Europa Universalis IV

[Karmapowered]

For some reason, this thread reminds me of the same kind of argument I've had with retards people about Obsidian's early practices in matters of delivering buggy games (see NWN2, but not only).

QA is such an insignificant concept, plus it's expensive. Bugs would be fixed in time anyway, just google for a work-around or wait for players to patch the game, etc.

And I was wrong, it wasn't 1990, it was even earlier :

Life used to be good.

 

[Saark]

Theres currently a stream up over on twitch with Q&A via chat, showing off the EU4/CK2 Converter, it'll most likely be up there as a VoD aswell.

http://www.twitch.tv/paradoxinteractive

First Part: http://www.twitch.tv/paradoxinteractive/b/438261345
Q&A starts at about ~53:00. Amazing stuff.

 

[Luzur]

well i dont bother much whatever they do, i just learn the game on my own, like i used to do back in the C64 days with pirated games (you are not the only one that walked those hard streets, karmabro.), never failed me yet.

if i need help on some detail, fine i'll look it up on the 'net, otherwise i'll check the control setup to see what keys are set to what action.

 

[Karmapowered]

If anyone, YOU must remember the times where reading the manual short before calling it a day provided for as much joy as playing the game itself during the afternoon.

I knew nothing about submarines, about battle-ships, about modern jets and Cessna's (thanks Chuck!), about Viet-nam or World War 2, etc., etc., before playing these many games (EDIT: and reading their manuals).

Paradox is missing a huge opportunity here.

Googling stuff is just so insipid in comparison, not to mention unreliable.

 

[Zeriel]

Wow, actual Roman Empire in EU4 with proper flags and its own ideas is gonna be crazy as all get-out. History going off the wheels like whoa.

 

[Corporate_Jew_Master]

If one group will always stay consistent in their shenanigans it's the Romanboo crowd.

 

[Delterius]

If anything, the inclusion of Best Rome means Paradox averted disaster, nay, the apocalypse. In a more cost effective way than the new Black Isle could ever hope to, no less.

 

[Zeriel]

To be fair, the converter just seems all sorts of strange. I don't think they intend it as a serious thing, considering stuff like converting 850 Old Gods save games into 1441 EU starts. Plus, as much as I like the idea of actual Roman Empire, gameplay wise it's just garbage. The only thing that makes Byzantium interesting in terms of actually playing it is that it is at a disadvantage. Start with tons of territory, and it's pure tedium. LARPing can only keep things fun for so long when there is zero challenge.

Just realized: converter could bring Aztec "Empire" into Europe. Guess aboriginophiles may finally have something fun to toy with.

 

[Vaarna_Aarne]

It's still something to spice up the replayability of both CK2 and EU3.

 

[Saark]

To be fair, the converter just seems all sorts of strange. I don't think they intend it as a serious thing, considering stuff like converting 850 Old Gods save games into 1441 EU starts.

Its really only a limitation set by the starting date of EU4 I think. You could play 600 years worth of CK2 to form your empire, then convert it when CK2 ends to sow havoc all over the rest of the world for another ~500 years. You can form a giant blob until Mr. Genghis arrives, convert and start playing as the mongol khan himself to raid your old empire. You can basically create an alternate history yourself, at any point of the game. Seeing how it comes freely by simply pre-ordering EU4, I just cant complain.

 

[Average Manatee]

I started playing HoI3 soon after its release (vanilla). I used theater levels effectively when people were still struggling with that concept on the forums, thanks to my prior experience with HoI2 and other war-games. I would have liked to find serious/in-depth info about supply management, air and naval operations, etc., elsewhere than on a Wiki and forums fed and managed by the users of the game. It's easy to win the game against a largely incompetent AI, even if you don't understand half of what you're doing. It's a whole another matter if you go against a human player, or if you wish to be perfectionist like me, and master the intrisics. That's where a good manual from an official source makes a difference, hmm, no, actually becomes essential.

I'd say that is where a manual becomes useless. The game's tooltips are (almost) always up to date and describe everything if you look hard enough. Written word less so.

I mean stuff like this:

I couldn't figure why I wasn't getting clerks in Vicky 2. So I fired up the tutorial to see if there was anything basic I was missing. Turns out I already knew how to push buttons and read, so it was no help.

Turned to the wiki and find out there is a minimum literacy to get clerks.

Click the pop screen, click on the high-detail view for your workers. It will flat out say that you get some huge malus to clerk promotion if the literacy is less than 40% or whatever. And while you look around that screen you'll probably learn a half-dozen other things to improve the way you play. I know I did. Stupid wiki said that 2% clergy was enough, but if you take 5 mins to look at that screen you'll see that 4% is optimal for literacy gain. Lo an behold, I go for 4% clergy and even shit-tarded Arabs and Asians can have 100% literacy around the 80s and 90s.

There's really startlingly little information in Paradox games that isn't described somewhere. Most of the hidden information is highly-specific data that you wouldn't have in a manual anyway. Like needing to take Patron of Art as non-western nations in EU3 to westernize quickly, you'd never find that in a manual unless they exhaustively listed every event in the game, which would be A. completely ridiculous to the point that no one would read it, and B. entirely inaccurate within a few months of patches or an expansion.

