used the Sacred Blade ash to buff my Black Steel Greathammer.

But yeah, sometimes I have so many runs at the boss I get tired of buffing. Like in the Messmer fight I realized after like two hours I can just grab a big old greatshield and block 95% of his shit, without bothering with stupid buffs. I still wonder how people reliably fight that asshole without a shield.
 

cruel

Prophet
Joined
Sep 17, 2014
Messages
1,031
This whole buff discussion makes it look like you need a PhD in buffing, but in reality you don't. My thought process was this:
- fighting Messmer, he hits me hard
- after 5 tries, he still hits me hard
- hmm, the game sold him as a Flame guy and he is using a lot of Flame stuff
- was there a whole school of incantations related to Flame?
- (checks inventory of incantations for flame stuff and looks for the words 'increase fire resistance'
- finds 'Flame, Protect Me'
- uses 'Flame, Protect Me' -> quick status check before and after -> fire resistance goes from 63% to 85% --> makes me happy

I don't give a shit about other buffs at this point. Flame Protect Me is the only thing you need to make Messmer WAY more manageable, and I don't think it required any crazy research. The other thing that helped is realizing that the attack he is doing at the start of phase 2 takes few seconds, which is enough to re-cast it.

This is actually one of the best things in From games for me - the game forces you to rethink your strategy and THINK at certain points. I needed to drop my dual Colossal Sword setup for this fight and adapt (regular Greatsword instead), and there is nothing wrong with that. Less equipment weight allowed me to drop Arsenal talisman and combine FP regen + fire resist talisman, so another win.
 

Strange Fellow

Peculiar
Patron
Joined
Jun 21, 2018
Messages
4,241
Steve gets a Kidney but I don't even get a tag.
Big Mogh is objectively the most unfair fight in any souls like I've ever heard of. He's the only boss I've ever encountered where you cannot avoid damage except to burst him down. You can't dodge his phase transition and even if you use the flask it still chips you. I like him and find him fun but objectively there is no way to avoid damage except as a DPS check and there's nothing like that I've run into any where else. Even 4kings which is a DPS check is in theory possible to avoid damage. It's also unfair that From uses the same fire animation for harmless environmental effects in the area and his blood fire attacks. There are times you have safe space that looks like a hazard.
Doesn't using the physick nullify the damage, even though he still heals? Anyway, it doesn't matter. People bitched about unavoidable damage in the Nito fight as well and it just doesn't matter. It's a thing you heal through and go about your business. It's impossible for me to imagine actually getting upset about it and relating it to some point about game design or whatever, because it's so inoffensive. It's cool and atmospheric so it has a reason to exist, and that's that.
 

Hell Swarm

Learned
Joined
Jun 16, 2023
Messages
2,144
I don't give a shit about other buffs at this point. Flame Protect Me is the only thing you need to make Messmer WAY more manageable, and I don't think it required any crazy research. The other thing that helped is realizing that the attack he is doing at the start of phase 2 takes few seconds, which is enough to re-cast it.
Defensive buffs aren't the buffs we're focusing on because you're right it's easy to boost your resistances that way. We're talking stacking multiple damage buffs so you skip entire boss phases.
Big Mogh is objectively the most unfair fight in any souls like I've ever heard of. He's the only boss I've ever encountered where you cannot avoid damage except to burst him down. You can't dodge his phase transition and even if you use the flask it still chips you. I like him and find him fun but objectively there is no way to avoid damage except as a DPS check and there's nothing like that I've run into any where else. Even 4kings which is a DPS check is in theory possible to avoid damage. It's also unfair that From uses the same fire animation for harmless environmental effects in the area and his blood fire attacks. There are times you have safe space that looks like a hazard.
Doesn't using the physick nullify the damage, even though he still heals? Anyway, it doesn't matter. People bitched about unavoidable damage in the Nito fight as well and it just doesn't matter. It's a thing you heal through and go about your business. It's impossible for me to imagine actually getting upset about it and relating it to some point about game design or whatever, because it's so inoffensive. It's cool and atmospheric so it has a reason to exist, and that's that.
Not completely, it reduces it greatly but it's still enough to kill you if you're at like 10% health.
 

cvv

Arcane
Patron
Joined
Mar 30, 2013
Messages
18,983
Location
Kingdom of Bohemia
Enjoy the Revolution! Another revolution around the sun that is.
We're talking stacking multiple damage buffs so you skip entire boss phases.
You're not gonna skip anything applying just Golden Vow and a weapon buff like Sacred Blade. I don't know what exactly are these guys in the videos doing but the kind of buffing I was using isn't gonna drop the Messmer or Radahn fight from very hard to easy.
 

