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From Software Elden Ring - From Software's new game with writing by GRRM

Anonona

Savant
Joined
Oct 24, 2019
Messages
689
If you say so, but i distinctly remember seeing DMC animu shit in some Dragon Dogma videos i've seen.
DD's combat offers a certain array of play style depending on skills and vocations

So you can go from down-to earth vocations like Fighter, Archer and Mage to more "animu" ones like Mystic Spear, Thief and Magick Archer. And even then, depending on your skill loadout, Vocations like Thief and Magick Archer can be quite down to earth, Warrior and Sorcerer have different degree of realism and Archer can go from skilled marksman to Legolas.

DD2's physic engine in particular does give the fights a more grounded feel. For example, bashing a goblin with a shield, seeing it reel backwards from the impact and then tripping and falling off a cliff, or being able to make a Cyclops lost balance because you tackle it while running or falling from a considerable height, and them it slips on its own weapon while tumbling back. It has a considerable amount of emergent gameplay. And the player himself isn't free of these kind of things happening to him.

I wouldn't call Dragon's Dogma's combat inherently better. Each game has very different goals with its combat system and influences. They are both good games that have very different interpretations of ARPGs with exploration. Souls focus on solo combat with a dreamy and dark world, while DD2 feels like the best translation to action game of DnD, focusing on adventure and teamplay.
 

Stoned Ape

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The belly of the whale
Personally, I think the things DD2 does better than ER in combat involve the feeling of weight and momentum, the number of abilities you can assign (and how they are tied to Vocations rather than specific weapons or ashes of war), better 1v many combat, and a far superior physics engine.

I think ER is far more challenging unless you use mods or run some sort of challenge mode, DD2 is very, very easy.

The world in DD2 feels far more alive than ER.

I think ER has far more interesting lore, generally better looking armour and weapons, superior art design, more interesting unique dungeons.

I still think Bitterblack Isle is more atmospheric than anything in either of the other two games and is up there in level design with anything from ER. The only thing holding it back is how damage scaling is tied to level in DD1 which means you have to resort to throwblast spam to kill anything tough if you try to complete the dungeon at a lower level.
 

Machocruz

Arcane
Joined
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Messages
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Hyperborea
BBI is a GOAT'd crawl, at least relative to this degraded era of dungeon design. Harkens back to the halcyon days of the 80s-early 2000s.
 

Odoryuk

Educated
Joined
Mar 26, 2024
Messages
657
I'm too much of a fromdrone to enjoy DD, I'm sorry. I tried the first game recently and visually, storywise and, the most important, atmosphere–wise it's so bland that I didn't care about the combat at all. Maybe it is technically better (though I doubt it, maybe DD2 has the better combat, but I don't have any incentives to try it anymore), but nothing supports this combat. Believing in the world is one of the most important aspects to me, and FS always delivers the best worlds
 

Anonona

Savant
Joined
Oct 24, 2019
Messages
689
I tried the first game recently and visually, storywise and, the most important, atmosphere–wise it's so bland

I find the aesthetics of DD actually to be fantastic and to achieve with flying colors what they are trying to do; they are old DnD, both DD1 and 2. They are very much a love letter to RPGs. The pawns banter, the design of armors, the usage of old english, the down to earth monsters. Calling it bland is missing the point, as it was intentionally created to evoke a feeling of true classic fantasy.

Here is a piece of official artwork done as an homage to DnD.

dragons-dogma-2-dungeons-and-dragons.webp


Just look at some of the promotional in-engine images. These could have perfectly been taken from a RPG's bestiary

sg-dragons-dogma-2-monster-chimera.jpg
dd2-cyclops.jpg


Without mentioning the numerous inspirations on classic mythology and art when it came to monster design. Like the fact they gave Cyclops tusk in a nod to the origin of the myth being the discovery of elephants skulls which were mistaken as having a single eye.

5462.jpg
1-77.jpg


As for the plot, both game have big issues with pacing and writing sadly, but DD1 actually pulls off a interesting twist near the endgame that makes the game world far more interesting and re contextualizes the premise of the game, and even links plot elements into game play mechanics. DD2 tries to do the same but it isn't near as effective and it relays in part of having played DD1 to really appreciate them.