 

[tuluse]

The game itself tells you that 2% clergymen is ideal when you mouse over the tech box at the top

Edit: this is for making tech points, more clergymen will education your populace faster

 

[Average Manatee]

Yeah, this is an example of how you can learn everything from the in-game tooltips while guides, wikis and manuals all are at various levels of inaccuracy. The wiki I read stated that encouraging clergy above 2% was useless, when in fact it's one of the most important things in the game for almost all nations

EDIT: kpi-th post.

 

[Whisky]

They should have the wiki in game like the Civilopedia.

That would actually be a damn good idea. I've never had trouble jumping into a Paradox game and learning as I go, but for some people it is an issue. Plus the Civilopedia was generally well organized and even good to read when you're familiar with much of the concepts.

I'm actually really surprised they haven't done this.



Aaaaaand I've gotta finish off my Brittania (Lead by Norse Scots) game before EUIV comes out so I can save transfer. Granted, from what I gather you can transfer at any date, but I'd like to be genuine about it.

 

[XenomorphII]

The converter could be lots of fun. Build a massive Rome in CK, convert, then load up as some Asian/African/New World country, and start preparing to just try to survive against Rome. Would make for one hell of a challenge if the AI can keep it together.

 

[KoolNoodles]

To be fair, the converter just seems all sorts of strange. I don't think they intend it as a serious thing, considering stuff like converting 850 Old Gods save games into 1441 EU starts. Plus, as much as I like the idea of actual Roman Empire, gameplay wise it's just garbage. The only thing that makes Byzantium interesting in terms of actually playing it is that it is at a disadvantage. Start with tons of territory, and it's pure tedium. LARPing can only keep things fun for so long when there is zero challenge.

Just realized: converter could bring Aztec "Empire" into Europe. Guess aboriginophiles may finally have something fun to toy with.

Would love to fuck up some Euros as a massive blob of advanced Aztecs, not gonna lie.

 

[Average Manatee]

You can already fuck europe up from the Aztec start in EU3. Doing it by way of Sunset Invasion in CK2 is just cheating.

Funny thing is that once you westernize as the Aztecs or other natives in EU3 you have arguably the best bonuses, best starting position, best tech rate, etc.

 

[XenomorphII]

You can already fuck europe up from the Aztec start in EU3. Doing it by way of Sunset Invasion in CK2 is just cheating.

Funny thing is that once you westernize as the Aztecs or other natives in EU3 you have arguably the best bonuses, best starting position, best tech rate, etc.

It has become extremely hard to pull off with the most recent expansion and patches (the manpower changes make it so that everyone lower than Muslim tech group suffer terrible manpower losses to rebels that can be very hard to destroy).

 

[KoolNoodles]

You can already fuck europe up from the Aztec start in EU3. Doing it by way of Sunset Invasion in CK2 is just cheating.

Funny thing is that once you westernize as the Aztecs or other natives in EU3 you have arguably the best bonuses, best starting position, best tech rate, etc.

I don't know how vanilla is, but Magna Mundi and Meiu were extremely difficult. I played as Aztec and Inca multiple times, and even if literally everything went right up until First Contact, only luck would sort of save me, not to mention save-scumming. It's pretty brutal. -3 Stability hits every 4 years, land units a half dozen or more techs behind, manpower shortages for no reason(even when Smallpox hit historically, manpower was not lacking for the Aztecs, it just fucked with their politics). Even with a 10-1 advantage in troops it would be hard to defend(realistically it should be much more if Spain etc. can't get native allies).

I'm just hoping EU4 gets mesoamerican civs at least a little right. It's really quite fascinating once you know the history. And considering the impact they have even to today it boggles my mind as to why they never get much work done.

 

[Average Manatee]

You can already fuck europe up from the Aztec start in EU3. Doing it by way of Sunset Invasion in CK2 is just cheating.

Funny thing is that once you westernize as the Aztecs or other natives in EU3 you have arguably the best bonuses, best starting position, best tech rate, etc.

It has become extremely hard to pull off with the most recent expansion and patches (the manpower changes make it so that everyone lower than Muslim tech group suffer terrible manpower losses to rebels that can be very hard to destroy).

You can avoid rebels and become VERY strong before the euros arrive with good play. Basically only take territory that missions give you cores on (these are pretty easy to get usually, no shitty "build a navy" or "improve relations" shit when you are Native Americans). Rush Government 4 in the meantime and start colonizing. While colonies build up, switch to Patron of Art and milk it for the slider switches. You should have no rebels unless you have overextension (shouldn't happen if you've taken lots of cores), bad sliders (can't really avoid this since you need to westernize), AND a poor leader all at once. Though you might have a very low (2%) revolt risk with 2 of those, hire a good advisor and spread troops around. Aztecs have the decision for huge constant culture boost, they can easily afford 6-star advisors everywhere.

You can already fuck europe up from the Aztec start in EU3. Doing it by way of Sunset Invasion in CK2 is just cheating.

Funny thing is that once you westernize as the Aztecs or other natives in EU3 you have arguably the best bonuses, best starting position, best tech rate, etc.

