From Software Elden Ring - From Software's new game with writing by GRRM

[Lyric Suite]

See, when Dragon Dogma does jank it's just "charming".

Souls jank was also charming. 15 years ago.

I'm talking about Dragon Dogma now:

https://www.thegamer.com/dragons-dogma-2-gameplay-charm-jank-glitches/

It's only bad when FromSoft does it.

 

[Lyric Suite]

Oh yeah, we were all "fooled" into thinking the game was good (literally telling us not to believe our lying eyes), says random youtuber making a two hour long video nobody serious is gonna watch.

 

[Hell Swarm]

Everyone : Lets discuss the merits and flaws of Elden Ring and From's history of not fixing jank.
Lyric : FUCK YOU GAME JOURNO! YOU SAY THINGS I DON'T LIKE. THIS IS WHAT YOU ALL THINK TOO! AND YOU'RE WRONG WRONG WONG.
Everyone : What is wrong with this retard and why does he keep posting here?

Every single time.

 

[Lyric Suite]

No one has said From has to be perfect or that others games don't have flaws.

Yes he did.

He made the claim that FromSoft combat is "mediocre" and then delineated his reasons: jank. The only logical conclusion from this is that he believes the games that AREN'T mediocre don't have any jank or flaws of any kind.

 

[Odoryuk]

Everyone : Lets discuss the merits and flaws of Elden Ring and From's history of not fixing jank.
Lyric : FUCK YOU GAME JOURNO! YOU SAY THINGS I DON'T LIKE. THIS IS WHAT YOU ALL THINK TOO! AND YOU'RE WRONG WRONG WONG.
Everyone : What is wrong with this retard and why does he keep posting here?

Every single time.

If everyone thought that problems with the camera ruins their games, they'de be bankrupt after Demon's Souls release in 2009.

 

[Multidirectional]

Oh yeah, we were all "fooled" into thinking the game was good (literally telling us not to believe our lying eyes), says random youtuber making a two hour long video nobody serious is gonna watch.

I watched first few minutes of it and the guy does come off as absolute retard. He started off hating Dark Souls 1, then eventually played Dark Souls 3 which he loved (lol), then came back to first game and loved it but eventually still ended up convincing himself that game is shit because of lore reasons, apparently placement of monsters in the world make no sense hurr durr. Anyone who prefers third game to first is an imbecile not to be taken seriously. Same as someone who hates first game because of some lore crap. I can only assume retardation continues throughout the rest of video.

 

[Lyric Suite]

Oh yeah, we were all "fooled" into thinking the game was good (literally telling us not to believe our lying eyes), says random youtuber making a two hour long video nobody serious is gonna watch.

I watched first few minutes of it and the guy does come off as absolute retard. He started off hating Dark Souls 1, then eventually played Dark Souls 3 which he loved (lol), then came back to first game and loved it but eventually still ended up convincing himself that game is shit because of lore reasons, apparently placement of monsters in the world makes no sense hurr durr. Anyone who prefers third game to first is an imbecile not to be taken seriously. Same as someone who hates first game because of some lore crap. I can only assume retardation continues throughout the rest of video.

The nonsensical clickbait title alone is enough.

How does a game "fool" you into thinking you are enjoying it?

He could have said something like "Dark Souls isn't as good as you think", but the game itself tricking you into believing you are having a good time? How the hell does that work?

 

[Odoryuk]

but the game itself tricking you into believing you are having a good time? How the hell does that work?

Do you love the game I don't like? Then it merely tricksy you into loving it, it's simple

 

[Anonona]

It's only bad when FromSoft does it.

DD2's combat changes were so divisives it pretty much fragmented the comunity in two, to the point people worry that DD is over. To give you an example, Nihil0, a respected YouTuber and DD1 autist just released a video shitting all over DD2. And DD1 was critized when it released, with many players hoping for Capcom to fix issues with DD2, which they failed.

When MH World was first released, a sizable amount of veterans hated the shit out of it for the changes. And the when MH Rise released, it was hated by both veteran and World players.

Even today, there are people that prefer DMC 3 combat over 4 and 5. Almost every franchise of action games have numerous opinions and are analysed in scrutuny, to an autistic degree.