Also the expansion of DD1, Dark Arisen, is dripping with dark fantasy atmosphere, one of the reason is one of the most regarded parts of the first game.

DD1 in particular is a game that does take time to show its true value. Is a bit of a meme that the game only starts getting good after the oxcart quest, but there is true in it. I remember back when DD1 released on PS3 I wasn't too impressed at the beginning of the game, but by the end it I end up really liking it. They are kind of niche though, so it is normal if you are not into them.
 
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Odoryuk

Educated
Joined
Mar 26, 2024
Messages
657
Calling it bland is missing the point, as it was intentionally created to evoke a feeling of true classic fantasy.
Yeah, I guess I was never a fan of classic fantasy imagery and always liked more messed up fantasy.

I'm remembering how when I replay Dark Souls, when I get to the DLC area I always get disappointed by this boss, because I always forget about its existence solely because of its lackluster design:

Boss_0041_Sanctuary%20Guardian.jpg
 

Lyric Suite

Converting to Islam
Joined
Mar 23, 2006
Messages
58,560
I have no issue with classic fantasy. I also don't think FromSoft's art is great merely because the fantastic elements are "messed up". The art is just good in itself. Would be good with generic fantasy too.

While i do have some preferences of my own generally i care more about execution than the subject of the art. Most of my pet peeves, when i have any, have more to do with the style. I prefer art that is serious and grounded over cartoony stuff for instance.

I actually had half a mind of starting DD1 now that i finished Bioshock but i better wait until i'm done with my current job. I don't want to repeat the mistake i did with the Elden Ring DLC where i dragged it for two months just because i could only play three days out of a week and sometimes barely even that.
 

The Decline

Arcane
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Messages
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Everywhere
I actually had half a mind of starting DD1 now that i finished Bioshock but i better wait until i'm done with my current job. I don't want to repeat the mistake i did with the Elden Ring DLC where i dragged it for two months just because i could only play three days out of a week and sometimes barely even that.

Would playing it on your Steam Deck give you more time? It runs great on it.
 

DJOGamer PT

Arcane
Joined
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I wouldn't call Dragon's Dogma's combat inherently better. Each game has very different goals with its combat system and influences.
Agree
Their combat systems are fundamentally distinct, so trying to argue which one is "objectively better designed" usually fails because it's starting from an erroneous premise

Still, even within the "Souls" type combat system I think From has been surpassed by others
 

DJOGamer PT

Arcane
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Messages
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Lusitânia
DD2's fights are grounded compared to ER's anime fights
If you say so, but i distinctly remember seeing DMC animu shit in some Dragon Dogma videos i've seen.

Capcom's animu shit > From's animu shit


Most complex ER player combo (it's a canned animation):
giphy.webp


DD2 simplest combo:



Most exicting ER fight agaisnt a large enemy:
giphy.webp


Dullest DD2 large enemy showdown:
 
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Joined
Mar 18, 2009
Messages
7,663
It's a bit like when people post DMC video where some combo tryhard is rendering a regular pushover enemy completely helpless and expect people unfamiliar with it to see from that video why combat in those games is good. Nobody is getting convinced by those videos, and generally people need to actually play the game to see why it's fun.
 

DJOGamer PT

Arcane
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It's a bit like when people post DMC video where some combo tryhard is rendering a regular pushover enemy completely helpless and expect people unfamiliar with it to see from that video why combat in those games is good. Nobody is getting convinced by those videos, and generally people need to actually play the game to see why it's fun.
It's just a funny shitpost man
Also poking fun at LS self-contradiction regarding him not liking rule of cool anime silliness, but turning a blind eye everytime From does it (even when they're being as over the top, if not more, than the opposing game)

Still, even for someone who has played ER but hasn't played DD, those videos make it evident that the latter's combat system is more freeform and has a greater depth of interaction than the former
 
Joined
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Messages
7,663
Still, even for someone who has played ER but hasn't played DD, those videos make it evident that the latter's combat system is more freeform and has a greater depth of interaction than the former

Oh I'm certain the combat is more freeform and has more depth of interaction. If a game designed by DMC guy wouldn't even have that it would be a pretty big fail. Doesn't seem like it's something From Soft fans are looking for though. If you actually see nothing wrong with combat in ER I don't think videos of other games will convince you.
 

