Incline Elminage Gothic (former Japan only dungeon crawler)

[Jason Liang]

Not too much. Most stats only show dramatic improvement at Eighteen and Twenty or above thresholds. HP is essentially rerolled every level up, so there is no permanent penalty for a low starting VIT.

 

[aweigh]

There are no "fixed item drops" in Wizardry... the system is exactly the same as in the Elminage games, you get a chest after a fixed encounter (can be seen on the map with a Sheep's Hairbrush item, crafted via alchemy), and there are 3 tiers of loot lists tied to the dungeon floor, not to enemies.

Again, neither in Wizardry nor in Elminage is loot tied to enemies, they're tied to dungeon floors. There are no fixed item drops, chests produce a result taken from 3 different tiers of lists, it's not "random". This way of doing things is much better than what other games do where they tie drops to enemies, as it is specifically meant to avoid having to fight the same enemy all the time, you only need to be in a dungeon floor that has the items you want in its tier lists.

EDIT: Additionally you can just use a more dangerous floor to increase the odds of getting the item you want:

- for example in floor 2 of a dungeon the Uber Sword or whatever might be Tier 3, but in floor 10 of the same dungeon the Uber Sword is Tier 1 (i.e. more common).

- ...and in the next dungeon that is fundamentally more dangerous it might be that the Uber Sword is Tier 1 right from the first floor, though generally speaking each dungeon has its own combination of items and tier lists.

More dangerous dungeons being better for getting hard-to-get loot from a previous dungeon isn't always set in stone, though. For example, you have a better chance of getting a Tier 3 Masamune (or was it Murasama? can't remember) in the bottom floors of the Volcano dungeon than trying to get it in floor 2 of Ibag's tower, even though technically Ibag's tower is much more dangerous.

Also some items are unique to specific dungeons, like the Hermit's Knife (turns a character into a Ninja but does not allow changing the EX-Skill) in the Royal Tomb pyramid dungeon. AFAIK it doesn't appear anywhere else. Point is if you were fighting "1xp monsters" over and over to get a drop you were playing the game wrong.

EDIT: Not related to item drops but in case you're wondering the two ways to get a ninja with the replicate skill are getting one from rolling Bonus points (good luck with that, don't bother), or class-changing a character into a Ninja naturally when they meet requirements, then you select the ex-skill.

You can get an optional ninja party member of devilish race in the game's 1st dungeon but he doesn't come with the replicate skill. Still, with or without the replica skill a ninja is definitely something you eventually want in your party.

 

[PrettyDeadman]

There are no "fixed item drops" in Wizardry...

There are... in Wizardry 8.

Not related to item drops but in case you're wondering the two ways to get a ninja with the replicate skill are getting one from rolling Bonus points (good luck with that, don't bother), or class-changing a character into a Ninja naturally when they meet requirements, then you select the ex-skill.

It's trivial for me to autoreroll characters until I get desired stat bonus (might take a long time, but its computer time, not mine time).

 

[aweigh]

There are... in Wizardry 8.

One of many reasons Wiz 8 is so inferior to real Wizardry/Elminage games.

Anyway, might as well just hex-edit the save file and change the class and ex-skill, save yourself the time. There are good instructions for this on the english-language E: Gothic wiki. Changing the class/skill is literally just changing one number to another.

 

[PrettyDeadman]

There are... in Wizardry 8.

One of many reasons Wiz 8 is so inferior to real Wizardry/Elminage games.

In what way this is inferior? Is it inferior because it makes the game enjoyable without need to hex edit save files?

 

[aweigh]

In what way this is inferior?

Tying loot to dungeon floors is a more elegant design.

Is it inferior because it makes the game enjoyable without need to hex edit save files?

You're the one who likes to cheat, you tell me.

 

[PrettyDeadman]

Tying loot to dungeon floors is a more elegant design.

Avoiding grind altogether is a better solution. It gives more meaning and weight to exploration and it saves time for players who know what they are doing (i.e. can get an item they need even if it means avoiding dangerous monsters instead of grinding necessary items from the same dungeon).

 

[PrettyDeadman]

Is it inferior because it makes the game enjoyable without need to hex edit save files?

You're the one who likes to cheat, you tell me.

You are the one who admitted cheating and encourages other players to cheat (hex edit save files), not me.

 

[Haplo]

EDIT: Not related to item drops but in case you're wondering the two ways to get a ninja with the replicate skill are getting one from rolling Bonus points (good luck with that, don't bother), or class-changing a character into a Ninja naturally when they meet requirements, then you select the ex-skill.

You can get an optional ninja party member of devilish race in the game's 1st dungeon but he doesn't come with the replicate skill. Still, with or without the replica skill a ninja is definitely something you eventually want in your party.

Then there is a Spirit Pact with a summon. The monster adventurers get a randomly assigned Ex Skill at creation. So getting the desired one might require some luck/rerolls.. but is possible.

 

[Haplo]

Tying loot to dungeon floors is a more elegant design.

Avoiding grind altogether is a better solution. It gives more meaning and weight to exploration and it saves time for players who know what they are doing (i.e. can get an item they need even if it means avoiding dangerous monsters instead of grinding necessary items from the same dungeon).

In most cases there is little/no reason to grind. By moving forward, you'll eventually find better stuff anyway. Getting top end stuff for a class is nearly the only exception.

 

[aweigh]

There is no such thing as "grinding" in Elminage or Wizardry as combat and exploration are their own reward. The entire concept of "grinding" comes from people who have a misapprehension regarding RPGs and a general dislike for the genre; they view combat and exploration as seperate entities, and they think one is an obstacle to the other.