So no, Souls isn't free of criticism. If anything, issues that would have bean teared apart in any other franchise were forgiven easily game after game. Stop playing the victim and linking a fucking journo to try and defeat your strawman, is pathetic.

 

[Lyric Suite]

It's only bad when FromSoft does it.

DD2's combat changes were so divisives it pretty much fragmented the comunity in two, to the point people worry that DD is over. To give you an example, Nihil0, a respected YouTuber and DD1 autist just released a video shitting all over DD2. And DD1 was critized when it released, with many players hoping for Capcom to fix issues with DD2, which they failed.

When MH World was first released, a sizable amount of veterans hated the shit out of it for the changes. And the when MH Rise released, it was hated by both veteran and World players.

Even today, there are people tham prefer DMC 3 combat over 4 and 5. Almost every franchise of action games has numerous opiniones and are analyse in scrutuny, to an autistic degree.

So no, Souls isn't free of criticism. If anything, issues that would have bean teared apart in any other franchise were forgiven easily game after game. Stop playing the victim and linking a fucking journo to try and defeat your strawman, is pathetic.

I was talking about the Codex, and i explained what i believe is the reasoning: underdog syndrome.

It's a common phenomena in any fandom, especially after a long time. You start by thinking Dark Souls is the greatest thing since sliced bread. Over time the hype begins to cool a bit. After a while you start to get bored and you begin to champion other games, often those you may percieve as having been unjustly neglected. But Dark Souls is still popular as ever and now you begin to get adversarial, claiming those ungerdogs were totally better all along. The final stage is to believe Dark Souls was actually total, irredimable shit.

Having encountered this phenomena many years ago when i was into classical music, i am now not only immunized against this but i feel like i have to actively resist it when it comes out of others.

 

[Odoryuk]

It's only bad when FromSoft does it.

DD2's combat changes were so divisives it pretty much fragmented the comunity in two, to the point people worry that DD is over. To give you an example, Nihil0, a respected YouTuber and DD1 autist just released a video shitting all over DD2. And DD1 was critized when it released, with many players hoping for Capcom to fix issues with DD2, which they failed.

When MH World was first released, a sizable amount of veterans hated the shit out of it for the changes. And the when MH Rise released, it was hated by both veteran and World players.

Even today, there are people that prefer DMC 3 combat over 4 and 5. Almost every franchise of action games have numerous opinions and are analysed in scrutuny, to an autistic degree.

So no, Souls isn't free of criticism. If anything, issues that would have bean teared apart in any other franchise were forgiven easily game after game. Stop playing the victim and linking a fucking journo to try and defeat your strawman, is pathetic.

You're kinda implying that all FS fans praise all FS games and gleefully accept both stagnation and changes alike, which is laughable if you actually had a misfortune to participate in most of their major fandoms

 

[Nathir]

I found this video quite interesting. It's about Dark souls 1 but it applies to all From games.

"The lore doesn't make sense because it's the video game version of Magic the gathering" is an interesting concept.

As if I'm watching a 2 hours long video lmfao.

Based on thumbnail I rated shit.

 

[Anonona]

was talking about the Codex

I invite you to take a look at DD2 and MH threads and see how many people both defended and criticed the aferomentioned games. Even those that liked the game are Quick to point out flaws, including myself

You're kinda implying that all FS fans praise all FS games and gleefully accept both stagnation and changes alike, which is laughable if you actually had a misfortune to participate in most of their major fandoms

Actually no, I said it isnt free of criticism. I think the years of disscussion about DS2 is enough to write a fucking book, let alone DS3. But arguing thay the codex now suddenly hate ER because is popular is ludricous. Which is even more dumb as I think the opposite is the true. If anything most of tye criticism also comes from people that liked the game. He can correct me if Im wrong, but even Hellswarm, as critical as he is of From actually do like the game (sorry in advance if Im wrong). Hell, I like ER a lot, played it many times through and experimented with the combat system.

 

[Hell Swarm]

I watched first few minutes of it and the guy does come off as absolute retard. He started off hating Dark Souls 1, then eventually played Dark Souls 3 which he loved (lol), then came back to first game and loved it but eventually still ended up convincing himself that game is shit because of lore reasons, apparently placement of monsters in the world makes no sense hurr durr. Anyone who prefers third game to first is an imbecile not to be taken seriously. Same as someone who hates first game because of some lore crap. I can only assume retardation continues throughout the rest of video.