Hell Swarm

Learned
Joined
Jun 16, 2023
Messages
2,144
Doesn't seem like it's something From Soft fans are looking for though. If you actually see nothing wrong with combat in ER I don't think videos of other games will convince you.
I am a From fan
I am looking for more depth to From combat

I have been looking for it since Dark souls 3 and so have many of the original Souls fans. The argument has been "If you're going to sacrifice the adventure for combat then make the combat more interesting and complex. Let the player keep up with the weeaboo bosses or stop making weeaboo bosses"

I enjoyed the extra depth I recently got from a mod. It wasn't a lot but it was more and I appreciated a modder making From look like a bunch of lazy faggots recycling content rather than improving on it. 15 long swords with the same move set when they could have easily added basic combo deviation and made most of them unique. I don't need a magic long sword upgrade and a default magic upgraded sword. They're the same thing and a waste of everyone's time to exist. If From weren't utter faggots they might have tied weapons to bosses souls DMC style and given the player much more interesting reason to grind shitty bosses than "it's a deathroot and a summon worse than Mimic tear"
 
Joined
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Messages
7,663
I have been looking for it since Dark souls 3 and so have many of the original Souls fans. The argument has been "If you're going to sacrifice the adventure for combat then make the combat more interesting and complex. Let the player keep up with the weeaboo bosses or stop making weeaboo bosses"

Well I'm definitely in full agreement with that argument. When I said FS fans I meant the type that counters any criticism of their combat design with "skill issue". And there seems to be plenty of them. I don't think these people are looking for any changes and most of them probably don't play melee action games outside FS catalogue or their copycats.
 
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Lyric Suite

Converting to Islam
Joined
Mar 23, 2006
Messages
58,560
It has nothing to do with not wanting change, we just don't want the combat system to become what you like.

I don't want Souls to become Ninja Gaiden or DMC or Monster Hunter. I had no problem with Sekiro, so it's not a question of change.
 

Odoryuk

Educated
Joined
Mar 26, 2024
Messages
657
I don't think these people are looking for any changes
Demon's Souls, Dark Souls trilogy, Bloodborne and Elden Ring are full of changes that separate these games from each other. I'm looking towards these kind of changes, even though the games clearly made from the same mould. I didn't need Sekiro, and I clearly don't need them to make DMC style combat (which they actually did on the original XBox already. Twice). Also there's not a single good FS copycat in the industry (and even if there are good devs, them trying to be copycats undermines their games)
 

Hell Swarm

Learned
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Messages
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I don't think these people are looking for any changes
Demon's Souls, Dark Souls trilogy, Bloodborne and Elden Ring are full of changes that separate these games from each other. I'm looking towards these kind of changes, even though the games clearly made from the same mould. I didn't need Sekiro, and I clearly don't need them to make DMC style combat (which they actually did on the original XBox already. Twice). Also there's not a single good FS copycat in the industry (and even if there are good devs, them trying to be copycats undermines their games)
Do we really have to have this bullshit argument again? There's no meaningful differences in any of the combat systems in the souls series.


4:30 to 7:30.

Argument still applies just as it did 7 years ago. Nothing has changed or improved. The only addition is guard countering which is basically the same as blocking then attacking any way and arch thrones (DaS3 mod) implemented it far better. They made a perfect block let you guard counter while From lets you spam it and break the game with no skill or effort.
 

Odoryuk

Educated
Joined
Mar 26, 2024
Messages
657
There's no meaningful differences in any of the combat systems in the souls series.
There's enough difference to make the games feel distinct from one another and there's a lot more room to add new features. Jumping alone changed Elden Ring a lot compared to older Souls games, and I'm not even talking about the game expecting the player to poise break most of the enemies (to the point were even measly slimes got a poise broken state).
I'm not talking about the games being totally different and having different gameplay, of course. They can continue working on their ARPG formula without breaking into other genres and people will love it.
And Sekiro is a totally different beast (to the point that it created a different camp of players who wants new Sekiro and never liked Souls and probably never will), which just shows that they can make something different.
 