Hell Swarm

Learned
Joined
Jun 16, 2023
Messages
2,144

This video might help some of you understand where I'm coming from. I assume the people who actually need to watch it won't, but hopefully my perspective will make a bit more sense.
 

Odoryuk

Educated
Joined
Mar 26, 2024
Messages
619

This video might help some of you understand where I'm coming from. I assume the people who actually need to watch it won't, but hopefully my perspective will make a bit more sense.


That's kinda cool that you can do this, huh
 

NJClaw

OoOoOoOoOoh
Patron
Joined
Aug 30, 2016
Messages
7,587
Location
Pronouns: rusts/rusty
Pathfinder: Wrath I'm very into cock and ball torture

This video might help some of you understand where I'm coming from. I assume the people who actually need to watch it won't, but hopefully my perspective will make a bit more sense.

Wow, no item swapping to also get the bonuses from Kindred of Rot's Exultation, Mushroom Crown, Poisoned Hand, Aged One's Exultation, Black Dumpling, and Madding Hand. What a noob, is he even trying? He's basically halving his damage!
 

Lyric Suite

Converting to Islam
Joined
Mar 23, 2006
Messages
58,301
This whole buff discussion makes it look like you need a PhD in buffing, but in reality you don't. My thought process was this:
- fighting Messmer, he hits me hard
- after 5 tries, he still hits me hard
- hmm, the game sold him as a Flame guy and he is using a lot of Flame stuff
- was there a whole school of incantations related to Flame?
- (checks inventory of incantations for flame stuff and looks for the words 'increase fire resistance'
- finds 'Flame, Protect Me'
- uses 'Flame, Protect Me' -> quick status check before and after -> fire resistance goes from 63% to 85% --> makes me happy

I don't give a shit about other buffs at this point. Flame Protect Me is the only thing you need to make Messmer WAY more manageable, and I don't think it required any crazy research. The other thing that helped is realizing that the attack he is doing at the start of phase 2 takes few seconds, which is enough to re-cast it.

This is actually one of the best things in From games for me - the game forces you to rethink your strategy and THINK at certain points. I needed to drop my dual Colossal Sword setup for this fight and adapt (regular Greatsword instead), and there is nothing wrong with that. Less equipment weight allowed me to drop Arsenal talisman and combine FP regen + fire resist talisman, so another win.

They are coping. One wonders how anybody expected the "average" player to even finish Baldur's Gate or Icewind Dale. All those priest buffs that are like 10 times more complex to understand than anything Elden Ring.
 

Vic

Savant
Undisputed Queen of Faggotry Bethestard
Joined
Oct 24, 2018
Messages
5,760
Location
[REDACTED]
Anybody who plays RPGs knows about prebuffing. The argument against it can only come from a normie retard like Hell Swarm who plays FPS with his feet on a controller.

And for those that don't know, there's always YouTube and reddit to show them the light.
 

Hell Swarm

Learned
Joined
Jun 16, 2023
Messages
2,144
They are coping. One wonders how anybody expected the "average" player to even finish Baldur's Gate or Icewind Dale. All those priest buffs that are like 10 times more complex to understand than anything Elden Ring.
Every argument is dumber than the last.

Totally different genres with totally different audiences.
According to steam achievement tracker 20% of people finished BG3 and 8% of people finished IWD.

Doesn't mean those who didn't didn't understand buffing but it's comparing apples to oranges. Elden Ring isn't an RPG the same way those two are and they usually explain a lot more than "it adds some damage maybe lol" as every item description. Buffing in most PC RPGs involves clicking on your buff button while your animations play out or it's paused. It doesn't involve having to constantly switch your equipment and multiple button presses. Buffing in most CRPGs is 1, maybe 2 mouse clicks if you have a target or it's a single keyboard press. And that's for every buff. From buffing has to use the d pad to switch and then input an attack command, then put away your casting stuff. it's 3 times the button inputs and it's also attached to a game that intentionally makes you grind bosses and instills a lot of fatigue in people.
 

Lyric Suite

Converting to Islam
Joined
Mar 23, 2006
Messages
58,301

Totally different genres with totally different audiences.

Again, you just pulled that out of your ass. The premise doesn't actually follow the conclusion even if you could show this to be true. Even if Souls games and RPGs like Baldur's Gate constitute two distinct player bases, you still have no proof whatsoever that people who play Souls are dumber than the people who play Baldur's Gate when it comes to figuring out basic shit like buffing.

Every single thing that comes out of your mouth is either a fallacy, a strawman, a red herring when you are not outright gas lighting or lying through your teeth.

According to steam achievement tracker 20% of people finished BG3 and 8% of people finished IWD.

