Incline Elminage Gothic (former Japan only dungeon crawler)

[Courtier]

Some high level monsters with 90-99% resist took me hours if not multiple sessions to contract, base 80% is a godsend compared to that!

Yeah the bottom of light caves was a brutal kick to the face. I also liked the menacing floor master that stalks you in the upper floors, and you have to fight him multiple times. You're getting to the late-maingame now. Remember that you can block breaths + level drain with cleric spells, and redirect enemy attacks to one character (this can be a summon) with Bifei. Also the invisibility spell Bulafei that prevents you from getting targeted is very useful in keeping people alive. For difficult encounters I made castings of Skorekh (speed) and Laskorek (slow) a habit.

Alchemy is undeniably the most useful spell school. Pomedoon even remains viable in the postgame. I think that its element is based on the character's breath element, which you can change with some items (!). Ores are only going to become more useful as the game goes on. Your Alchemist will need to smith *every single* piece of gear to keep your lads alive.

I really enjoy reading your adventures man, it is always great to see somebody man up and slowly make their way through this game. The more you sink your claws in the deeper it gets.

COMING UP

Soon you'll delve straight into the sanctum of all the horrors. I highly recommend you try contracting a floor master around this time. Beware the tiger centaurs and goat-headed demons!

Afterwards you can see plenty of Lovecraftian abominations, experience the joys of being teleported into solid rock, see the most bizarre dungeon full of cryptic messages I have ever seen, and finally fight Obi-Wan Kenobi & a lot of mad deities. The tower might take you longer than the entire playthrough up until then.

If needed you can level up quickly with Greater Demons (set combat speed to maximum and turn off animations, repeatedly cast Rapoolfei until you are almost immune to their spells, lower your own AC/silence them and raise their AC but leave them able to summon allies - buff until you can kill a row each turn, back row is most likely to summon) These demons have an equivalent in the second postgame dungeon, which are even better for experience. But expect to get frequently trashed no matter how many levels you have.

You can do it!!!

 

[Haplo]

Thank you very much for your kind words and valuable advice, Courtier!

I agree that 80% Summon Resist isn't that bad.... but it's still advisable to be 10+ levels above the target... unless one is happy with a chance that is less then 1 in a 100.
Discounting the "Clean Hit" improved chances, which happen once in a blue moon so far.

However I've tried and got lucky pretty quickly with a Bicorn. Or maybe unlucky, as now I'm torn. Turns out the Japanese Wiki was wrong (or the Google translation is inconsistent) and Bicorn actually does become a Brawler (usally displaed as "Toshi", but it says "Warrior" here) after a Spirit Pact. Basically like I had wished him to. Very good Turn Recovery for that portion of the game: 44 HP/Turn, reasonable status Recovery of 50%, Dark Immunity (300%), strong dark attack (200%) coupled with some mass death spells (Argeiss, Zefeifus) plus even an Alchemy spell. Status resistances aren't good, at 0 much worse then even the Nine-Eyes' Giant race resistances, except for the immunity to the nasty Petrify status.
I've had my eyes set on Tempest Efreet who has excellent 90-75% resistances across the board (except for sleep). And immunity to Water and Lightning. Plus 30 HP Turn Recovery. But as my multiclass Summoner is only level 15 now, I'd definitely need 11 more levels to have a decent shot at capturing this 90% Summon Resist monster. Could possibly be at the end on the main game by then. And no spells for the Efreet.
Then there is the pretty big, however double-sided advantage of the Bicorn. He has 20% Behead chance. Usually this would be great, but it could turn nasty while hunting for Clean Hits to support forming summon contracts (Tempest Efreet has 5% also, btw... suspect it could come into play more often then I'd wish for).

And I have just about reached "usable" status, reaching level 15 on my current Nine-Eyes Brawler (still dies a lot, along with the 16 level Dragonfly Ninja... at least I don't fear aging to the Nine-Eyes too much). I slightly dread starting over from level 1. Only other contender for final Brawler slot, apart for the Bicorn and Tempest Efreet (or maybe the current Nine-Eyes), seems to be the Minotaur Chieftain from Cave of the Ancients with 160+ Turn Recovery (!), Giant race resistances and not much else going for him. But that's post game territory. There are also Empusa and Hellmaster, but I rather like them less.

So, yeah, now I'm torn. Any recommendations or comments would be appreciated.

And I won't be capturing any Floor Masters anytime soon, as they start at level 24-26 I think, most seem close to level 40. So my level 15 Summoner would need to be minimum level 36 to catch the first one (well, 2 levels less for Nagu, but I'm not sure it's worth the effort)... Again, may end the main game by then. Post game... we shall see...

By the way, what is your opinion on the Mark of Ruin for later gameplay? I decided to test it and rolled my Nine-Eyes with this EX skill. Adds quite a bit of damage, but is also quite taxing (only 8 HP turn recovery enchanted) vs current HP pool of 100+ HP, so looses 10 HP from full health. Would be easier on the Bicorn with his 44 HP turn recovery... then again in the post game the HP's can exceed 1000 as I understand, so he'd be loosing over 100 per turn...
Is it too risky for the late game?

 

[Courtier]

You might be anywhere between Lv30-50 before beating the main game, so I think you've got plenty of space. I contracted Akabey (Guatella floormaster) around that time and he swings multiple times per turn with a very high chance of swallow counter when attacked. Similarly other floormasters have multiple dangerous attacks, good stats/resistances across the board and have ridiculous scaling with the Summoner's mastery ability. For monster *adventurers* however I have no idea, I just picked whoever looked cute

You'll be able to start making huge amounts of money soon which you can invest in training up new characters, but if you classchange a monster adventurer they will lose their innate abilities. So you will always have to start at Lv1 if you want to keep resistances and stuff (no chance to train on spirit contract), which in the postgame puts them tens if not hundreds of millions of XP behind the rest of your party. Of course levels come quick by then, but you'd have been better off keeping the same guys throughout the game. Resistances/recovery can be smithed, and you can unlock all (monster) portraits in the game in the Cave of the Ancients. Right now the exp difference won't be that much though (couple million) so you can experiment easier.

For info on Mark of Ruin I'll defer to aweigh:

Spoiler

- mark of ruin appears to increase your attack power PROPORTIONALLY to your level and your attributes. i leveled up the 'Newt fighter up to lv. 12 and he keeps hitting harder and harder with every level. he was dealing approx. 40-60 dmg with each of his two weapons; i have him dual-wielding a longsword and a short-sword. i can only imagine how crazy the damage can get with good gear and good enchantments. shit is craaaazy good.

yeah the HP loss is a pain but if you put mark of ruin on a high HP class like the fighter, with a high VIT race... like the 'Newt, or a dwarf, and craft HP regen on his gear you basically eliminate the downside of the EX-skill while benefitting from what i estimate to be a 40%-50% increase in melee damage output, and a VERY noticeable increase in his Breath damage. and yes, i know the breath is related to the amount of HP the 'Newt has, i took that into account. the increase in the breath damage is even bigger than in the melee attacks.

changed him to a mage, and tested his Balad fire spell damage versus another newborn 'Newt fighter also class changed to mage but WITHOUT mark of ruin and the verdict is final: it also increases the damage dealt from direct-damage spells, just like with the breath. it actually makes complete sense though because hand of kindness also affects healing done by potions and the like, not just healing spells. choosing Mark of Ruin on a brawler has to be the most insane DPS available, i'd bet on it.