I've never met a souls player who didn't bounce off the series at least once. I bounced off Demon's souls when I first tried it and put it down for a while without even finishing 1-1. A friend told me to give it another go and it clicked after I beat a couple of levels. It's a really common story for players to bounce off games like these, Stalker and Rain world. Some of the best games are an acquired taste which is fine.

I don't agree with a lot of what he said. He's a Dark souls 3 player going backwards when I'm a Demon's souls player going forward. We have very conflicting views of the series but I think his opinions are interesting (if wrong).

Hell, like ER a lot, played it many times through and experimented with the combat system. Wont stop me from pointng put flaws

Exactly. Perfectly serviceable is still serviceable. But we want to discuss how things should have improved and how the game could be better. And if mods are anything to go by many people agree and are looking for these newer experiences. The people talking about the flaws have more time in the games and have a higher skill level. They don't just cheese the bosses to make youtube videos no one watches.

 

[Lyric Suite]

Lmao, look at Hell Swarm trying to pretend he was the voice of reason all along after shitting incessantly on the game for the past 150 pages.

 

[Lyric Suite]

I actually had half a mind of starting DD1 now that i finished Bioshock but i better wait until i'm done with my current job. I don't want to repeat the mistake i did with the Elden Ring DLC where i dragged it for two months just because i could only play three days out of a week and sometimes barely even that.

Would playing it on your Steam Deck give you more time? It runs great on it.

Nah, the screen is too small for something like that. I'd rather wait. This is only going to last until the end of October anyway so it won't be long.

 

[DJOGamer PT]

Is there even a reason to reply to Lyric ever? You know he won't listen.

At this point, it does feel like arguing with a Bethesda fanboy

But he keeps twisting my arguments and making wild assumptions of my stances
So in the end I feel like I have to jump back into the fray, defend myself and make my position more obvious (if that is even possible anymore...)

For instance:

That has nothing whatsoever to do with the combat system

You say you don't understand the criticism of From's combat
People explain the issues they have
People repeatedly, consistently, logically explain these issues - and after some analysis one can see that many of the issues all these posters have share common factors
Your response?
You close your ears and go "Ah la la la la la. Seems like your problem bro, just adapt. Ah la la la la la. That's just liek ur opinion bro. Ah la la la la la. You just don't get From's genius bro."
People leave, because they got tired of your shtick and once again you proclaim "I just don't get what's the problem with From's combat"
Rinse and repeat for the last 8 years

Grasping at straws already on your very first rebuttal.

Am I?
I mean...

And mind, you do this even at the times we are not discussing abstract design components, but actual concrete technical gameplay flaws - which are downright embarassing after 10+ years of making these games:
- enemy attacks still go through walls, while player attacks bounce off
- input buffering is still overzealous, a minor annoyance on the pre-Bloodborne games but completely inexcusable now that combat runs on turbo mode
- critical hits still don't work consistently on slopes
- lock-on still breaks when bosses do their spazz attacks, even though there's nothing else in the room to lock-on to
- enemy pathfinding is still hilariously wonky, leading to either exploitable or unpredictable movement paterns

Where is your rebuttal of this?
Oh that's right:

Even when you bother to actually engage in the discussion, you mostly just reply to the low hanging fruit and ignore the strong arguments...

It's also another case of "it's only bad when FromSoft does it".

It's another case of fanboy equates fair criticism with "your game has 1 micro-issue and therefore it's shit and you're a pleb for liking it"
I would would critize any game for presenting the same issues

This kind of attitude usually stems when one is afflicted by underdog syndrome, which is an emotional and not an objective reponse. FromSoft is "mainstream" now, that means everything bad they do is unforgivable where as those other games can be exscused by virtue of being "unfairly" overlooked

The fucking irony
On this website and coming from you of all posters

Not to mention I haven't been the one who has constantly been arguing in bad faith and making strawmans every chance I get

Even within FromSoft itself you can see this attitude when it comes to Dark Souls 2, the black sheep of the series.

