From Software Elden Ring - From Software's new game with writing by GRRM

[GentlemanCthulhu]

pay the slightest bit of attention.

I mean, I did play ER for 300 hours. Saw every ending, read every item description, and sure, there are numerous pieces of individual writing and lore tidbits everywhere, loosely connected together, but there is no coherent form to any of it. Every conclusion you drew in your post is just your interpretation of the events, and there is no final explanation of everything. Everything is fan theory assembled from the myriad lore lego pieces scattered here and there.

Besides that Souls games story is always focused on the very crux of their worldbuilding and metaphysics instead of being driven by other character motivations

I'd say Elden Ring is especially character-driven as far as its main plot goes.

 

[Odoryuk]

Every conclusion you drew in your post is just your interpretation of the events, and there is no final explanation of everything. Everything is fan theory assembled from the myriad lore lego pieces scattered here and there.

That's the best part. Using the information that the game gives you openly in order to tie everything together is very fun.
Surely, there will be people who want to push their own agenda and headcanons, but it's very easy to see if someone is doing some weird shit if they are not providing any sources from the game itself.

 

[GentlemanCthulhu]

That's the best part. Using the information that the game gives you openly in order to tie everything together is very fun.

The world building and lore in these games are not like a puzzle that you can assemble together to get a final clear picture of everything, it's more like a Lego set where you can build whatever you want with them. That's my entire point. Sure it can be fun, but there is no merit or value in all these lore theories, since it's more than likely that all of them are ultimately invalid.

 

[Odoryuk]

The world building and lore in these games are not like a puzzle that you can assemble together to get a final clear picture of everything

There are a lot of creations that are not clear on everything. Having enough mystery can be good. The fact that there's some unsolvable mysteries in their games doesn't mean that the devs didn't have the whole broad story before removing parts from them.

Sure it can be fun, but there is no merit or value in all these lore theories, since it's more than likely that all of them are ultimately invalid.

There's a lot of people who create such theories that are not backed by the games, and I don't like such approach, but it doesn't mean you can't try to solve the puzzle, even you have a lot of pieces lost. You just don't make shit up for those lost pieces, it's simple.

 

[GentlemanCthulhu]

Having enough mystery can be good.

I can actually agree with that, as I was writing my own post, I was thinking that, well I prefer the mystery to having a disappointing answer. Don't get me wrong, I really enjoyed elden ring and its mythos and world building. But I do think there is such a thing as going too far with the theories, especially if you get lost in the sauce and forget that most of it is conjecture.

There's a lot of people who create such theories that are not backed by the games, and I don't like such approach

Yeah I used to be a big VaatiyVidya enjoyer but i got really disenfranchised. He does that all the time, to the point that he hires voice actors to narrate his out-of-game content (some times beta files, or even fanfic), which really tricks you into thinking that stuff is really from the game itself. I hate having my perception of events warped by something like that. It's like a purposeless, in-game psy-op lol.

 

[SayMyName]

pay the slightest bit of attention.

I mean, I did play ER for 300 hours. Saw every ending, read every item description, and sure, there are numerous pieces of individual writing and lore tidbits everywhere, loosely connected together, but there is no coherent form to any of it. Every conclusion you drew in your post is just your interpretation of the events, and there is no final explanation of everything.

Nope, nothing of what I said is incorrect or not directly stated by the game. All of those are objective statements simply acknowledging what the game plainly states. Narratives built off individual writing and small bits of info that require deeper understanding have been a thing before Fromsoftware, Fromsoftware just used them in more popular media.
An interpretation would be claiming that Mariika gave Grace to Morgott only because he was conviniently keeping tarnished warriors away from the Erdtree and pushing them to Farum Azula, or that Marika's hammmer getting fractured is what stops Radagon from fixing the Ring, halting Marika and Radagons plan to reform into a Rebis with the Rune of Death and Life represented by the 2 halves, which is why Marika states that she plans on Radagon becoming a God.

