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Encounter design is king

Discussion in 'General RPG Discussion' started by Zanzoken, May 10, 2016.

  1. BBMorti Arcane

    BBMorti
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    Not sure how you manage to miss the word metagamer enough times to type that drivel. My whole point about the wand of sleep was from the perspective of the metagamer, stop being intentionally obtuse or work a bit on your reading comprehension. Reading things before eagerly slamming your hands away at a keyboard makes you look a bit less of a fool, shitslurper.

    Sleep works on 98% of the foes in the game, since it is almost entirely low HD dice trash mobs. How many fucking Golems and Skeleton warriors do you count in the game, compared to goblins, gibberlins, bandits, spiders, kobolds, gnolls, dobbelgangers, ogres, any type of animal (sleep works on them all from bears to wolves to rabbits) etc. Furthermore the minute handful of undeads, including Skeleton Warriors who could even pose a remove threat you can make yourself immune too by use of a usable by any class scroll.
    I can think of three places in the game where I might consider using it, Greater ghouls in Durlags tower/the maze and a crypt where you can pickup a wand of sleep, if you wish it from level 1-2 on some character. Those + the handful of golems in the game, which you kill like flies with boots of speed + a wand of fire are a tiny percentage. Besides those you have a few more it wont work on, like Sarevok or the Deamon. Even greater Basilisks drop to wand of sleep. Add that to your shit in-depth retrospective.

    Nobody is going to agree with me? Nice of the shitlord to speak for everyone. Ask anyone in this 647 pages long thread for people who complete the game without re-loads for starters. Anyone else competent will confirm me, as well, that would be people who aren't you. http://forum.bioware.com/topic/124374-baldurs-gate-1-no-reload-challenge/

    You are overestimating the hit dices of the mobs in BG, try the wand out, you might be shocked.

    I am in no way trying to impress you, I have better things to do than worry about impressing imbeciles. I just clicked through some pages of this thread and saw you endlessly spew one inanity after another, so I figured you might appreciate that tidbit of information with the sleep wand, since you mostly seem to make a point out of being a clueless shithead with an odd attitude of know-it-all, which made my left kidney cringe a bit.
     
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  2. Lilura RPG Codex Dragon Lady

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    There are no goblins in BG, you excitable lil' fool. But yeah, there are lots of mooks in the early going, that's common knowledge on the Codex. They don't "almost entirely" comprise the encounter design and they don't constitute "98%" of the encounter design, though. So yet again, why did you lie?

    I'm a big proponent of the power of Sleep, Blindness, Web etc., but, with every post, you mention more items that are required, and more Sleep-immunes, so it's pretty obvious you're talking out of your ass (there are many more Sleep-immunes, too).

    Go and read my in-depth retrospective if you wanna be elite someday, cuz at it stands you're just a witless ape, and a liar.
     
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  3. BBMorti Arcane

    BBMorti
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    You remind me of a Jehovas withness I once knew. She also had the tendency to keep repeating the same nonesense over and over again, hoping it would magically become truth. You can keep denying the wand of sleep solves most of the game for you, it wont change reality.

    I am a 6'4 tall guy so you must be one massive hog of a lady since you keep calling me 'lil, calling me 'lil or a liar doesn't make you any more correct or that little in-depth retrospective of yours.

    Oh and about those Goblins http://baldursgate.wikia.com/wiki/Goblin
     
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  4. Lilura RPG Codex Dragon Lady

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    Yes, I'm sure you are 6'4 in height, fully ripped etc. But why are you so butthurt about my retrospective, and why can't you cite one that's superior?

    Uh yeah. That's... BG2. :roll:
     
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  5. octavius Prestigious Gentleman Arcane

    octavius
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    That's probably the worst bullshit I've read in this sub-forum.
     
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  6. Malpercio Arcane

    Malpercio
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    I read the word "balance" with April's from TLJ voice, is p. funny.

    By the Balance!

    It's not even that linear anyway.

    There are two ways to enter Spellhold. The fish town is completely optional. The underdark is a massive area with some optional dungeons (Mindflayer and Beholders strongholds) and a lot of side-content (Elemental portals, Portal-spell prison, Ust Natha side-quests)

    The only part I consider truly linear is Bodhi's Lair---> Suldanessellar --->Hell, but what the hell, this game has to progress the fucking plot at some point.
     
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  7. Lilura RPG Codex Dragon Lady

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    Probably the biggest bald-faced liar I've ever seen on the Codex.