Combat and exploration (and itemization) are the fundamental characteristics of good RPG design and Wizardry and Elminage exemplify this better than any others. Tying loot to a dungeon floor is infinitely more elegant than tying it to specific enemies.

 

[PrettyDeadman]

There is no such thing as "grinding" in Elminage or Wizardry as combat and exploration are their own reward. The entire concept of "grinding" comes from people who have a fundamental misapprehension regarding RPGs and generally dislike them; they view combat and exploration as seperate entities, and they think one is an obstacle to the other.

Combat and exploration are the fundamental characteristics of good RPG design and Wizardry and Elminage exemplify this better than any others. Tying loot to a dungeon floor is infinitely more elegant than tying it to a monster.

Exploration is one thing, but going through already uncovered squares to get a lucky loot drop is not exploration. Furthermore, exploration in Elminage rarely holds anything more than uncovering fog of war on a map while fighting through semi-random encounters. Simplistic graphics means that you wont be able to uncover an interesting peace of scenery or architechture. The quests, puzzles and etc are also very limited due to game's engine and design compared to wiz8 or w&w. It's still a nice game, but I failed to see how this approach is more elegent when what wiz8, m&m, w&w or rt eob and similar games offer.

 

[jungl]

elminage gothic doesnt really feel like a traditional rpg. Xp and gold for the most part useless and u dont really think about. What there is mainly to grind is good items on lower floors of dungeons. Items that usually lower your ac to that sweet spot where your frontline can tank effortlessly the next dungeon and what have good resist stats like resist behead what you need because advanced classes like lord take forever to get online compared to original.

Its better design focus in gothic cause you get immersed more in dungeon crawling.

 

[PrettyDeadman]

Tying loot to dungeon floors is a more elegant design.

Avoiding grind altogether is a better solution. It gives more meaning and weight to exploration and it saves time for players who know what they are doing (i.e. can get an item they need even if it means avoiding dangerous monsters instead of grinding necessary items from the same dungeon).

In most cases there is little/no reason to grind. By moving forward, you'll eventually find better stuff anyway. Getting top end stuff for a class is nearly the only exception.

It seems so. I go the wrong impression by trying to do one dungeon (2nd) and getting stuck on second "floor". It seems if you jump to other dungeons you can have some progress without need to grind, just by uncovering fog of war there.

 

[aweigh]

we have different opinions about rpgs but is good we can enjoy the game : )

 

[Dorarnae]

whats the best race/class combinations?

edit

just got a 31 roll with a human, made him a lord.
the bad thing is that i made him 35 years old, will i have problems with his age?

It's not that bad, but if you go for postgame is possible to get a bit too old.

There are some traps that reduce your age. aweigh Dorarnae , what are the best spots to get Kiss of the Goddess? I remember there was one dungeon and floor where they were the most common trap. In some floor of the Royal Tomb I think.

For race/class combo they are usually intuitive, not that important. Werebeasts and humans are very flexible. Dwarf clerics and Valkyries,etc.

yeah the tomb is a good place. or just change them to devilish if it becomes a problem.

 

[Dorarnae]

Maybe Lords do become awesome late game. Read: Halfway trough post-game.
Before that... they are simply slow, IMO.

Think a dwarven Valkyrie might be more optimal, but a human will work too.

so its better to start as fighter then multiclass him?

you can still start with a lord but just know they require more exp to lvl up and learn spell much slower.
I'd personally make him dragonewt, would require even more exp to lvl up but at least he would be useful with his breath in the beginning.

 

[razvedchiki]

found a boy at the second lvl of the first dungeon, do i need a summoner to catch and recruit?

 

[Haplo]

Nope. Its not a monster.
But you may need some other class I seem to recall. A Bishop maybe? With minimum level requirement.

Anyway, I'd rather bring a Summoner to the Church when you get there and recruit one of the female ninja Dragonflies. They have like 25% base Behead chance (that further grows with ninja level) AND 35% Charm chance, with small chances to inflict other statuses also.
And are quite easy to catch.
A Redcap from the Tree is a passable replacement till then.

 

[PrettyDeadman]

Is there any reason not to make your first party 6 man dragon party?

 

[Haplo]

They'd suck at trap identification/disarming, secret detection, hiding. Also at resurrecting people.
So at least a roguish-type and a divine type should be from other races IMO.

Think they'd be pretty lousy dedicated mages, too. However could work just fine as hybrid magic users, like samurais, alchemists, summoners.

 

[PrettyDeadman]

My current party is Fighter Dragon, Dwarf Valkyrie, Deilish Brawler, Hotlet Rogue, Bishop Dragon, Mage Dragon.
This party is REALLY powerful on low levels.

 

[Haplo]

My current party is Fighter Dragon, Dwarf Valkyrie, Deilish Brawler, Hotlet Rogue, Bishop Dragon, Mage Dragon.
This party is REALLY powerful on low levels.

Eh, the terrible Piety isn't great for a Bishop. Might have trouble Raising/Resurrecting anyone.
The barely passable Int isn't great for an offensive mage (but maybe he'll multiclass later, then its maybe ok) and also for the bishop.

In general I don't think I'd include a Bishop in my starting party. Much better to learn all divine and/or arcane spells first and later multi to a Bish IMO. Otherwise his progression is glacial.

 

[Jason Liang]

At low levels you can just have your backrow casters take Song of Healing/ Song of Destruction Ex Skills (as opposed to the all Dragonnewt party). Then when you multiclass them switch their ex skill to something more powerful like Magic Essence.

 

[Haplo]

Dragonnewts are pretty much the best martial race, though.