That's the best part. Using the information that the game gives you openly in order to tie everything together is very fun.

The world building and lore in these games are not like a puzzle that you can assemble together to get a final clear picture of everything, it's more like a Lego set where you can build whatever you want with them. That's my entire point. Sure it can be fun, but there is no merit or value in all these lore theories, since it's more than likely that all of them are ultimately invalid.

If your theory is that people who pay attention and can tie a bigger picture together are just making shit up on the go as From throws a bunch of shit then you'd have no issue disproving their theories with any conflicting amount of evidence. The circlejerk around how From games have no story has been a consistent thing because their narrative method is rather unusual and the events of the games connected to philosophical themes that span across multiple games, but that doesn't mean you can't make a clear direct picture of hw the world works and timeline of events.
It is best shown by Elden Ring release when people thought Elden Ring was some Game of Thrones shit about Demigods fighting to access the Erdtree and Radahn fighting aliens because the outlandish metaphysics of the writing of Souls games is a foreign concept to people used to more mundane narratives.

Besides that Souls games story is always focused on the very crux of their worldbuilding and metaphysics instead of being driven by other character motivations

I'd say Elden Ring is especially character-driven as far as its main plot goes.

It isn't, the character journeys through the world based on a fake prophecy that is actually Marika's plan to cause a new Death of the Demigods and unseal Destined Death for her to obtain it. It's every bit as identical as the fake prophecy of the Chosen Undead and the cyclic linking of the Fire. As usual, the worldbuilding is the centerpiece of the narrative. In fact, this, far more than using item description which many RPGs also employ, is what prompts brainlets to claim the games have no story. The idea that worldbuilding in a game becomes almost archeology and that the narrative is not set i motion or going through stages with the pacing improsed by active characters is what really sets Souls games apart.

Yeah I used to be a big VaatiyVidya enjoyer

If you ever felt that Vaati was a legitimate lore channel, you weren't paying much attention to lore for any Souls game to begin with

 

[Odoryuk]

(some times beta files, or even fanfic), which really tricks you into thinking that stuff is really from the game itself. I hate having my perception of events warped by something like that. It's like a purposeless, in-game psy-op lol

Searching answers in cut content from old betas is a tricky subject. For example, Dark Souls 3 really changed a lot, even from the time when they were testing the game with close Network Test, so you can't use the information from those files to decipher the final game. But, for example, in Bloodborne (final boss spoilers) people were arguing if Flora is someone's name or not, and some decided that it is a name of the final boss, because a dude who worked on the game guide saw the earlier build were the game outright tells you that it is, indeed, her name. And, later, when the PS4 got hacked, people found the audio files that state this. And there's nothing contradicting that is is her name in the base game, so the fandom just assumed it is her name. Redgrave made a video on this subject just recently (but I actually never read the Paleblood Hunt (a very popular Bloodborne lore analysis which VaatiVidya took a lot from to the point where he was accused of plagiarism) so I can't say if he's the one who digs onto the game or just writes a glorified fanfic)

If you ever felt that Vaati was a legitimate lore channel, you weren't paying much attention to lore for any Souls game to begin with

Don't blame him, man's got a voice of an angel, I loved his work back in the days too

 

[GentlemanCthulhu]

nothing of what I said is incorrect or not directly stated by the game

Most of what you said is not directly stated by the game. At best they are implied.

From games have no story

For the record, that's not something that I said or believe in.

outlandish metaphysics of the writing of Souls games is a foreign concept to people used to more mundane narratives.

They're not that outlandish or unique. The concept of an extratrestial outer god for example is nothing new, even among FS games. Granted, it's all very interesting and the flavoring is very nice, but you're putting it on an unusually high pedestal. That existence is cyclical is basic tenet of some real world religions. That time and space can collapse on themselves is discussed in theoretical physics. A lot of the visual elements in FS games are borrowed and inspired by other media.

If you ever felt that Vaati was a legitimate lore channel, you weren't paying much attention to lore for any Souls game to begin with

And I think you are lost in the sauce.