    "All encounters can be made trivial with one item, the Wand of Sleep. ALL".
    "Sleep works on 98% of the foes in the campaign. A statistic I totally didn't grossly exaggerate or pull out of my anal orifice."
    "There are only three places in the campaign where the Wand of Sleep is useless. Oh, and maybe scores of others, too."
    "You will wipe the floor with the Wand of Sleep. Btw, Sleep works on rabbits!"
    "Durlag's Tower is still beaten by the use of sleep charge spam. It's filled with xvarts, gibberlings, tasloi and kobolds; not mid-high HD foes and others that are immune to or easily resist its effects, didn't ya know?"
    "The wand of sleep solves most of the game for you."
    "I'm 6'4 in height. You do believe me, right?"

    :retarded:
     
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  8. Malpercio Arcane

    Malpercio
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    I'm not sure what's the argument here? Because:

    - You don't get most of these items until midway game-beat some of the "major" questlines. Yes, some of them like Robe of Vecna and the Shield of Balduran (both from come from extra merchants, eh)
    are accessible asap, but don't tell me you can break the game with the Robe of Vecna or the Shield of Balduran. Celestial Fury is the only one truly broken that can be accessed asap, but I seriously doubt any new player who wanders by accident into the Celestial Fury building is going to have easy time dealing with one of the harder encounter in the game. And if they do...

    - A lot of these items come from hard fights. You need to beat a fucking evil dragon for Carsomyr. The already mentioned Celestial Fury is behind a very tough group of enemies that will most likely wipe you if you run into them by accident. Crom Faeyr needs to be forged. This is one of the aspect that made BG2 itemization so good. A lot of powerful, unique items are behind very tough-endgame fights. Or behind a lot of gold. A lot of today games fail by giving you random trash with % defense and damage if you beat some of the world strongest foes.

    - Some of them necessitate of a particular setup to be effective. You mention Staff of the Ram+6 Kensai/Thief, yes, because I'm going to know that on my first playthought. The Celestial Fury is a fucking KATANA. It's not like you can load everything you find on CHARNAME and Minsc and call it a day. Of course I may do that in further playthought, but why would I do replay the game if itemization is not fun? The fact that people like to come up with so many different combinations to "break" the game is a testament on how much BG2 itemization and encounter design stuck with people. Items and encounters are not forgotten, they are not random trash.

    - This is a mid-high level D&D campaign. If we don't get tons of magic items now, then when? It's not like we spend 90% of the campaign fighting wolves. Enemies include some of the most powerful foes in D&D bestiary, you fight golems, elements, high-level vampires, lich and demi-lich, dragons, high-level groups of foes and high-level mages. They give you powerful items because you are fighting powerful foes.
     
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  9. Lilura RPG Codex Dragon Lady

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    Call me a stick in the mud, but BG2 itemization is grotesquely generous compared to its predecessor.

    A few points:

    -Extra merchants are in the final, offical patch by BioWare (well, Deidre, at least); and in the GoG version, too. It's been like this for over a decade.
    -Most ppl are gonna roll with a six person party, so there is almost always someone who can wield/wear the items. You speak of first playthroughs; well, maiden runs are not solos, so slap them on someone.
    -Not being proficient in a weapon does not mean you can't wield it. THAC0 is already low in mid-high lvl campaigns. F.e, You don't need proficiency in warhammers to wield Crom in the off-hand for Titan strength. You don't need prof in scims to wield Belm, off-hand, for +1 ApR. You don't need prof in flails to wield Easthaven, off-hand, for +20% DR. Plus warriors get 17 weapon profs over the course of the campaign, so they are not confined to one or two wields; especially not companions who cannot Grandmaster, which is most of them (only Mazzy, Korgan and Sarevok can GM, and GM was nerfed, anyway).
    -Robe of Vecna lets you dominate almost straight off the bat. The reduced casting time means you break mage duels. Let's be real, it in fact breaks encounters in which mages dominate, which is almost all. Weren't contingencies and sequencers enough?
    -Vhailor Helm gives self-simulacrum by Chapter 2, when you can afford it. That's normally after completing one sidequest. Flail of Ages, Celestial Fury, Gnasher, Stonefire, Frostreaver, Blackblood, Firetooth, Rhynn +4, Belm, Dak'kon's Zerth, Easthaven and Harmony are found/bought early. I've probably only named half of the good wields, too.
    -Amulet of Power bestows immunity to lvl drain. Gaxx to poison and disease. Blanket immunities are bad design; the player should be forced to use spell-based wards, kit special abilities (e.g, Berserk) or restoration scrolls and other cures; else, they are rendered useless.

    The others are mid to end-game wields and some are crafted in late SoA or are found, and upgraded, in ToB.

    The vorpal and other on-hit effects trigger often due to 10 ApR, and that's just OP.

    Compare with BG:

    (Not saying BG doesn't have OP itemization, btw - Detonation Arrows & Wands, f.e - but I've criticized them in my retrospective.)