Which demonstrates, what, exactly?

Oh right, nothing whatsoever. it's an utterly meaningless fact completely irrelevant to the argument.

Doesn't mean those who didn't didn't understand buffing but it's comparing apples to oranges

The question i posed to you is that if buffing in Souls is too difficult to figure out for most people, who do you think plays DnD based games, Mensa members?

My argument was intended to show the inanity of the point you were trying to make, that the average Souls player is too dumb to figure out incredibly basic shit like stacking two buffs, a claim that is simply absurd. If Souls players were really that dumb they wouldn't be able to get out of the house, let alone playing something as difficult as a FromSoft game.

Here comes the next fallacy now: FromSoft games are dumb and simplistic as shit! They are literally slop of course they are played by retards who can't undestand buffs. Waiting for it in 3... 2... 1...
 

abija

Prophet
Joined
May 21, 2011
Messages
3,299
Kind reminder this whole buffs bullshit started from:

Hell Swarm" said:
He stacked a bunch of buffs and killed it with a meta weapon to the point where it never even entered 2 of it's phases. The storm phase and the ice phase come after lightning (orders random). So he didn't have patience or tolerance, he looked up all the buffs on a wiki, stacked them with a meta weapon and went "I'm so good at this game!" when he's doing so much damage the bosses barely react.
golden vow and shabiri without a great rune active, result being ~2k per hit on a boss that's supposed to be an "undeniably damage sponge" and harder than Malenia. And apparently "normal fags" cannot possibly reach those results, that's reserved for "autists with a wiki".

When people say stuff like
Personally I don't think applying 1-3 buffs is anything abnormal. And it's also not the automatic WIN button.
(which is absolutely true in this case even if cvv probably didn't even know the video or that it originated this crap), you link an extreme buffing guide as if it that's what the discussion was about.

Textbook arguing in bad faith.
 

Hell Swarm

Learned
Joined
Jun 16, 2023
Messages
2,144
It's hilarious that Lyric literally admits to being part of a different audience repeatedly and then goes "What audience!? There's no difference." now. When before he was shit on repeatedly for admitting he doesn't like action games just From games because he can break them.
 

abija

Prophet
Joined
May 21, 2011
Messages
3,299
It's hilarious how you try to sidetrack again the argument.
It's even more hilarious how hard you fail at logic. Apparently "Lyric doesn't like action games just From games" implies "Lyric isn't included in ER target audience".
 

Odoryuk

Educated
Joined
Mar 26, 2024
Messages
619
A lot of talk about bad faith here... In my opinion... All faith is bad

y7xub9r.png
 

Lyric Suite

Converting to Islam
Joined
Mar 23, 2006
Messages
58,301
It's hilarious how you try to sidetrack again the argument.
It's even more hilarious how hard you fail at logic. Apparently "Lyric doesn't like action games just From games" implies "Lyric isn't included in ER target audience".

He is implying the reason i only like FromSoft games is that i can "break them", meaning i wouldn't be able to play other action games because i would suck too much at them and couldn't "cheat" my way out by using things like "buffs".

Of course, there is a FromSoft game that cannot be "broken", which is Sekiro. Wonder how he is going to get out of the contradiciton on that one. I guess all he could say is that Sekiro is super easy and requires no skill?
 

processdaemon

Scholar
Patron
Joined
Jul 14, 2023
Messages
619
I liked the DLC as a whole and thought most of the bosses were fun, especially Bayle, it was only the final boss rubbed me up the wrong way because I struggled for around 3-4 hours with my normal build (Dragon Incantations) and then just killed him immediately by equipping a shield. I'm less butthurt about it than I was at release because I reloaded my backup save and tried some non-shield builds that worked later, but it annoyed me at the time that one build could make such a joke out of the boss while it seemed so hard with others.

I know that Fromsoft games aren't exactly perfectly balanced, especially at release, and it's possible that shields trivialise all the bosses that much and I was just blissfully unaware because I'd never really used them before, but I'd never really felt like I had to change tack as drastically as that and it felt unsatisfying to do it at the last minute. And yes, that is partially on me for not persevering with my chosen build, I just didn't expect it to go from painfully challenging to piss easy like that, if I'd had to struggle a little bit with the shield it probably would have left less of a bad taste in my mouth to be honest.
 

Strange Fellow

Peculiar
Patron
Joined
Jun 21, 2018
Messages
4,241
Steve gets a Kidney but I don't even get a tag.
This has always been the case, if you're playing without a shield you're playing on optional hard mode.
 

As an Amazon Associate, rpgcodex.net earns from qualifying purchases.
Back
Top Bottom