 

[GentlemanCthulhu]

But, for example, in Bloodborne

Well sadly i'm not going to read this spoiler for now as i'm not yet done with bloodborne, so i can't comment here. My current opinion is that all info that's not in the final version of the game (eg. beta, accompanying comic books, etc.) should largely be disregarded. I might change my opinion later when I read the bit about the final boss at a later time though.

 

[SayMyName]

nothing of what I said is incorrect or not directly stated by the game

Most of what you said is not directly stated by the game.

Yes it is

I love how increasingly insane and deranged these lore theories have gotten over time, since the good old days of DS1/2. I used to schizopost about FromSoft lore just like everybody else, but honestly taking a step back from it all showed me just how much of it is nonsensical rambling and superimposition on part of the fans, rather than something you could objectively derive from the content of the games.

Nothing insane or deranged. All of this is in the game for anyone that wants to observe and pay the slightest bit of attention.

Gold is life force manifest, brought to the Lands Between by the Greater Will through the Elden Stars.
The Elden Ring is the metaphysical form the Elden Beast took after spreading the life force that brought Life, and created the concept of Order

• I, too, am a glintstone sorcerer. We study the stars, and examine the life therein. Are you familiar with our findings? Long ago, we began as stardust, born of a great rupture far across the skies. We, too, are children of the Greater Will. Is that not divine? Is that not sublime? ...and yet, none can fathom its implications, its utter brilliance! - Count Ymir
• It is said that long ago, the Greater Will sent a golden star bearing a beast into the Lands Between, which would later become the Elden Ring. - Elden Stars
• Thought to be the founding glintstone sorcery. The glimpse of the primeval current that the astrologer saw became real, and the stars' amber rained down on this land. - Founding Stars of Ruin
• The hat of Count Ymir, High Priest. The circular design at the top represents the Greater Will and its lightless abyss, imparting increased intelligence and arcane to the wearer. Though Count Ymir instructed Rellana in the sorcerous arts, he abandoned his allegiance to the moon.
  "It was merely the closest of the celestial bodies. Nothing more." - High Priest Hat
• Remembrance of the Elden Beast, hewn into the Erdtree. It was the vassal beast of the Greater Will and living incarnation of the concept of Order - Elden Remembrance
• Legendary sorcery devised by Lusat, primeval sorcerer. When Lusat glimpsed into the primeval current, he beheld the final moments of a great star cluster, and upon seeing it, he too was broken. - Stars of Ruin

It's clear that the Greater Will is the entity astrologers studied as Primordial Current, and life was brought by Amber Stars. Astrologers see the Greater Will as the Stars that brought their Comets in the Lands Between, Clerics worship its manifestation of Life that rained as object of Faith, but in both cases Gold is the divine life force that desended with the Elden Stars and brought Life force. The Greater Will is both the Stars, full of Life, and the lightless (lifeless) abyss they are in.

• A sword that none can pull from its scabbard of cracked stone. Relic of a lost civilization from a time long past, said to have served a ritual purpose at altars of light and darkness. - Stone-Sheated Sword
• Sword of darkness, pulled from its stone scabbard at an altar. From the quick of the root, wandering coils of darkness coalesce and release, their eddies and vortices giving form to the dark blade. - Sword of Darkness
• Sword of light, pulled from its stone scabbard at an altar. From the quick of the root, unswerving rays of light intersect and reflect to give the silver blade form. - Sword of Light
• "All that there is came from the One Great. Then came fractures, and births, and souls. But the Greater Will made a mistake. Torment, despair, affliction... every sin, every curse. Every one, born of the mistake. And so, what was borrowed must be returned. Melt it all away, with the yellow chaos flame. Until all is One again."

Light and Dark are in the most literal sense Life and Death, both created by the Greater Will as it divided the One Great, an eternal blend of nothingness/aether.