    Max of 4 ApR. Weapons enchanted to +2 with a few +3 wields found deep in Durlag's Tower (and one in Ulgoth's Beard - a quarterstaff). Off-hand I remember only a few of these have on-hit effects: Varscona, Ashideena (both mild) and DoV (the most powerful wield in BG due to stacking poison).
    Best armor is full plate. Yep, just plain old full plate and a Ring of Protection +2 is better than enchanted FP, none of which bestow ele resists.
    Best shield is Large Shield +2. No blanket wards; and it's found deep in Durlag's Tower.
    No Strength belts (only GoOS for 18/00), almost no MR gear, no +ApR gauntlets or wields, no regen gear (the only way to get regen in BG is for a dwarf who can get 20 Con), no DR gear, no casting time reduction gear, no superior potions of healing (quaffing these can keep a grunt alive against even the Ravager), only charge-based blanket negative status protection etc.

    To get many of these items you also have to overcome lethal encounters, which are - relatively speaking - just as lethal as the BG2 encounters (low lvl RNG and not having as many options at your disposal).
     
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  10. BBMorti Arcane

    BBMorti
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    The No-reload thread I linked gives more than 600 pages of proof. Being as bad, or worse, at the game as Lilura will make many things seem 'bullshit', that are easy to pull off for normal functioning individuals.

    Yes, the sleep wand makes most of the game trivial. You being a butt-hurt baddie doesn't change that, nor does your cringe-worthy attempt at being sarcastic.
     
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  11. Ninjerk Arcane

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    All these years later, people care enough to flame each other over Baldur's Gate. :lol:

    Tell me that's not a classic.
     
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  12. Orobis Arcane Sychophantic Noob

    Orobis
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    Yep. It's just further testimony to the greatness that is the BG series. Love it or hate it, you cannot deny the effect it had on the industry.
     
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  13. Orobis Arcane Sychophantic Noob

    Orobis
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    What exactly am i going to learn from your blog? Am i going to come to some great epiphany and suddenly realise: "OMG! i have been so blind! That crazy broad/dude/tranny Lilura was right! BG2 was actually one of the worst games ever made cause weapons are overpowered and it's linear after chapter 3! I need to re-think my whole life! Thanks crazy broad/tranny/dude Lilura i am now enlightened."

    I gave you the benefit of the doubt in my drunken rambling post that yes BG2 is far from a perfect game but there is a lot it does right. Please explain to me the point of these discussions. what is your logic/reasoning to all of this?. What is the overall point your trying to make here?
     
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  14. ZagorTeNej Arcane

    ZagorTeNej
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    Actually, I pretty much stop worrying about dying completely once I get PA but regardless none of the BG2 items you mentioned make you invincible either, heck they don't even come close to bridging the gap between any sort of caster class combination (which is where true power lies in BG2) and a pure melee one.

    -Most of BG2 items you mentioned require different parts from all over the world, you can't get them without going through a large chunk of the game content.

    -Tubes are pretty plentiful considering the scope of the game, you'll have no trouble whatsoever scraping 3 of them.

    -Final PA stage is pretty much useless (considering I can freely switch between 3 modes in combat), 8 Lore has other much better uses for it (such as using machines to boost stats and weakening end boss so you can paste him).

    If you're getting hit a lot with a combat focused char in AoD past Teron you're playing it wrong. Regarding those perceived disadvantages, they pale in comparison to the huge benefits (big stat bonuses, high DR with nearly no defense penalty, regeneration), especially for a dodge build.

    In the context of your complaint about BG2's overpowered gear sure they do (if you have a decent grasp of the systems), more so than Crom Faeyr/Flail of Ages/Celestial Fury do in the latter for a vanilla melee class (that can still get pummeled by a random dragon or a lich) actually. Rendering challenge obsolete in BG2 is achieved through casters (that have an answer for every situation basically), not gear.
     
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  15. ZagorTeNej Arcane

    ZagorTeNej
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    Wait what? Perma-haste items?

    Almost inclined to agree, not a fan of BG1's dungeon design on the whole but Durlag Tower is sweeet. Interesting background story, lethal traps, excellent variety of enemies (party vs party, elemental challenge rooms, invisible backstabbing monsters, good boss fight etc.), decent loot, good art direction etc. IIRC you could actually get closed-in/trapped if you tried to rest on some levels. Best IE dungeon, I'd say.
     