 

[Haplo]

Thank you very much, Courtier.
I can see the Mark of Ruin is very potent. And it's nice that it also affect spells. Could make an interesting pick IF I ever capture and contract a Da Mag nuker (don't really have an open party slot though).

Aweigh, would you have any post-game experience with the Mark of Ruin? Did you have it on someone in your Ibag Tower team? Is it sustainable long-term? Currently my Brawler has it, but later on the HP pools (and consequently 10% losses) get far higher (say, loosing 150 HP per turn as opposed to current 10 HP per turn). The healing spells don't scale well either.
And I guess it may be even more dangerous to stay below full health in the post game.

 

[aweigh]

Haplo

i need to add to courtier's quote of my MoR testing that...

- yes, it increases its dmg output proportionally...


-...which means when that 'Newt or whatever is level 250 and grinding Divine Dragons in the Penthouse Suite of Ibag's Tower the MoR will fucking inflict TONS OF FKN DAMAGE, like 200-300. Sure, he/she will almost definitely have by then 1.5 k ~ 2k hit points but... in post-game (i.e. the Tower) fucking Stargazers like to pincushion a character 4-6 times in a row and guess what?

- motherfucking almost always leave the char with 100-200 hp, and then cue Mark of Ruin and cue alt + f4 because you KNOW the subsequent Rez spell will fail.

~

EDIT: it's also not a bad idea to stick MoR on a completely non-melee, non-front-row char like your party alchemist to increase their POMADOON dmg and since they PROBABLY (unless you're meta gaming the SHIT outta everybody's race/classes/etc) won't have 2k hit points like a fighter would the MoR dmg penalty at end of a turn is only like 25-50 hit points.

back-row meaning they'll rarely be targeted by enemies means they'll PROBABLY have the HP to spare for the end-of-turn MoR dmg penalty.

- However, if the aim is to maximize direct-dmg spells MoR is 1000% out-classed by the simple and elegant spirit contract coupled w/ rainbow charm / elemental charm of choice. However since Spirit contract only affects mage-class spells then my recommendation of MoR for boosted alchemist POMADOON dmg stands. Not saying it's the best combo ever but it's absolutely a viable offensive option for the party makeup.

- alternatively stick WAR RITUAL on the Alchemist and that shit boosts by 1.25x EVERYTHING that MoR boosts (melee attacks, direct-dmg spells, and 1 or 2 other misc. shit) except it does so for the whole party (with obvious consequence of the char who uses War ritual using up their own Turn when they use the skill itself).

- Need to test whether War ritual increases status-effect spell % of landing ... i doubt it, BUT! u never know!

the increased dmg output is insane tho, and now i would 100% recommend it but ONLY on a FIGHTER class character wielding the highest/best 2-handed weapon (ending up w/ the golden axe) for RIDICULOUS dmg i should screenshot that shit i've seen my fighter with MoR and a Golden Axe deal 2.5 k DAMAGE to Skillving.

:D

EDIT: other than war ritual, spirit contract, magic essence (increases % chance of mage-class spells to bypass enemy spell resistances, more on this later...) and, of course, good ole mark of ruin there is really only one ex-skill that is INDISUPUTABLY, INARGUABLY the all-around MVP skill that will ALWAYS be extremely helpful throughout entire game and when in doubt? Go for...

- Brace. NOTHING beats auto-reviving. Sure, post-game enemies are smart enough to "gang up" on a char thus killing the char, Brace activates and the char revives, and then dies again immediately the rest of the enemies atks but seriously... i simply cannot count the # of times Brace saved my ass (or just simply made a fight go from "problematic" to "steam-roll").

serioujsly, if in doubt: brace.

EDIT x2: Honorable mention goes to CHI WAVE ex-skill. It deals dmg calculated straight from the character's equipped WEAPONS (which means a 2h weapon will output an ever-so-slightly higher dmg output using CHI WAVE because the single die-roll of the weapon is better math-wise for the CHI WAVE dmg calculation).

Pros of chi wave:

- allows a char who uses it to target ANY row of the enemy. it is simply put an "infinite range" attack that will deal around (this is my own ballpark calculation based off my playing time) deal around 50% - 70% of the dmg that WOULD HAVE been dealt if the character attacked normally w/ his weapon(s). Why use it then? aside from the benefit of being able to have your Fighter/Lord/whatever be able to target in Round 1 of the encounter the 3rd Row asshole enemy who is going to literally FUCK YOU UP ur life in the next round (i.e. archer-type enemies w/ multiple attacks per turn hidden behind high-defense meat-shield enemies which make you rage when you can't target them w/ your S-range golden axe fighter...); aside from THAT the CHI WAVE also...

- ...deals NON-ATTRIBUTE / NON-ELEMENTAL PHYSICAL DMG. whats this shit mean? it means it doesn't matter how high (well, low...) the enemy's Armor Class is or their dmg modifiers (post-game enemies are always packing shit like "half-dmg modifier that reduces by 50% melee dmg dealt by Fighters/Mage/Cleric/etc", and combined w/ good defense (i.e. a low Armor Class), can render a melee attack very crap. In those situations one use of CHI WAVE will deal the aforementioned 50-60% dmg that the char's melee atk would deal on a "blank slate default enemy", NO EXCEPTIONS, and since usually these "high defense / dmg reduction crap" enemies don't have high HIT POINTS (almost always much less than 1k hp) then 1 chi wave blasts 'em to ashes.

CONS OF CHI WAVE:

- could be using BRACE instead which will always be good, and not just situationally good.
- could use SWALLOW KILLER instead which nullifies an enemy's ability to counter-attack / parry / parry-AND-ALSO-counter-attack your char's melee attack.
- could be using MoR and just dealing crazy dmg like a fucking bad ass living on the edge the knife's edge
- did i mention could be using motherfucking BRACE?

IT AUTO REVIVES U

 

[aweigh]

RIGHT, about Magic Essence:

- mid-game onwards magic essence loses a big chunk of its draw because while it absolutely and undeniable will CONSISTENTLY bypass the enemy spell resistance for whatever Mage-class spell the char w/ the skill is casting it DOES NOT, repeat DOES NOT mitigate in any way whatsoever the enemy's resistance to SPECIFIC elements or afflictions.

- this means that post-game enemies are usually packing 50 % and upwards (ibag's tower enemies come packing fucking 70% and upwards) resistances to SPECIFIC stuff: poison, sleep, beheading, etc. So your magic essence char might cast RAMISAMA in order to Rohypnol those Tower bitches and boom you'll see flash by the text RESISTANCES NULLIFIED! LOL! and then you'll see the text saying OOPS ENEMY HAS RETARDED % RESISTANCE TO SLEEP! BYEEE

see what i'm trying to get across? however if you study up every enemy that troubles you and write down their weaknesses (EVERY ENEMY HAS AT LEAST ONE AFFLICTION/ELEMENT WEAKNESS. TRUST ME. Starfish knows wtf they're doing); then as long as you know EXACTLY what spell to use on the enemy (i.e. one they have low specific resistance to) then yeah magic essence is godlike nullifies their absurd-ridiculously high spell resistance %'s like butter.

problem is sometimes their weakness is not a Mage-class spell, like say, Skillving is weak to confusion (he only has 30% vs. confusion and 70-90% vs. everything else) but... confusion is not a Mage-class spell, it's alchemy-class, and Essence only works for mage spells...

so there you go. BTW, did i mention BRACE auto revives when u die?