When Marika rose to power, she did so through the jar rituals of the Hornsent, she could draw power directly from Gold of the meat innards, through the sacrifices of the spirits of her own numen people.
This also causes Marika's gold to be tainted by Dark, because of the Death brought by those sacrifices.
This is why Marika creates the Scadutree, seeping with shadowy gold that bears no concept of Order to try to lock away all that is Dark and hide her sins and the origin of Marika's cursed Gold.
Like the Painted World of Ariamis, the land of Shadow is a place of seclusion permanently stuck in Death and the antithesis of Life, where Messmer and all that lacks grace is eternally and embraced by Flame that burns from Dark

• Scraps of flesh for filling great jars. Rancorous spirits cling to the pinkish-red, convulsing meat. This is what becomes of the condemned, who get sliced up and stuffed into jars to become saints instead. - Innard Meat
• Remembrance of the Scadutree Avatar, hewn into the Scadutree. The Scadutree is the shadow of the Erdtree. Born of dark notions that bear no sense of Order, that twist and bend its stock, rendering it brittle. - Remembrance of the Shadow Sunflower
• Those stripped of the Grace of Gold shall all meet death. In the embrace of Messmer's flame. - Messmer
• One of the incantations of the Golden Order fundamentalists. A gift of gratitude to the young Miquella from his father, Radagon. And yet, the young Miquella abandoned fundamentalism, for it could do nothing to treat Malenia's accursed rot. This was the beginning of unalloyed gold. - Radagon's Ring of Light
• Secret incantation of Queen Marika. Only the kindness of gold, without Order. Marika bathed the village of her home in gold, knowing full well that there was no one to heal. - Minor Erdtree

Miquella has the intent to cleanse Gold (thus "Unalloyed Gold") from Marika's original sin. Burning the sealing Tree, created exactly to lock away the shadow Marika hides in shame, restores a purified Light that he will wield as his ownj Life force in the Age of Compassion.

• A Great Rune relinquished by Miquella. Broken and bereft of its bounty, it retains naught but the power to resist charms. Miquella set off for the tower enshrouded by shadow, abandoning everything—his golden flesh, his blinding strength, even his fate. All in an effort to bury the original sin. To embrace the whole of it, and be reborn as a new god. - Miquella's Great Rune
• Ever-young Miquella saw things for what they were. He knew that his bloodline was tainted. His roots mired in madness. A tragedy if ever there was one. That he would feel compelled to renounce everything. When the blame... lay squarely with the mother. - Count Ymir
• The strength of Miquella upon his deific return, wielded as an incantation. Annihilates foes with a pillar of light. Miquella sought to accept all that was and would be, but found one that refused to be embraced. No wonder, as one god, and one king consort, is all the world needs. - Light of Miquella
• The circlet of light which adorned Miquella's head as he returned in divine aspect. It has begun to fade into nothingness. This circle was to be the very foundation upon which Miquella's age of compassion would be built, should it have ever come to pass. - Circlet of Light

It is very much clear and there's no interpretation that can ignore the game is simply stating fact, anyone who disagrees is in bad faith, ignorant of those elements or lacks the cognitive tools to piece them together.

 

[mediocrepoet]

The interesting thing about Souls lore is that it's always been presented as basically an archeological pursuit where you make observations and examine artifacts in order to learn about the past that you were never there to witness. As a result, there are better and worse interpretations, but also the possibility that you can be misled by the writings of people who came before you, whether or not they directly witnessed the events you're trying to make sense of (if you bother).

Also, like a real world historical pursuit, you can just decide to ignore it all and it doesn't change anything about the present moment.

 

[Ezekiel]

Opened it for the first time since July. Tried fighting Leonine Misbegotten again. Deleting it. I want a refund, but am 12 hours in with no progress anywhere, only the "Roundtable Hold" achievement unlocked. I hate all of you who enabled FromSoftware until they got to this point. Made such good games once. Not only do they suck now, but they've dragged a large part of the industry down with them.