An unfairly accrued reputation based on a unfortunately botched development cycle and criticism of the game's design that for the most part doesn't hold true under scrutiny (and the flaws that warrant consideration are usually ignored by its detractors, also in part because it would force them to recognize they exist subsequent games)

it's also worth pointing out a lot of this animosity against them didn't exist when FromSoft were themselves percieved to be the underdog.

Because when From was the "underdog", their games still didn't the emphasize combat to the detriment of the other components and also the overall style of the gameplay lessened the combat's flaws to annoyances and not severe presistent issues
And even back in DS2 days we had posters here annoyed that their combat was starting to stagnate and the technical faults I listed above were still present despite the game running on a new engine
But now it's been nearly 10 years since Bloodborne and its shift in combat sensibilities, yet with every new game From has either ignored its shortcomings or doubled down on them

Running cover and mounting a strawman in the same argument.

No, you weren't making any "humourous" statement

This is getting tiresome
You might not have a sense of humor, but don't fault me for your inability perceive humor

That shitpost was clearly made in a very popular meme format
And the point of the post was first and foremost the fact that I find Capcom's anime wackiness cooler than From's anime wackiness - this should really be obvious to anyone that can read, given the fact I started the post with the comparasion "Capcom anime > From anime"

Furthermore, and I am really repeating myself here, it's hidden motive was poking fun at the fact you repeatedly proclaim to be turned off by such frivolous weeb shennanings, yet you apparently have no such problems when From games are being just as over-the-top (if not more)

Thirdly,

you were specifically making a point about combos in ER not being anywhere near as complex as even the simplest combos in DD2

in that first comparasion, I was specially making a point about combos in ER not being anywhere near as impressive as combos in DD2 - because despite being more a visually flashy and complex movement (also therefore more animu, but I know you don't like such things ), at the end of the day it was still a pre-defined move which was simple to perform as even the most basic of attacks ; while that DD2 combo despite being a simple sucession of simple moves, it actually required mastery from the player's part and due to the game's nature also ends up as an unique moment that may not again be replicated even 100 hours down the line (as such, imo it ends up being far cooler)

Second, i don't recall being particularly appreciative of this kind of stuff when found in Souls.

DS3, Sekiro and ER are overall far more shounen anime than anything found on DD
Shit, Godrick's fight alone is more chaotic and flashy than Credo (the most hectic boss in DMC4) despite the latter's more gaudy appearance

Which is a completely irrelevant point to make, because in ER, "complex combat moves" aren't a thing.

That ER flying kick gif I posted was a multi-hit attack that also completely changes the character's positioning while active
It might not be a complex move to execute, but mechanically I would say it qualifies as a "complex combat move"

It's not what the combat is about.

Agreed
As it stands From's combat isn't about challenging the player with mechanically interesting choices
It's about playing Guitar Hero: Prepare to Roll Edition

You have a preference for a specific kind of combat games which FromSoft always seemed to actively want to stay clear of.

You're right
From seems to be actively trying to avoid compelling action combat design

Or maybe they can just keep doing their own thing which is what set them apart originally in the first place.

Of course they're going to keep doing their own thing
It's brought them nothing but success
It has also brought them stagnation
And that's exactely the opposite of what set them apart in the first place - the willingness to be unconventional - which they no longer are

I do have some familiarity with fighting games ...

With that said, i think i know enough about how those games work ...

Yeah I'm going to call bullshit on that Mr. "What the hell even is tracking?"

you seem to be making the case your preference has priority based on this general idea of what a "melee action combat" game ought to be, citing this vast gaming tradition with all it's accumulated knowledge in terms of mechanics and gameplay styles.

And once again you've given me reason:

Funny thing here is
If I, or anyone else, were to invert the script and use this very reasoning to defend such bad game design in a genre you are particularly familiar and fond of, you would be popping a vein right now and calling that poster a complete retard

I don't want them to turn into spazzy action fests, with "complex" combos, fast reaction times, flashy move sets and all the res

They already did and you liked it and asked for seconds

Also, once again you go for the low hanging fruit
I mean, I recall making a thread where I tried to explain what the general principle of this tradition was all about - even made a slapdash comparasion to chess
Never once in it did I state or even imply, in that thread or any where else, that turbo speed and combocrafting where the pinnacle of the "tradition"
Shit, in my post you're here quoting I even suggested From could look into a game whose combat is even slower paced and more methodical than DeS and DS1 are - Bushido Blade (which as expected, you completely ignored)
And yet all you can think of everytime I talk about "melee action games"
Another sign that you really don't know much about the topic and despite that you keep making absurd conclusions

The pedigree you are alluding to holds no interest for many of us because we never saw FromSoft has being part of that world.