 

[aweigh]

Haplo

you can enchant away the race limitation on a weapon or armor (re: the spiral spear you found. the exact same thing happened to my female dwarf Valkyrie in my very 1st playthrough, btw, EXACT same shit).

the only thing that cannot be smithed away is changing what character CLASS a weapon or armor can be used by. That is the only thing that's sacred. Race, gender (male/female/hermaphrodite i.e. the ? mark gender), Alignment; you can also smith onto weapons Infinite Range although I don't really recommend it (it's hugely expensive in terms of Ores/points and you can achieve infinite range by casting one of the high-lvl alchemy spells-- there is also a helmet called the Winged Cap (which I believe drops in Hastrano among a few other places) which can be "used" in battle and it's use-effect is the alchemy spell i just mentioned that grants infinite range.

BTW, remember that "Breath" attacks from enemies (which you'll be starting to run into soon in the dungeon that comes after Hastrana: it's a green-lit cave that looks covered in moss)-- Breath attacks can be minimized/nullified by raising the Defense % on one of your pieces of Armor that corresponds to whatever element/attribute the breath flavor is... the most common are poison breath and fire breath, by FAR. Oh, also holy breath; in the end none of the breath enemies are that common, but having 40% and UPWARDS defense % on:

- fire
- ice
- lightning
- darkness
(holy is not necessary not many enemies attack w/ holy; i.e. the only holy-type attack spells are Elnam and the aforementioned holy breath)

so, yeah, having 40% and UP! on the elemental defense %'s will serve you well throughout the entire game. I recommend skipping the urge to raise the Mage/Cleric/Alchemy SCHOOLS' resistance % and instead of raising those concentrate SOLELY on making sure at least half of your party is rocking solid numbers on the elemental attribute defenses. Why? because post-game game enemies come packing magic essence and will nullify your Mage-school resistance anyway (unless it's 100%, i THINK, perhaps Courtier knows).

Mage-school spells that will annoy you and enrage you are: misama, ramisama, venom (high level poison dmg is super fucking annoying plus being poisoned opens you up to a free PURSUIT SWEEP attack from enemy Hunter-types...), stoma (petrify) and rastoma, and in the post-game those motherfucking single-target lightning spells will fuck you up, as well as Enterook Mistas (only way to reduce incoming Enterook Mista dmg is to have ALL of the elemental defenses high, if one of them is at 0% or something very low it'll do full dmg but if you have all elemental defense %'s at decent numbers then enemy Enterook Mistas will deal half or even less dmg).

EDIT: However do raise Alchemy-school resistance % because magic essence skill does NOT affect alchemy or cleric resistances, only Mage-school resistances and Alchemy status affliction spells will give you more party wipes than any other thing in the entire fucking game.

there is nothing like the glorious spectacle of your ninja getting charmed (Pinto/Rapinto spells) and instantly beheading 2 of your party members because you just had to fucking make the ninja dual wield didn't you ! it's like the CPU senses when your party ninja gets charmed and immediately activates the PRO ACTION REPLAY CODE to give him 1000% behead.

EDIT: Oh, and Haplo, something I learned regarding how to best spread weapons around after lots of analyzing the weapon list and all of the numbers:

- Weapons with high # of "attacks per swing", at the least a nice '4' atks per swing and upwards; those are the weapons that will excel at inflincting a status ailment / special-property upon attacking because each "atk per swing" runs the formula each time.

- Weapons with high # of atks per swing USUALLY have average-to-low "accuracy", i.e. the number above the DMG spread on the weapon sheet. Example: the pick (used throughout the game for mining random ores) has -3 accuracy modifier. that is very bad; that means that it will substract 3 points from the character's total accuracy when they attack (a hidden stat which the game calculates using some math formulas that take into account the character's CLASS and their LEVEL; note that STRENGTH does not grant any accuracy bonus whatsoever however it does increase exponentially, not linearly (!), the total DMG output).

(ninjas have the highest base accuracy stat, followed by fighters, then sharing 3rd place the Lords/Valkyrie/Samurai, and in 4th place the hunter and in 5th place the Thief. After the Thief all the rest have a number, of course, but it's inconsequential really)

- you want to give chars/classes that have low accuracy (clerics, bishops, alchemists, summoners, etc) weapons that deal as many "atks per swings" as possible. Obviously if they're in the back-row then their weapon selection is extremely limited: but there are some nice weapons for the non-martial classes like the skylark bow, the magician's bow, many Whips (you'll be inundated in fucking whips by post-game), and the end-game Staves/Staff weapons are extremely good but require enchanting to infintie range if in back-row since they're S-range unlike bows and whips.

- don't worry about non-martial chars' dmg output instead try to find them a weapon w/ a high # of atks per swing and enchant that w/ something like sleep or confusion (if you can spare the Ores, if not don't bother).

Now, for warrior-types you don't need to worry much about using a weapon with high Accuracy except in the game's beginning when no one can hit shit.

- Ninjas/Fighters/Lords/Valkyries/Samurais/Hunters (in that order...) will continually gain a +1 to their hidden accuracy stat number as they increase in level (don't know the formula, but it's in the jap wiki), and those classes all gain 1 extra "atk per swing" every 5 levels i believe.

- yes, that means the martial-classes by end-game even if using a weapon with only 1 atk per swing will still strike many, many times because as they increase in level their amount of atks per swings increases.

- The Class Mastery skill(s) of Phys Atk Up and Phys Atk UP+ both do the same thing: they increase BOTH the DAMAGE and they also factor into the accuracy attack roll.

- The class mastery skill(s) for magician-types, i.e. magic pwr up and the like, work exactly the same except with spells. And yes, that means a Cleric with Cleric Magic Power UP+ will ALWAYS deal heal waaay more when casting healing spells and it also means that this Cleric will ALWAYS have a much, MUCH better chance of landing instant-death spells than, say, a Bishop (because the Bishop only has Cleric Magic Pwr Up, without the 'plus', and it's like half as good).

- BTW, yes, magic pwr up class mastery skills also impact success rate of landing a status ailment spell and, of course, also directly affect the final dmg output of a direct-dmg spell.

- Raising the elemental ATTACK % on one of your armor pieces directly increases the success rate / dmg, of the corresponding spells of that element.

- Instant death spells (cleric-school) are Dark element, btw. Raise your dark def % to nullify that shit when enemies cast it on you, and increase the ATK % of the dark element in order to instant death the enemy. Note that they go all the fucking way up to freaking 400%.