 

[Vorark]

Elden Ring should be played for the excellent legacy dungeons (base game), their best work so far. Combat, bosses in particular, has unfortunately been downgraded into infinite stamina helicopter-tier since DS3. At least you can fight fire with fire in ER and cheese it hard. Not very satisfying but it's the price you pay to explore the dungeons.

Now if you enjoyed these games for combat alone and are not into super twitchy gameplay, then RIP indeed.

 

[SayMyName]

My brother in Christ, how the fuck are some people getting filtered by the most basic starter enemies

 

[Jinn]

Opened it for the first time since July. Tried fighting Leonine Misbegotten again. Deleting it. I want a refund, but am 12 hours in with no progress anywhere, only the "Roundtable Hold" achievement unlocked. I hate all of you who enabled FromSoftware until they got to this point. Made such good games once. Not only do they suck now, but they've dragged a large part of the industry down with them.

I guess this is where it needs to be pointed out that not every game should be made to cater to everyone, but Jesus dude, Leonine is probably one of the easiest bosses in the game, even if you b-lined her out of the gate. This isn't Fromsoft retardation at this point. It's just a complete unwillingness for you to adapt and grow as a player. You would definitely do well to just move on.

 

[Silverfish]

Tried fighting Leonine Misbegotten again.

Summon wolfpack, spam the halberd's charge weapon art.

 

[Yosharian]

Opened it for the first time since July. Tried fighting Leonine Misbegotten again. Deleting it. I want a refund, but am 12 hours in with no progress anywhere, only the "Roundtable Hold" achievement unlocked. I hate all of you who enabled FromSoftware until they got to this point. Made such good games once. Not only do they suck now, but they've dragged a large part of the industry down with them.

......what

This boss isn't even hard? I'm shit at Souls games and even I can kill this guy

 

[SayMyName]

Opened it for the first time since July. Tried fighting Leonine Misbegotten again. Deleting it. I want a refund, but am 12 hours in with no progress anywhere, only the "Roundtable Hold" achievement unlocked. I hate all of you who enabled FromSoftware until they got to this point. Made such good games once. Not only do they suck now, but they've dragged a large part of the industry down with them.

......what

This boss isn't even hard? I'm shit at Souls games and even I can kill this guy

 

[Odoryuk]

Remember the times when people thought Dark Souls 1 bosses were hard?
Now the same happens with Elden Ring.
And already there are a lot of footages of zoomers decimating the hardest bosses via spectacular moves with no problem.

Opened it for the first time since July. Tried fighting Leonine Misbegotten again. Deleting it. I want a refund, but am 12 hours in with no progress anywhere, only the "Roundtable Hold" achievement unlocked. I hate all of you who enabled FromSoftware until they got to this point. Made such good games once. Not only do they suck now, but they've dragged a large part of the industry down with them.

Dude, you pressed

on a perfectly valid advice. It's like people saw the meme about gitting gud, never using summons, never using fucking equipment and think that's the only valid way to play. What the fuck, people

 

[Yosharian]

Opened it for the first time since July. Tried fighting Leonine Misbegotten again. Deleting it. I want a refund, but am 12 hours in with no progress anywhere, only the "Roundtable Hold" achievement unlocked. I hate all of you who enabled FromSoftware until they got to this point. Made such good games once. Not only do they suck now, but they've dragged a large part of the industry down with them.

......what

This boss isn't even hard? I'm shit at Souls games and even I can kill this guy

Is this meant to shock me or something? Try fighting Malenia and then tell me this guy is hard. Like wow he swings his sword a bit! Jfc

 

[Talby]

Opened it for the first time since July. Tried fighting Leonine Misbegotten again. Deleting it. I want a refund, but am 12 hours in with no progress anywhere, only the "Roundtable Hold" achievement unlocked. I hate all of you who enabled FromSoftware until they got to this point. Made such good games once. Not only do they suck now, but they've dragged a large part of the industry down with them.

I can understand quitting to some of the late game bullshit fights, especially the duos, but Leonine Misbegotten? Really?