And that's a failure on your part
Because the action component is very clearly is part of that world

The fact Dark Souls shares its origins with an attempted Ultimate Underworld clone shows that we are dealing with something that isn't exactly just your average "melee action game"

Ultima Underworld is not a 3rd person Hack 'n' Slash
And from what I remember UU also isn't even half as focused in combat as DeS was

The second FromSoft veers in that direction is likely going to be moment when i stop playing their games.

Doubtful

It should be obvious if you have eyes to see. If you can't see it, i suspect it's because you are actually a bit blind as to the real complexity in FromSoft games ...

I'm gonna file this one under your catchphrases, as per already expected

In terms of how enemy move, their attack patterns etc, i just find FromSoft games to be smarter than their competition, and cleverness is not something that can easily be defined like quantity can ... it's less easy to define why bosses in Sekiro are a lot more clever than those in Nioh in their design and attack patterns.

I could very easily describe you why Credo is an excellent boss fight
It's only hard if you don't know what you're talking about

Honestly, why keep this up?
At this point we all know for you these things boil down to "thing I like = good. thing I don't like = bad"
Just be forthright man

He made the claim that FromSoft combat is "mediocre" and then delineated his reasons: jank.

Yeah... this does it
On this matter, talking to you is like talking to an overly verbose brat

Doesn't matter how many times I say it, how many different ways I try to frame it, how much more transparent I try to make it
You simply refuse to consider opinions opposite to your own
And what's more insulting is you clearly can't even be bothered to extend back the courtesy of properly reading what's written

You've fully degenerated into a fanboy
Congratulations

 

[Hell Swarm]

Lmao, look at Hell Swarm trying to pretend he was the voice of reason all along after shitting incessantly on the game for the past 150 pages.

Have you not realized the entire thread is shitting on you Lyric and has been for months now. You're simply wrong and too emotional to realize it. I am the voice of reason and I am right when you're a faggot over and over.

Don't worry about playing games on the Steam deck. We know you don't actually play games and no one cares about your opinions any way.

At this point, it does feel like arguing with a Bethesda fanboy

I have been considering asking if the admins could add a From drone tag like the Bethestard one. Lyric has more than earned the tag and it would be nice if his posts came with a warning.

People leave, because they got tired of your shtick and once again you proclaim "I just don't get what's the problem with From's combat"
Rinse and repeat for the last 8 years

He literally kills the thread repeatedly. No one wants to discuss anything about ER because he shits up the thread with pages of unreadable garbage. Has he really been doing this for 8 years?

Also remember he's openly stated he doesn't play other action games and doesn't like action games. He's even refusing to play a game he keeps saying is worse than From games despite having the chance to. I don't even like DD, I tried it and thought it sucked but I gave it a serious try and had an opinion based on my experience not watching gifs.

 

[Lyric Suite]

DJOGamer PT , dude stop it with the multi-quote shit ain't no way i'm even gonna read all that.

 

[Hell Swarm]

You don't even read short posts people make. You don't play games and you don't read posts. Why are you here?

 

[Lyric Suite]

You say you don't understand the criticism of From's combat

Pointing out the jank is not a criticism of the combat system.

Jank is an unwanted consequence of quirks or errors in the design or programming that's not what the subject was about at all. Changing the goalpost like that make it look like you were unsure of your position all of a sudden.

When you claimed the combat was "mediocre", you were specifically addressing the system itself.

But now it's been nearly 10 years since Bloodborne and its shift in combat sensibilities

Hold on a second criminal scum, because i'm smelling some sleight of hand here.

It's not that there has been any actual shift in combat sensibilities, it's that you WANT such a shift to happen so you are now pretending said shift has been a fait accompli and FromSoft's unwillingness to follow in the direction you would prefer is supposed to be an actual failure on their part, where as it seems to me there has been no such shift and Bloodborne didn't signify any change at all in the direction of their games towards a more twich-like experience.