Lyric Suite

Converting to Islam
Joined
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Messages
58,560
Complaining that FromSoft has milked the same combat system across several titles when that's pretty much how Japanese developers operate seems to be another case of "it's only bad when FromSoft does it".
 

Lyric Suite

Converting to Islam
Joined
Mar 23, 2006
Messages
58,560
DD2's fights are grounded compared to ER's anime fights
If you say so, but i distinctly remember seeing DMC animu shit in some Dragon Dogma videos i've seen.

Capcom's animu shit > From's animu shit


Most complex ER player combo (it's a canned animation):
giphy.webp


DD2 simplest combo:



Most exicting ER fight agaisnt a large enemy:
giphy.webp


Dullest DD2 large enemy showdown:

You still seem unable to crasp that your preferred style is neither objectively superior nor desirable in any way when it comes to FromSoft games.

Some of us don't care at all about "complex" combos. I explained many times that the game's complexity in FromSoft games is entirely on the other end of the equation.

You speak about Elden Ring's animu combos as being inferior to DD2 where as from my point of view i consider the combos that are actually there to be superflous and uneeded (and my eyes were already glazing over the DD2 combos you linked to). FromSoft combat simply doesn't revolve around that. Sekiro is a case in point.

And i wouldn't be surprised if this was intentional, given action games with combos etc have a long history behind them, so one can even see Demon Souls as being an attempt to go against the grain when it first came out.
 

DJOGamer PT

Arcane
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Complaining that FromSoft has milked the same combat system across several titles when that's pretty much how Japanese developers operate seems to be another case of "it's only bad when FromSoft does it".
That's not entirely correct
In fact, it is fairly common for long running japanese game franchises to heavily change their gameplay between entries
Even when that doesn't happen, these subsequent games usually strive to refine their predecessors systems
And in that regard, From has held the unique honor of refusing to fix objective issues in their combat gameplay with each new entry (some elements even getting progressively more egregious) and still getting massive success and worse praised as having excellent combat design

You still seem unable to crasp that your preferred style is neither objectively superior nor desirable in any way when it comes to FromSoft games.
But I've never claimed I would prefer that From games had DD or DMC combat
My view has always been that, From combat design is overall mediocre but this was acceptable in those first 3 Souls games, only because it held equal (if not less) importance than the "adventuring" and "immersive" aspects - but the more focus they place on the acion component, the more the combat's problems become self-evident and the more they bring down the experience

My preference would be that if indeed more action is the way From wants to go, then at least they should try reconsider what what works and what doesn't, enchance the former and discard the latter
But the fact that 7 games later their solution to patch these issues was essentially pouring oil onto the fire by doubling down on the retarded elements and people still applaud this, gives me little hope From will ever rethink their design and try to innovate any time soon

I explained many times that the game's complexity in FromSoft games is entirely on the other end of the equation.
And I've explained many times you why shouldn't have one without the other
You shouldn't have enemies with a high degree of complexity and leave the player with overly simplistic tools, because ultimately it isn't very engaging for the player to deal with (as his choices are almost binary) and it creates a very obvious imbalance in risk/reward - not to mention the whole "though but fair" design motto ends up being just bullshit

Besides, From's mechanical design regarding enemies isn't anything special

from my point of view i consider the combos that are actually there to be superflous and uneeded (and my eyes were already glazing over the DD2 combos you linked to)
Redundant is the last thing DD2 combat moves are
A fact which can be observed in those videos, particularly the cyclops one

And while their combat systems can't really be objectively compared, it still can be easily argued that DD2 "craftmanship" regarding it's combat is superior to ER
After all, game design is fundamentally about meaningful interactivity/reactivity
The fact DD2 action design manages to possess far more distinct yet consequential combat choices than ER, proves just that

And i wouldn't be surprised if this was intentional, given action games with combos etc have a long history behind them, so one can even see Demon Souls as being an attempt to go against the grain when it first came out.
I don't think so
From didn't expand DeS combat because - 1) they hadn't that many resources for the project ; 2) the game really didn't need it

If it was however, then it would be a simple case of taking a retarded stance just for the sake of contrarianism...
 

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