Yeah no shit
Everytime someone points the issues out, you do your best 3 wise monkeys impersonation
By this point "I never had any problems with it" and "datz just liek ur opinion man" are your catchphrases
Even when you bother to actually engage in the discussion, you mostly just reply to the low hanging fruit and ignore the strong arguments...
And mind, you do this even at the times we are not discussing abstract design components, but actual concrete technical gameplay flaws - which are downright embarassing after 10+ years of making these games:
- enemy attacks still go through walls, while player attacks bounce off
- input buffering is still overzealous, a minor annoyance on the pre-Bloodborne games but completely inexcusable now that combat runs on turbo mode
- critical hits still don't work consistently on slopes
- lock-on still breaks when bosses do their spazz attacks, even though there's nothing else in the room to lock-on to
- enemy pathfinding is still hilariously wonky, leading to either exploitable or unpredictable movement paterns
That has nothing whatsoever to do with the combat system and a reply like this just undermines your position given your real argument is that FromSoft combat's isn't like those others games you like. Grasping at straws already on your very first rebuttal.
It's also another case of "it's only bad when FromSoft does it". See, when Dragon Dogma does jank it's just "charming". Monster Hunter has often poor AI when chasing bosses around? Well, that's because the game focuses on fun bro! Bosses in Nioh have wonky hit boxes where you can get hit on a rebound even if you dodged the attack? No problem bro, just adapt.
But when it comes to FromSoft, it's either absolute perfection or the game system is just terrible and mediocre. This kind of attitude usually stems when one is afflicted by underdog syndrome, which is an emotional and not an objective reponse. FromSoft is "mainstream" now, that means everything bad they do is unforgivable where as those other games can be exscused by virtue of being "unfairly" overlooked (despite being totally better in every which way possible! This isn't totally fanboy hyperbole though). Even within FromSoft itself you can see this attitude when it comes to Dark Souls 2, the black sheep of the series.
Personally, i never cared about this attitude and it's also worth pointing out a lot of this animosity against them didn't exist when FromSoft were themselves percieved to be the underdog.
For one, that was a humurous post and my statement was simply that Capcom's anime goofiness is cooler than From's anime goofiness - and like I've previously said, I was also poking fun at the fact you repeatedly proclaim to be turned off by such frivolous weeb shennanings, yet you apparently have no such problems when From games are being just as over-the-top (if not more) and sometimes you even expressed appreciation at such displays
Running cover and mounting a strawman in the same argument.
No, you weren't making any "humourous" statement about the goofiness of those combos, you were specifically making a point about combos in ER not being anywhere near as complex as even the simplest combos in DD2, to which i responded ER does not revolve around that kind of stuff so you cannot rely on that metric to show that DD2's combat is totally superior to Elden Ring's combat. It's the very definition of comparing apples to oranges.
Second, i don't recall being particularly appreciative of this kind of stuff when found in Souls. My disdain for animu is one of the main reasons i latched on to this company in the first place, since in Souls animu is relatively subdued compared to stuff like DMC etc. It also seems to be more subdued in Dragon Dogma which is why out of all the games mentioned in those conversations, DMC, Monter Hunter etc DD is actually the one that has my attention the most.
Secondly, what that first comparison showed is that in ER, complex combat moves are very simple to perform
Which is a completely irrelevant point to make, because in ER, "complex combat moves" aren't a thing. It's not what the combat is about. I know that's what you WANT it to be about, but that brings us back to the root of this conversation once again. You have a preference for a specific kind of combat games which FromSoft always seemed to actively want to stay clear of.
Now are you asking me, if I would like if From were to learn anything from these games regarding mechanics, weapons and enemy design? Yes I would. Because they seem dead set on focusing on the action component and so they might as well look here for cool ideas for their own system - but really it doesn't even have Itsuno's games, there are plenty of other great 3D fighters ripe with lessons to learn and ideas to play with (want From to go back to the slower, more methodical combat where even 1 regular oponent can fuck you up? tell them to look into Bushido Blade)
Or maybe they can just keep doing their own thing which is what set them apart originally in the first place. Besides, i have a strong suspicion that if they DID start taking their cues from other games the usual suspects would just jump on the opportunity to screech how FromSoft have no creativity and can only steal from others.