It's not that they "failed" to follow up from Blodborne, it's that they didn't want to. FromSoft doesn't seem to share your belief in the inevitability of the direction their games were meant to take after Bloodborne. In many ways, Elden Ring was actually an attempt to return to form after Dark Souls 3, which came out a bit compromised from sharing so much code with Bloodborne (for instance, the completely fucked poise system).

Agreed
As it stands From's combat isn't about challenging the player with mechanically interesting choices
It's about playing Guitar Hero: Prepare to Roll Edition

And now we come to the actual crux of the issue (again).

You still don't seem to understand this question of "choices" is your own unique fixiation stemming from what is nothing more than a mere personal preference. Your "critcism" is no criticism at all, it is a mere affirmation of your own personal taste.

I personally do not care about "choices". I care about clever design, which FromSoft has in spades, something which apparently you seem to be completely blind to. Like i said, i found Sekiro for instance to be a lot more clever than Nioh, at least in terms of how bosses moved and operated in general. Now i'm sure you gonna tell me i played the game wrong by failing to take advantage to all the "choices" offered by the combat system. Perhaps that is the case, and when i decide to try Nioh 2 i'll make an effort to try to learn to play the game the "proper way", but the fact still remains that there are aspects that were just flat out better in Sekiro.

In fact, the reason you are usually forced to retry a boss over and over in FromSoft games has nothing to do with having to "memorize" the patterns, not as such. The issue is that the pattern is so wayward, so out of the left field that you HAVE to memorize it in order to get through it. If the design was more simplistic, no memorization would be necessary because the patterns and attacks would be easily readable on the spot.

As for this Guitar Hero shit, the comparison is obviously flawed because there are no fixed patterns in FromSoft games. All the attacks are decoupled from any fixed sequence it would be like playing Guitar Hero but the songs always change up on the fly (though the single elements making up the composites are always the same, so you can learn those at least).

 

[Hell Swarm]

"You're wrong if you think enemies shouldn't be able to attack you through walls""

"From bosses should be boring puzzles with spastic animations because it's bad if the player can read what a boss is doing and react to it naturally."

Sped.

 

[Lyric Suite]

"From bosses should be boring puzzles with spastic animations because it's bad if the player can read what a boss is doing and react to it naturally."

"Only the kind of complexity i like should be allowed".

This entire argument in a nutshell.

Notice how you don't see me go on the other forums to try to dictate my preferences there. When i played Nioh i didn't go on any screeds at how much it sucks compared to Dark Souls. I just reported my impressions of the game and posted a few videos to show where i was at. Seems i'm the one who is a bit more open minded here.

 

[Hell Swarm]

Oh lyric. You are the greatest kind of retard. You think you're the smartest guy on the room when everyone else has to put padding on the door handles so you don't run head first into them as hard as you can.

 

[DJOGamer PT]

You say you don't understand the criticism of From's combat

Pointing out the jank is not a criticism of the combat system.

1. it is, if said jank is directly related to the combat system and actively undermines it
2. if you're going to strawman my arguments (be it either intentional or not), then please do us both a favor and don't reply - spare yourself of the embarrassment and me having to deal with this bullshit
3. own up to what you say:

Personally, i don't see what the issue is with the combat system up to and including Elden Ring. Never understood any of the criticisms, never had a problem adjusting to those so called "problems".

>inb4, "problems" here obviously refers to jank
No it did not
No one even implied jank before this post of yours

Hold on a second criminal scum, because i'm smelling some sleight of hand here.

Yes
Yours:

It's not that there has been any actual shift in combat sensibilities, it's that you WANT such a shift

Disingenuous prick

Just because you repeat the same lies over and over and over again, does not make them true

And now we come to the actual crux of the issue (again).

You still don't seem to understand this question of "choices" is your own unique fixiation

The crux of the issue is that you don't seem to fundamentally understand that "choice" is the bedrock of game design
Correction half, the other half is "challenge" - great game design being the harmonious interplay between these 2 essences

I personally do not care about "choices".

And there it is ladies and gentlemen

Since you're not very good at perceiving irony, I'll explain it for you:
- you are currently advocating for the radical removal of meaningful gameplay choices, in a website dedicated to a game genre whose ultimate obsession is meaningful gameplay choices...

What are you even doing here?