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  16. Lurker King Self-Ejected The Real Fanboy

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    ZagorTeNej I think that the difference is that in AoD you have to master the system in order to survive. If you survive Teron, you can survive the rest of the game. It’s only hard to die if you have a combat focused character and mastered the system, not because the special items are game breaking. It’s not as if you are going to die all the time without them, because what truly matter is whether you have the right stats and understood the system. The system is tough, but fair. If you learn it, you can beat it. None of that applies to BG2. Never mind AD&D rules, you can railroad the entire game like a buffoon, just clicking in things like a one trick pony and showered with an overabundance of magical items. Sometimes you even carry unused overpowered items because you feel sorry to throw them away. What a waste.
     
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  17. Space Insect Arcane

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    If you didn't have a clue about any AD&D rules or any mechanics of the game, how would you know what is OP? How would you know which weapon parts you should actually save and which you should buy? How would you know which spells are incredibly OP and that casters become gods near the end of the game? I certaintly don't think that you can beat BG2 by just selecting all your characters and then clicking attack like you seem to believe works.
     
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  18. octavius Prestigious Gentleman Arcane

    octavius
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    The funny thing about the BG games is that those players who are experts at them are also those who dislike the games the most.
     
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  19. Lilura RPG Codex Dragon Lady

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    Thanks for the admission (that there are no write-ups superior to mine). The lil' liar admitted it, too, by attacking my retrospective without citing a superior one, when prompted.

    Are you new to the Codex? BG2 is madly overrated here, even by those who haven't played BG (or have only played BG in the BG2 engine, using Tutu, BGT or EE - which is the same as not playing BG). Durlag's Tower, historically, has had little love here, or elsewhere. And yet, it represents the best of BioWare, along with the Aurora toolset for NWN.

    We haven't even got to the worst of BG2. Someone just happened to pull the critics up on their itemization concerns. BG2's encounter design is trivialized in worse ways than that.

    Items that bestow perma-haste. You don't need me to list them or tell you why they suck so much, do you? Party can outrun foes, party can easily backtrack out of a dungeon to rest/restock/recompose party, haste reducing the tedium of doing so. Shit design.

    Almost? Not sure how anyone with good taste can disagree. Anyway, the lead writer of BG answered a few of my Qs and gave insights into DT and riddlecraft, here. It's a good read.
     
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  20. Zetor Arcane

    Zetor
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    Well, if we're looking at it like that, I didn't find Durlag's Tower that difficult either (and yes, I played the original BG-TOTSC, blind) combat-wise... the traps and overall setup were cool, though. My recollection from 16+ years ago has my teenaged self spamming arrows of detonation that basically mowed down almost everything in there by themselves (the chessboard fight was particularly hilarious). Arrows of dispelling for the few tricky enemies including aec-letec.
     
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  21. Lilura RPG Codex Dragon Lady

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    Misspent youth.
     
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  22. Orobis Arcane Sychophantic Noob

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    [​IMG]

    [​IMG]
    Joined: Aug 8, 2015

    So that's it? that's what all the hubbub is about? To kick BG2 down a notch and bring BG1 up one? wow ok, You go girl. [​IMG]

    [​IMG]
     
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  23. Malpercio Arcane

    Malpercio
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    I can BS on it. Extreme BS.

    My 10 years old self who played BG2 for the first time barely manage to pull himself together, I even remember giving all my gold away to the Black Dragon. The game just throws to much different shits and situations at you that you just can't click on things and hope for the best.

    Today I have a solid understanding of D&D ruleset, what magics do and when to use them, and I can easily beat the game strongest foes with the right buffs and debuffs.
     
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  24. ZagorTeNej Arcane

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    Well they increase movement speed, don't give you the full benefit of the haste spell. There aren't that many in BG2 (off the top of my head, you can get 3 not including Watcher Keep), only in ToB you can equip the whole party.

    I agree that Durlag Tower represents the apex of Bioware when it comes do dungeon design, disagree with the notion that one segment of the game is by itself enough to put it over the sequel. That said, there are a number of other things I prefer in BG1 like the itemization, exploration, lethality of non-magic combat, character sprites, inventory breaking pause and resting only healing one point (unless you're using a variety of inn rooms which cost money), low-key plot which for the majority of the game revolves around standard "Group of adventurers investigate local troubles" which I've always liked, the main villain and his motivations etc.

    Interesting read. To what capacity was he involved in the sequel when it comes to writing? I do think BG1 tone is quite a bit different compared to the sequel with the latter's much more epic story, romances and similar.
     
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  25. Carrion Arcane Patron

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    There's nothing that even remotely compares to it in BG1 either. It is not at all representative of the main game, and it's memorable precisely because of how superior it is to anything else in BG1 or its expansion. For every level of Durlag's Tower you'll find a Nashkel Mines, Firewine Ruins (yeah, they fucking suck, sue me) or some other dreadfully repetitive and uninteresting slog that doesn't even begin to compare to any major dungeon you find in BG2.
     
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