- at 100% you nullify a spell/breath/"attack" of the element of which you have that 100%
- at 200% you absorb it and it gives you hit points
- at 300% you reflect the attack back at the enemy full force
- no clue what having 400% does

EDIT: end-game enemies (and post-game ones) will sometimes be packing very good Armor Class (i.e. a very low AC) and these "tank" enemies the most efficient way to kill them without having to waste mage spells lowering their AC is to prepare ahead of time by equipping the most ACCURATE weapons you can find, i.e. good/strong weapons for your front-row that have an accuracy modifier number of 3, 4 or 5 (or better).

you will begin to notice that the weapons are supremely balanced this is literally the only RPG i've ever played where it has almost 300+ different weapons that comprise 1-handed, 2-handed, allows dual-wielding, features 3 different ranges of attack and other misc. stuff (i.e. allows enchanting for special properties upon landing a blow) that throughout the ENTIRE GAME you will never, ever, ever feel like there is a definitively superior weapon or weapon combo that should always be used.

i'd need an entire new post to talk about the incredible finnesse present in the weapon balance in elmiange: gothic (much better balance than in the previous games).

and yes, i know end-game Spears are kind of OP

EDIT x2: warrior-types gain 1 extra "atk per swing" every 10 (ten) levels and magician-type classes gain 1 extra atk per swing every 20 (twenty).

however remember magician-type classes do not gain increased accuracy modifier from leveling. I think the cleric gains +1 and the mage/summoner/alchemist/bishop stay at '0' the entire game. all that shit is in the jp wiki.

doesn't really matter though i only started reading all this shit after playing the damn game for 400 hours, heh.

 

[Haplo]

aweigh,

Wow, that's... just priceless. A mountain of valuable info, including stuff about ToHit and number of attacks I haven't seen anywhere before. Seems it's a bit like Stranger of Sword City with differetent Hit starting values for each class. And it's not +1 hit every level here? So it's +1 attack every 5 or every 10 levels for warriors? Do you have a link to this wiki subpage? I couldn't find it.

Also highly valuable infor regarding the enchanting priority. Yeah, I wnet trough Afun Zar and experienced the horror of 6x 150+ Holy Breaths+ per turn. That wasn't very fun. Still not enough to gear up against Holy, I guess.

I'd love to remove the race limitation on the Spiral Spear, but I just haven't found an ore potent enough to do this yet. I've found quite many +1 ores, but only ONE had 31 AP, ONE had 25 and all other were below 20 AP. Well, my Alchemist finally has his mastery, so over time he will get a bonus. But currently at level 29 it's like +3% so negligible for now. He's Innocent and long term I'm considering replacing him with a monster adventurer Samurai in my primary team (probably Nue, maybe Mifune). Or maybe with a Don Mag Mage nuker (with MoR? ) But I guess I'd miss his spells quite a bit.


The MoR Bicorn would be a glorious glass cannon I think... (Brawler damage x 1,5; 20% base behead, mass death spells fueled by a base bonus of 200%) but perhaps a bit too risky one (rather low base Status defences and elemental resists - only immune to Petrify and Darkness).
Plus the 20% behead could really interfere with my Summon Contract attempts.

So I put some effort to capture the other monster I've had my sight set on - the Tempest Efreet. Aaand... mission success! Only since 4 days I've been agonizing about the ExSkill choice. Courtier's and yours input has helped me immensly.
It's like I tought with the MoR.. powerfull, but risky - moreso at the high levels. I'm a bit surprised you recommend Spirit Contract over MoR for back-row nukers. Isn't Spirit Contract only +20-25% (as opposed to MoR +50%)? Obviously much safer though.

I can definately see the value of Bracing... but at the same time it seems slightly... mundane, boring. After reading your earlier posts, I've already put the War Ritual on my Summoner (wish he were a Dragonnewt with the breath). Chi Wave seems tempting... powerfull and flexible.... however no combos on a Brawler would hurt ... could work well on a Cleric I guess. So yesterday I settled on Swallow Killer, which would serve me well, I guess. But today I'm having second thoughts. It's slightly niche, as you don't face Swallow Return enemies all the time. At least theoretically, you can also disable them with status effects. And I'm considering MoR again.. it's always on and a 4-hit chain ending with a 3x damage Clean Hit empowered by MoR could be a glorious thing to witness. A glass cannon... but what a glass cannon!

 

[aweigh]

haven't read your reply yet but saw u wanted this link so wanted to give it to ya right quick:

http://translate.google.com/transla...p://spoiler2.sakura.ne.jp/srv2/elg/index.html

it is a google-translated mirror of the japanese wiki so... get ready for "engrish", but trust me man it is more than easy to understand. Some stuff is quite funny like for example google translates valkyries as GOD-WOMAN, and lords are MONARCHS, hehe.

Bishop is TSUKASE, FIGHTERS are called War-Kuns (awwww War-kun chan kawaaii), ninjas are called SHINOBU because, i mean, c'mon right?-- shamans are called SHRINE MAIDENS (this actually hearkens back to the original FEMALE role of that char class in elminage: original) and i forget the rest.

Werebeasts = Lower animals / low-beast

everything else is pretty goddamn straightfoward i only ever became confused when reading the japanese-translated char/class names.

if doubt something post it here. The jp wiki has EVERYTHING. all the fucking math homework u could ever hope for in terms of knowing EXACTLY how that melee attack is calculated hah, and stuff like that.

the only thing i'd recommend NOT doing is viewing the dungeon maps! obviously! that's all. looking at the complete item list is simply put, awe-inspiring, there are total 750 items, with 300 of those being WEAPONS and 250 or so being armor pieces.

fucking mind blowing isn't it. All perfectly fucking balanced.

 

[aweigh]

BTW, i haven't commented on your journey to become the best there ever was w/ the monster adventurers because i don't want to ruin it by saying oh just get this one or just get that one, etc. In reality there actually IS NO PERFECT summon, and there IS NO PERFECT Monster Adventurer.

the game is so fucking well balanced that eeeeeeerybody's gonna get their shit kicked in in the post-game. You think your monster adventurer with, some fucking shit like breaking enemy armor/weapons when they attack or because they have 200% dark element defense or that because they come with some absurdly OP stuff like AC decline on a non-ninja/brawler type? think that'll help?

hehe. well, you'll have tons of fun! at first i disliked having to poke-ball catch my summons (in Starfish's earlier 'crawler series you had to fight them in pre-determined locations, hidden away secret style inside each dungeon, and when u beat the summon they would join your summoner: i think that is VERY cool); but after i was on my 3rd playthrough i said fuck it, i'm gonna go w/ a summoner. Gotta say without the summoner (and his poke-catches) my current journey to the 20th floor of the post-game's Ibag's Tower would've been waaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaay different.

the only TRULY broken summons that can be "caught" are all in the post-game and they all have 100% resistance to summoning which means by default if you dn't have a brawler scoring that clean hit on them to lower that to 80% you will never get them. And that's fine, because the post-game enemies are just fucking ridiculous. (in a good way).

and btw, my very first summon catch was the leprechaun dezarpolia tunnel i used that guy all the way to the "end-game" and had him front and center fighting dark gods.