See the thing is, my opinion is based not just on my observations but also those of hundreds other enthusiasts of this particular niche (melee action combat), it's based on gameplay ideas and applications of said ideas that been unceasingly tested and experimented on by said enthusiasts (both players and devs) since all the way back to early days of Street Fighter 2 (1987 if you're curious), ideas which turned into general concepts that can be found and in fact are the bedrock
every single one of the best figthing combat systems be 2D or 3D (
concepts which as I argued in this thread, From games have struggled with to put it midly) and ultimately it's based of my own experience after dozens of 3D fighters over the years (ranging all the way from insulting to blissful)
Your opinion is based primarly on your own arbitrary notion of "thing I like = good. thing I don't like = bad", plus an obvious lack of experience with combat systems outside From's mold and knowledge of even basic figthing design notions
I do have some familiarity with fighting games, anything that ever ended up on an arcade at least. It's the console era games i am completely cluless about because i never owned a console.
With that said, i think i know enough about how those games work to not want any of that in FromSoft games.
It seems we have now correctly identified what the argument is actually about, my preference versus your preference, and you seem to be making the case your preference has priority based on this general idea of what a "melee action combat" game ought to be, citing this vast gaming tradition with all it's accumulated knowledge in terms of mechanics and gameplay styles.
From my point of view, the fact Dark Souls ISN'T in fact part of this tradition is exactly why i liked it in the first place, which is why i don't want them to start imitating those games at all. I don't want them to turn into spazzy action fests, with "complex" combos, fast reaction times, flashy move sets and all the rest. I absolutely do not want them to take their cues either from Street Fighter or DMC. The pedigree you are alluding to holds no interest for many of us because we never saw FromSoft has being part of that world. And the fact they have increased the speed and complexity of bosses over the years isn't a justification to suddenly turn Souls into DMC and allow the player to spazz out like Dante, forever veering off what Souls was supposed to be about and turn the series as yet another DMC clone. The solutions FromSoft offers to compensate for the increase in boss spazziness (like the stance mechanic) are perfectly fine as they are and within the general philosophy of the series.
It's a bit like demanding that a series like Ace Combat gets turned into a vertical-scroller citing the long tradition of increasingly more sophisticated vertical shooters going from 1942 to Battle Garegga and DoDonPachi as a justificaiton when the whole point of Ace Combat was to be an arcade/sim hybrid. The fact Dark Souls shares its origins with an attempted Ultimate Underworld clone shows that we are dealing with something that isn't exactly just your average "melee action game" and can't just begin to cross over in that direction without instantly losing its distinctiveness and
raison d'etre (a melee action game that ISN'T an animu twich fest).
The second FromSoft veers in that direction is likely going to be moment when i stop playing their games. If i wanted DMC, i'd be playing DMC.
Except they literally did, as Sekiro's combat is poor rip-off of MGR main quirks
I tried Metal Gear Rising and i see no similarity whatsoever.
And you never explained why that is case
This was left up in the air just as another one of your "trust me bro, I'm right" moments
It should be obvious if you have eyes to see. If you can't see it, i suspect it's because you are actually a bit blind as to the real complexity in FromSoft games, which has nothing to do with having 100 different combos you can perform. That's why i cited Sekiro as a perfect counter example because that game is as far apart from your definition of complexity as it gets.
In terms of how enemy move, their attack patterns etc, i just find FromSoft games to be smarter than their competition, and cleverness is not something that can easily be defined like quantity can. It's easy to point out that in Nioh you have dozens of possible combinations of combos you can perform, it's less easy to define why bosses in Sekiro are a lot more clever than those in Nioh in their design and attack patterns.
But I know enough about it to know you really don't want to compare the complexity MonHun's boss AI with that of any game by From
They are not even on same galaxy
I was talking about the compexity of how they move, which appear to have been simplified to allow the player to do all the stuff you claim FromSoft should begin to imitate in their combat systems.
They are irrelevant because ER lacks the mechanics to make use of them
Which was part of the point - ER combat is mechanically shallow
Not it's that ER is mechanically something completely different.
I don't think so
From didn't expand DeS combat because - 1) they hadn't that many resources for the project ; 2) the game really didn't need it
Resources isn't the reason they didn't try to make a DMC clone that's a retarded argument.
This is your 3rd strike for reading comphrension
Where in that sentence did I say, or in any imply, that they tried to make a DMC clone?
Is your viewpoint really this narrow that you think that the statement "expanding DeS combat" = "making a DMC clone"?
Fair enough i now see i read that wrong. I'm not a big fan of multi-quoting wars and pyramid postings so my eyes started glazing over what you wrote by the time i got to the bottom of it lmao.
In fact i'm already boring of doing this.