(summons who have healing spells are insanely valuable, much more so sometimes, sometimes!, than DPS summons or the like. There is nothing like not having to waste a turn using one of ur chars to heal the party when your current summons does it for you.)

also ninjas can summon "themselves", btw, via ex-skill Replica. it's like a poor man's summon and i think it has merit but it is no substitute.

pro-tip for your inevitable 2nd playthrough (not because of frustration but because of sheer enjoyment of this game): classes you want to be high as fuck level as possible fastest possible, i.e. alchemists so their Ore bonus rises fast, and well... can't think of anyone else I want to level up quickly... heh. Alchemists are the only true legitimate chink in E: Gothic's game balance: they are simply indispensible. Not having an Alchy in your party is basically not just not playing "right", but missing out on a HUGE gameplay system...

right, so yeah Humans level up the fastest so a human alchemist will level up the fastest out of any race combo.

a human thief can skyrocket to absurd levels in post-game shit like being 100 lvls ahead of the other companions but in the end doesn't matter that much except it means they will almost never fail a trap-disarm (almost) which is always good; i actually prefer my Thieves being dragon-newt race or werebeast or dwarf due to their high STR. They have shit luck but what's Wizardry gameplay without the ocassional wipe from a bad trap disarm anyway

on the flip side a meta-gamey combo courtier recommended is a HOTLET ninja due to their 20+ agility stat. agility is part of the math formula the game uses when rolling the "dice" on if the ninja will hide in shadows successfully or not; and that shit is p. awesome.

insane ninja high AGI also means they'll atk first so they'll behead dangerous enemies first (hotlets have shit STR but beheading doesn't require STR ... and it also means that since they'll usually act first you can then plan and use your NINJA to DEFEND (the actual defend command) OTHER PARTY MEMBERS, the ones w/ bad armor class and/or low amount of total HP.

easy to overlook in elminage you can have a good Armor Class character use their turn to "defend" another companion and it is a very, very nice +10 bonus to the protected char's armor class.

(when defending YOURSELF you only get a paltry +4 bonus to your own armor class, heh).

 

[aweigh]

Spirit Contract has a very generious scaling, versus a flat bonus from mark of ruin (which increases in power but not because it is 'scaling', it increases in power because YOU increase in power; huge difference! spirit contract, in simple terms, functions like a baby-brother to the Magic Power Up class-mastery skills and will be boosting dat Mage-school damage nicely.

You'll end up picking spirit contract though because it also, again since it functions exactly the same as the class-mastery magic UP skills, raises chances ever-so-slightly for the status-affliction dice roll, which you will begin to rely on much more than enterook mistas.

mark of ruin is awesome for a fighter char, preferably one of the dragonnewt race for that godly 22 STR (after certain attribute numbers, in the case of STR it is 15, after '15' str begins producing damage bonus that are no longer LINEAR but rather exponentially; i.e. Crrraaazy shit happens once an attribute passes '18'.

in the case of INT for example any char who can attain 18+ INT will be the undisputed king of inflicting status/affliction spells on the enemy, the king of doing the most dmg with a spell, the king of etc, you get the picture.

same with PIETY, though i can't remember if it's magic number 18 for PIE (each attribute has a special "number" that once surpassed the gains the char receives from that attribute go off the fucking chain: again, that is why i mentioned that 2 points difference in STRENGTH (newt race vs dwarv race) ends up w/ the 22 STR dragon-newt dealing a whopping 20-25% more total melee dmg (hence why i say it stops being linear).

same shit happens magic-wise with the INT and PIE attributes which, of course, makes the char-gen all the better because that means a werebeast with their super bad INT (they have average PIETY tho) will NEVER, EVER be the one that "always lands that MISAMA right when you needed it"; whereas if that char were elf who can reach motherfucking 21 (or was it 22?) on INT means elves are the best at casting Mage-school spells.

that doesn't mean they're all that great though. it's all very well balanced. It is also not a very great idea to make 22 STR 'Newts your front-row for example as they have pitiful LUCK, woeful AGILITY (if the enemy gets the first attacks in post-game kiss half your party good-bye) and pitiful INT/PIETY which means.. . what? it means that they will struggle a LOT (if not downright impossible) to change into Elite classes like lord/ninja/samurai and valkyrie due to the high AGI/LUK/INT/PIETY requirements.

it's 100% doable of course (i've had dragon-newt Samurai) it just means you have to know EXACTLY what you're doing and meta-game the char to the hilt in order to cultivate his bad stats, but hey, he'll have 22 STR.

 

[aweigh]

NOTE***: I have previously posted a working mod for the PC version which changes ALL of the game's items to the 3ds version's stats, btw... I also modded into the PC version around 70 of the 250~ or so "new" items from the 3ds version (i was not able to add more items than that); means you can steal the same claws +3 from johnny dragon in pc version as you can do so in the 3ds version. doesn't really make a ton of difference though.

was NOT able to mod: ability to donate gold for exp or ability to change ex-skill. Changing the ex-skill is super-easily done via hex-editing your save game file, it takes less than 3 minutes.

Oh! I also added the ogre/goblin races to the pc ver. I haven't posted the most recent version of the files because i'm basically the only one who wants them tee-hee, but just PM me if you want them. It's just 3 .CSV files editied w/ the shit changed in the same .CSV files from the 3ds thing.

Brief 8min video of me playing a bit of the 3DS Remix Edition of Elminage: Gothic. In the video I get into 2 random encounters but spend most of the video showing the viewer the items that were changed (their stats), WHY they were changed (i.e. they brought back Armor gear with Accuracy Bonuses and low/no actual defense; which is one of the things I most loved about Wiz-Empire 1 and 2.

Makes choosing your "outfit" way more tactical. Sacrifie 2 points of AC and instead of going w/ the full plate choosing to wear the black robe instead because it has a super-sweet +2 point bonus to the THACO (remember, wiz-empire used THACO).

so, yeah, also they changed around half of the game's dungeons' floor layouts and so far... that's been just enough to entice me to play E: Gothic from beginning to end for a 4th time; even if the new floor layouts aren't THAT exciting. they're just... floor maps... with the walls in places where they weren't. Wee.

but the most important thing, i think, is that they added approx. 250 new items (spoiler: they're all OP shit meant to make the game super easy, tee hee) and 90% of those new items were given to the game's huge roster of enemies. Almost every single enemy has a new weapon to steal, just like Elminage: Original.

is that "exciting enough"? not really. i don't personally go for having Brawlers in the party so right there I have no incentive to bother stealing 50% of the "new items" (monster claws, etc). However they did add around 8-12 new fighter-type armor/weapons that are... fucking retarded.

there's a new sword, the DIVINE SWORD, which is 3x better than the Holy Saber, oh and it's Main-hand LOL

on the plus side they did something i always did myself while tweaking the items in the PC version: they made the cursed items worth using. So far from playing (only up to dezarpolia tunnel) every single cursed item has SOMETHING going for it: 1 extra atk per swing, built-in normal damage versus ghosts/undead, a (strangely placed) +1 or +2 points of Accuaracycompared to the non-cursed version of the weapon, etc.

they also increased substantially the % (amount of) elemental/type/magic resistances/defenses on ALL protective gear. Yes, I'm saying exactly that: they made the accessory items extremely OP.

the fucking game-starting Obi belt now features +2 modifier to wearers ACCURACY. yay! or not, because it means right from the very beginning you get to experience the joy of your party NEVER, EVER MISSING A SINGLE SWING.

sure, some may find THAT fun but that is not FUN and they should know better.

anyway, the main draw is simply playing it again w/ slightly altered floor layouts; and Dorarnae has told me that they boosted the Floor Master stats like Craaazy. I canv erify that yes, the 1st dungeon's FM, good ole Vorkmeister, is 100% unbeatable, hah.

(this time didn't have a Bard to just Tarot-charm him and watch him decapitate himself, heh). How'd they make FM's tougher? well for starters Vorky there now does 3 attacks per turn. Heh.

Anyway i guess since i wrote the entire thing here the point of the video now is simply to watch the CITRA emulator working flawlessly and running the game oh yes 3ds emulation has arrived.

EDIT:

- they added: being able to change your ex-skill for gold pieces in the training hall, also they added ability to donate gold in training hall and receive EXP points just like elminage: Original; they also added 2 new races to choose right in the char-gen that are hilariously OP they added "Ogres" and "Goblins". there is now ZERO reason to choose any other race than those two. They are retardedly OP.

 

[Haplo]

aweigh,

Really appreciate all the info you provide.

I've asked about the japanese wikia subpage where information like THACO calculations and number of attacks can be found. Also wonder if the additional attacks are made at a decreasing ToHit - DnD 3rd ed. style.
Or for that matter whether Int/Piety affects the status affliction rates or whether Mage/Priest/Alchemy Spell UP(+) factor into those affliction chances. For example on the Alchemy spell subpage, it is mentioned that Int has almost no impact on Alchemy spell effects.
I've been reading the japanese wiki already after you recommended it before (so I've been learning "engrish"), but cannot find such specific info.

Btw. I'm pretty confident that additional attacks are earned at least every 5 levels on warrior classes. Otherwise my level 27 Valkyrie couldn't score 9 hits in an attack (with a 3 attack Innocent Sword).

I think Hotlet would also be nice for a Thief - due to the stellar Luck stat, along with high Agility. And I believe at least one of those factors into the unequip/steal chances.
If you care about such things, that is. I'm lacking party slots, so decided not to. Although I am considering that when I will be filthy rich, I might recruit a hotlet Thief and use my hard-earned money to level her enough to have a shot at some floor master's weapons. Doubt I would ever be able to steal anything from the post game enemies, though.

Interesting info about the 3DS version. Ogres & Goblins sound nice. However an Ogre still won't have a 'Newt's Breath, will he? I don't know the stats on a Goblin, but I'd imagine Elves or werebeasts can still be better caster and/or multiclass candidates... or Gnomes and Dwarves for divine casters (the latter excelling at Valkyrie/Lord roles).


Oh and I very well realize that having great monster adventurers and summons still won't make this game a cakewalk... far from it. I fully expect to frequently wipe. Perhaps even moreso for now, as every time I recruit a new one, I have a grossly underleveled character, who will never reach quite the same level as my Alchemist/Valkyrie or even Mage/Bishop.

But it's fun and I think it's not quite possible to reach certain character build aspects otherwise. Maybe some of them with powerful Alchemy... but you will run of APs and slots before you can get a 90% resistance to (nearly) all status effects plus 200% resist to 2 elements. And you can still cover the remaining 1-2 status effects (Sleep, not sure if worth it for Poison) and 2 Elements (Fire, Darkness, not sure if worth it for Holy) with items/Alchemy. And for that you actually have enough item slots. Plus it's high-ish Turn Recovery of 30 counteracts the ill effects of Mark of Ruin - for now (not quite the 160 of Mino Chief or 999 of the Phoenix, but still thats 60 APs worth... best ore I have is 31).
Or have a Ninja with 35% Charm, 25% Behead and 5% most other statuses BEFORE you factor her weapons or Ninja Behead UP.
In the future having a Samurai who can parry & counter an enemy attack, breaking his weapon and having a good chance to apply several status effects (30-50% in 5 statuses) sounds neat also. Especially if coupled with strong defenses across the board as well.
Or a Mage who can potentially still nuke with his built-in 300-200% Elemental boosts.
Yeah, it won't make the game easy. But... neat. Aaand mayyybe a little bit safer. And maybe I will have to grind Alchemy slightly less.

The nice thing about this game is that all these systems are optional. Great, but absolutely not necessary to finish the game. You wrote that an Alchemist seems a mandatory class. And I guess this probably is true for the post-game. But I think he's not necessary to beat the base game content. I mean for crafting he's only better then a vanilla level 1 Alchemist once he passes level 26 - and even then his bonuses are negligible - initially.
Perhaps having an all monster-adventurer party with all with characters with strong resistances could even alleviate the need for one in the post-game - maybe. But it's certainly better to have them compliment each other.
There are many such nice synergies in the game: Thief - Servant (enemies often have herbs), Alchemist/Mage - Hunter (pursuit attack/sweep), Brawler - Summoner (though mages could also benefit from reduced resistance... perhaps a Cleric to have a shot at insta-kill?) and probably many other.

 

[Twizman]

Hey I just started Dezaporlia Tunnel and am a bit confused as to where to go next. I found a thirsty npc and a few mining spots on floor 1. The map on the wiki shows a room with a switch, not sure how to access it.

 

[aweigh]

before i forget: yes, oh yes, int/pie directly factor heavily into the math formula game uses for each spell.

different formula is used for afflictions that are dealt via striking with a "special property" weapon. i.e. i learned (by my own experimentation) that having alchemy-school resistance does nothing whatsoever versus an enemy with a melee attack (or breath) that Charms, for example.

the spell-school resists are for spells from those schools. handy, but 2nd place to first concentrating on raising %'s of shit like beheading. (for the end-game, i mean... those ninjas be crazy)

 

[aweigh]

Haplo

don't worry mate, Starfish knows EXACTLY what they're doing. Check this shit out:

- 1-handed weapons (main/subs) have a hard cap of a maximum possible 10 "hits per 1 attack". (this raises by 1 extra for every spell casting of ORATH, but that's neither here nor there)

- TWO-handed weapons can reach the same 10 hits per swing, BUUUUT whatever their actual number is for the (example) the 2-h Axe's number '3' signifying that axe does minimum of 3 atks per swing-- you know that number?

Well 2-handed weapons get the normal 10 hits and then they receive an additional amount of hits on top of the 10 that is determined by the weapons "atks per swing" number.

EXAMPLE: the Hell Sword (has to be stolen!) has 3 atks per swing, and does so-so dmg for a 2-h sword that has to be stolen... but in comparison to all the other 2-hand weapons you suddenly realize that almost 95% of all of them only feature 1, or maybe at maximum 2 atks per swing.

this means the Hell Sword, used by a martial-type char w/ high Levels, will hit an enemy for 13 hits, but if using the High King's Sword which has better stats than the hell sword buuut only features '1' extra atk per swing, then he will only reach 11 hits !

starting to realize how subtly elegant the whole thing is? because remember, there is also a very important 2nd modifier: the number that denotes the weapons accuaracy, which is the number that most directly resolves the math formula conflict between your ATTACK versus the enemy's Armor Class.

(i.e. higher the Accuracy number on the weapon the exponentially better your changes of "winning the dice roll" versus an enemy with high Armor Class; and the point being that one should strive to find gear that best features BOTH of these things)

- in the end, in the very very end, i realized that the entire weapon/itemization is goddamn nigh pefect. throughout different phases in the gameplay sometimes some shit will be preferable to other shit, but in e: Gothic dual-wielding, 1 hand and shield, and 2-handed weapons, AND also RANGED weapons (those are capped to 10 hits regardless of being 2-handed); they are ALL equally deep and viable.

the interplay w/ the then number of "native amount of extra attacks per swing" that Classes earn as they level up throughout the gameplay only adds even more spice. I didn't end up realizing that non-martial types would absolutely 100% benefit most from having extra chances to "hit", i.e. weapons w/ above-average atks per swing, because each one of those 13 hits from a Hell Sword is 13 times the formula for resolving versus the enemy's AC, and when you know a tiny bit about how "odds work" you realize immediately that that is much preferable for a character who either has extremely low native atks per swing, or simply put their Class flat out does not gain any extra attacks, ever (like the alchemist for example!).

(i hesitate to spoil this but there is an end-game weapon meant for Alchemists (but usable by anyone) that exemplafies everything i wrote it is a L-range weapon that packs 10 atks per swing and does mediocre dmg and has mediocre accuracy. It is FANTASTIC for using it to enchant it w/ as much % of confusion/poison and the like and having those 10 hits per character attack become 10 opportunities to sleep/confuse 'em).

i'll post about weapon philosophy for the actual warrior types later today but it isn't as simple as simply "opposite of all that; it's a tiny bit more interesting due to the incredible itemization in the game, something which means simply: the care and attention to detail paid by the game's devs to ensure that every single weapon was not redundant or out of place or existing without reason.

end-game and post-game gear is crayz fun to get.

EDIT: wanted to add the most obvious thing that: early-game obviously have warrior types use weapons w/ the highest number in the accuracy slot. does not matter the dmg, or the atks per swing, only that their weapon being used HITS, and using weapons in early-game that feature -1 or '0' in the accuracy (thaco) modifier slot is guaranteed missing tons and tons.

once they're level 15 - 20 onwards you can breath easy knowing they now posses built-in extra "atks per swing".

however the accuracy (thaco) number modifier continues being important because it is directly referenced in the formula that resolves the char's attack on the enemy's Armor Class.

and obviously dmg matters, and atks per swing, and if you want to kill 2 weak enemies possibly at once (dual wielding) or using 2 handed to make sure to target lethal threats and hit them hard enough to kill them fast before trouble starts.

some classes do the dual wielding better because they have class-access to better weapons (in terms of) suited for dual wielding, or in other classes like fighter, as obvious example, THEY can equip literlaly amost ANYTHING, all types (!), so they get access to weapons of every style BUT the end-game Fighter weapons are all 2-handed and it is for an obvious reason:

- 2handed dmg output benefits mathematically from the char's STR attribute more, much more than 2 seperate weapons dividing their damage dice rolls; therefore end-game fighter weapons are 2handed axes and swords (among many other stuff, of course).

that all counts under the umbrella of itemization, of course. it's a lost art

EDIT: and don't forget mid-game onwards a lot of weapons also come packing Armor Class bonuses (i.e. a negative number); further adding to the continually addictive experience of killing and looting and clearing dungeons and killing and looting, oh my.

and trust me, nothing in the game is superfluous. in post-game dungeons (or the final two dungeons before post-game even) you WILL find yourself deciding between having your ninja use the 2-handed needle vambrace because it gives him extra armor class (that weapon packs a whopping -4) but that means changing him to the front-row as the weapon is only S-range. In this scenario the ninja needs it because you're planning on using his boosted A.C. to:

- 1st of all using his turn to DEFEND another companion.

- 2nd and much more useful than that: remember to CAST THE ALCHEMY SPELL BULAFEI. Bulafei makes enemies target WHICHEVER COMPANION YO?U CHOOSE!

- YES! THAT MEANS MAKING THE ENEMY TARGET THE AC-boosted NINJA/character!

anyway enough for now feel like my fingers are gonna drop off

 

[aweigh]

sorry i meant the BIFEI spell. bulafei renders a companion in the same state as "hidden" that thieves/ninjas can access.

btw, don't overlook using that one too. when "hidden" the following "sneak attack" inflicts 2x dmg (and it's not gone after 1 atk, it depends on, again, a math formula that uses the thief/ninja/s AGILITY and LUCK in conflict resolution versus the enemy's LUCK, and primarly (!) the enemy's LEVEL, to determine whether they are "found" after 1 attack)

if NOT found that means more and more 2x dmg "sneak attacks", in a best case scenario. Also, hidden chars, be they ninja/thief or someone who received BULAFEI spell, are impervious to attacks or magic that requires the enemy to "choose" a target, as a human player would have to pick a target.

think aboiut that

EDIT: and oh, yes you are right about THACO being the influence here. Starfish is comprised of ex-Wizardry developers from the japanese branch that Sir-tech openeed in mid-90's up to mid-2000's.

that jap branch produced the best Wiz games ever like the wiz empire series and the gaiden seriees and when they lost the rights to make Wiz games they thus Starfish studio was born and their first game(s) were Elminage: Original and onwards. Elminage is literally Wizardry mechanics 1:1 except polished and taken to their most elegant pinnacle of execution in design.

You should go ahead and play the english fan-translation of wiz-empire 2 that was done from codex members. You will be surprised at how similar it will feel to your elminage play. also the Wiz-Empire dungeons... dude, they are fantastic, they are EXCELLENT. better than elminage dungeons (with noted exceptions such as the Royal Tomb).

...and my POINT was that Wizardry = DND. The brothers when they developed Wiz 1 in the early 80's literally set forth on making their attempt at replication as faithfully as possible their experiences playing 70's DND.

wiz copied shamelessly a ton of DND mechanics, such as the THACO, and the games were much better due to this.

 

[Haplo]

Well, I've made a little shortcut to the Volcano after reaching the Sanctum (technically cheating), as I didn't want my fresh recruits to start at the very end of the base game. So I will still have the entire Royal Tomb, most of Sanctum and most of Volcano left.
And again, mission success! Poke-balled a Nue and Don Mag. Took a bit of effort and many wipes - neither of those can be controlled, as they have very high resists (mostly 75-90 range, except Behead in case of Nue), recover even from Paralysis/Petrification and have 80% Status Recovery. But it was doable even with Summoner 7 levels lower then them.

Nue is excellent as a Summon, btw. 3 actions, Hide, Group Attack, Swallow Return, 3 Status afflictions at 30%, Confusion at 50%, Ziakalad (with 300% boost), Zeo Nadar, Barrier. I almost regretted turning him into a monster adventurer. Of course could grind poke-balling him again, but eh. There are decent simpler targets.
Gave him Bracing, btw. Was debating Swallow Killer, Qi Wave and Spirit Contract. But SK is situational - and in those instances he can try to fall back on his Samurai spells, including 300% boosted Lightning and Zeo Nadar or try to defend other characters with his own Swallow Return. Qi Wave probably wouldn't transfer his awesome Status Effects? Spirit Contract would, again, be situational, as I think he will use melee more then spells. Like aweigh advised, Brace can save his skin always.
In a risky move, he will replace the Alchemist, so I will see if I can survive without high level crafting and limited use of Alchemy magic (Summoner knows all spells, but only 3 uses... Nue has level 7; Don Mag has level 7 and 6).

Don Mag is not too shabby either. Nukes with Enterook Mista and Zeo Nadar, spams War Rite, can heal the party with Rafeireed. And uses melee too... for some unknown reason (~10 points of damage?). A little squishy at this point of the game though.
Got this crazy idea to replace my elf Bishop with him. Should be much more durable with his Status Resists and deal way more damage with his own elemental boosts, mage class Mastery boosts and Spirit Contract/Mark of Ruin instead of Magic Essence. Think I'm aiming for MoR, as it will also empower his Enterook Mistas and Zeo Nadars.
But this means I will be left with no dedicated healer. There's Valkyrie - but no Priest Spell UP mastery. Also now I kinda regret not choosing Hand of Kindness for her (she has Swallow Killer). Summoner knows all Cleric spells, but again, no mastery, no HoK and only 3 uses per level. Don Mag knows the 7th level, but no mastery, no HoK and 3 uses.
Can my party survive this way? With 2 characters with Mark of Ruin, no less? That is the big question.

 

[Courtier]

Hey I just started Dezaporlia Tunnel and am a bit confused as to where to go next. I found a thirsty npc and a few mining spots on floor 1. The map on the wiki shows a room with a switch, not sure how to access it.

You might have to check for secret doors along the way

 

[aweigh]

Courtier Dorateen Deuce Traveler Siveon Dorarnae Emmanuel2

After playing through almost half of the campaign again on 3ds I have finally sated my curiosity to its fullest extent and can without a shadow of a doubt say which version of Elminage: Gothic is best:

- The PC (and japanese language PSP version from which it was ported) version is the best. Why?

1. The 3DS version is simply too easy.
2. The enemy stats were reduced which completely trivialize any random encounter.
3. (Even with the additional gear) that Starfish tacked onto enemy inventories there is no overtly compelling reason to steal because all of the new gear (or tweaked gear) was tweaked to be over-powered.
4. The map layouts are different but they're different in an easier way. While it is still fun to play through altered map layouts it is however not fun knowing that almost every dungeon will include easy-to-find shortcuts that loop the player back to the beginning of the dungeon.
5. The new altered map layouts end up becoming humdrum because Starfish did not utilize the opportunity to implement new traps, chutes or the like. They are, simply put, "less dense" and easier to navigate.


Some argue that they "properly" balanced the game with the 3DS remix edition but I am here to say that they did the exact opposite: the game is unbelievably easy now and you can auto-battle and win every single fight (except for the floor masters) due to the new Accuracy-enhancing items and due to the lowered enemy stats.

The two new races added are also over-powered and make the experience even easier than it already was.

My recommendation? If, like me, Elminage: Gothic hooked you like no game has ever hooked you before and you simply cannot get enough of the game then yes, you should play the 3DS version if you want to but ONLY AFTER FINISHING THE PC VERSION.

Stuff that also makes it too easy but has not been mentioned elsewhere:

- They increased the Resurrection % off spells like RIZEFUS back to Elminage: Original levels which means dying has zero consequence during battle. Simply have someone cast RIZEFUS and continue the battle as normal; zero tension involved.

- They increased the secret door success % back to "guaranteed". On this part I'm ambivalent. I'm not gonna try and defend having to check each square for a secret door when stuck as "elegant gameplay" design...

- All of the new material (items, enemies, races) is there to make the game easier. The items make hitting enemies easier, the new enemies are there to grant access to gear that is over-powered, and the new races are there to allow the creation of indestructible uber-parties.

On the plus side it is true that all of the floor masters were definitely made much more difficult to contend with. Downside? Due to the increased Resurrection % of RIZEFUS it ends up being a wash if the party is well-prepared.

The single smartest thing Starfish did with the (original and definitive) versions of Elminage: Gothic was to lower the Resurrection % of RIZEFUS, in my opinion. This is after well 1000 combined hours of gameplay of the PC version and the 3DS version recently, plus 200 hours of Elminage: Original gameplay and 100 hours of Elminage 2 gameplay.

The biggest "miss", in the end, is not the over-powered new races (just don't use them) or the over-powered new gear (don't use it); it's that Starfish went to the trouble of making alternative layouts for almost every single dungeon map and they made the maps DUMBER.

That is very sad.

EDIT:

- They added back the ability to donate money in exchange for experience points which is fine because: It requires way too much gold to buy enough EXP to over-level a character, much more than you'll regularly have access to, but it does provide the player with the opportunity to quickly create a new character and level them up to their "teens".

- They added the ability to change ex-skills by paying gold. This, like the secret door success rate % change, I'm ambivalent about. You can do this in the PC version by changing class in the Training Hall or by editing the save games (you can learn how to do that in the english-language wiki under the section Game Mods); but out of all the "makes-the-game-easier-improvements" this is the only one that seems legit.

This was purposefully removed from Elminage: Gothic, btw, because in Elminage 3 (PSP) you can change ex-skills at any time. Starfish obviously wanted to make the game more hard-core by making the ex-skill choice semi-permanent.

- They included an option to remove the usage of "Magic Maps" in the game's options menu. Again, another option I'm ambivalent about. Considering you get a multi-use Goblin Map (side-quest in the Tree Dungeon) and later an infinite use map (Duma Stone by completing a quest in the Green Light Cave dungeon); I never had any problems of running out of opportunities to view the map.

 

[Deuce Traveler]

Thanks for the report. I got Elminage: Gothic on Steam due to your recommendations, so glad to see I got the right version. I was hoping to be playing it already, but we have been short-manned at work since January and I'm behind on several projects for the Codex. Because Elminage is such a long game, I might try to finish Wizardry: Labyrinth of Souls on the PS3 first.

 

[aweigh]

It's not really that long. If you already know what you're doing you can probably finish Ibag's Tower at around level 200-250 with only around 125-150 hours clocked

Or, do it this way: Finish the story-mode dungeons (although the "story" never truly stops) and you're only looking at 40-60 hours' worth of clocked game time, and your party will almost probably be at around levels 50-65.

If after finishing the last story-dungeon you want to play something else, go right ahead, and then you can return and finish the remaining post-game content.

(which, I repeat, isn't really post-anything at all since the story continues; the only difference is after the arbitrarily denoted "last story dungeon" you see the credits roll by but the game continues as normal unlike other japanese RPGs where the post-game is truly disconnected from the normal story content).

 

[agris]

It's not really that long. If you already know what you're doing you can probably finish Ibag's Tower at around level 200-250 with only around 125-150 hours clocked

Or, do it this way: Finish the story-mode dungeons (although the "story" never truly stops) and you're only looking at 40-60 hours' worth of clocked game time, and your party will almost probably be at around levels 50-65.

If after finishing the last story-dungeon you want to play something else, go right ahead, and then you can return and finish the remaining post-game content.

(which, I repeat, isn't really post-anything at all since the story continues; the only difference is after the arbitrarily denoted "last story dungeon" you see the credits roll by but the game continues as normal unlike other japanese RPGs where the post-game is truly disconnected from the normal story content).

Have you considered writing down chardev, itemdev and gameplay walkthroughs in a concise guide for new players? I bet it would be used extensively.

 

[Dorarnae]

the change with maps on 3ds are only the first few dungeon, (up until you reach the church, and the church is actually the only dungeon I wish they kept intact).

both version are good for different reason I guess, but overall I prefer the 3ds one, feels more complete. (being able to re-fight all boss ect in the post game so you can steal their shit or have them as pet).

 

[an Administrator]

I have some graphical issues

What should i do? :/