I don't know how vanilla is, but Magna Mundi and Meiu were extremely difficult. I played as Aztec and Inca multiple times, and even if literally everything went right up until First Contact, only luck would sort of save me, not to mention save-scumming. It's pretty brutal. -3 Stability hits every 4 years, land units a half dozen or more techs behind, manpower shortages for no reason(even when Smallpox hit historically, manpower was not lacking for the Aztecs, it just fucked with their politics). Even with a 10-1 advantage in troops it would be hard to defend(realistically it should be much more if Spain etc. can't get native allies).

I'm just hoping EU4 gets mesoamerican civs at least a little right. It's really quite fascinating once you know the history. And considering the impact they have even to today it boggles my mind as to why they never get much work done.

Never played Natives in those those, but Natives should have basically 0 stability cost thanks to their religion and government and decisions. In fact for a long time they will actually have provinces that cost negative stability to own. And if your sliders are right (and your leader meets requirements) you can fully westernize instantly as soon as Euros come due to the low stability cost. From there you'll have huge tech bonuses that quickly make you rise to their level (don't fight them and try to ally them early on of course), and later the fact that your provinces are the most valuable in the game means you pretty quickly out tech europe itself.

 

[KoolNoodles]

Yeah probably so. I never played Aztecs in vanilla EU3 because I figured they got everything wrong. In those mods, you don't gain stability that quickly, at least not enough to make a huge difference. Maybe get to 0 or +1 when the next stability hit goes into effect. Westernization is also a slower, more agonizing process, and the AI tends to be much more aggressive. I had allied with Spain when they first landed, with near 200 relations....a year later they DoWed me because of the religion causus belli. Unfortunate, and annoying. I won the war, barely, because of transport issues for them I assume(and they were at war with the French). I think they lost nearly 20-25k troops. Didn't stop them from resuming the conflict after a couple years, while I was languishing in negative stability and lack of manpower(!). Something about that gold, they just can't let it go.....

 

[RedScum]

http://forum.paradoxplaza.com/forum...oper-diary-42-The-Crusader-Kings-II-Converter

More info about the converter

 

[Average Manatee]

Yeah probably so. I never played Aztecs in vanilla EU3 because I figured they got everything wrong. In those mods, you don't gain stability that quickly, at least not enough to make a huge difference. Maybe get to 0 or +1 when the next stability hit goes into effect. Westernization is also a slower, more agonizing process, and the AI tends to be much more aggressive. I had allied with Spain when they first landed, with near 200 relations....a year later they DoWed me because of the religion causus belli. Unfortunate, and annoying. I won the war, barely, because of transport issues for them I assume(and they were at war with the French). I think they lost nearly 20-25k troops. Didn't stop them from resuming the conflict after a couple years, while I was languishing in negative stability and lack of manpower(!). Something about that gold, they just can't let it go.....

Are the events you are talking about the "resist westernization" ones? You don't actually have to take those, just take the resist option and you can still do all but the last, hardest step. Then you can do the last step the instant the resisting westernization modifier disappears, before you get another event. At least this is how it worked in vanilla.

I've seen the incessant AI DoW of New Worldians. Not sure why it happens. My first game basically everyone in Europe would DoW me at a certain point even though I was massively stronger than all of Europe combined by the midgame. On my second game Europe never attacked at all. I'd assume it was because I played much better and was much stronger by the time the Europeans showed up, but the first game seems to disprove that given how little the Euros cared about me smashing their shit in every war.

 

[Grinolf]

He forgot about Plutocracy, but Paradox already published that idea earlier. Of course, it can be not a final version, but overall it looks much more balanced, than in EU3. Only offensive and innovative looks clearly superior for me, than others ideas.

Click the pop screen, click on the high-detail view for your workers. It will flat out say that you get some huge malus to clerk promotion if the literacy is less than 40% or whatever. And while you look around that screen you'll probably learn a half-dozen other things to improve the way you play. I know I did. Stupid wiki said that 2% clergy was enough, but if you take 5 mins to look at that screen you'll see that 4% is optimal for literacy gain.

Problem there, that detailed POP screen isn't the place, where new player going to look after loading the game. He may even not know, that he can look there, despite plenty of useful information in that place. But on most visible space for information about literacy, you can see "education efficiency" which can tell you exactly nothing.
Speaking about Paradox strange interface decisions, "important character" button in CK 2 was hidden very well some times ago. I knew that it exist somewhere only from message setting. And still I couldn't find it without looking on Paradox forums. And you need that button for a comfort game.

Like needing to take Patron of Art as non-western nations in EU3 to westernize quickly

Not only for that, but also for event, that give cheap Art Academy or University even before acquiring tech, that unlocks them. These two hidden events put PotA from "it's ok, but I better pick Military Drill" to on of the top starting ideas. And I find the fact, that you can't even suppose how good that idea is, without looking into the code or reading the guide, pretty frustrating.

 

[Renegen]

Damn Quill had to spend 90 minutes discussing a few national ideas, it was so tiring I just checked the wiki. Though he has some good qualities, I easily give up on his LPs, don't know why he was selected by Paradox.

Are you sure Plutocracy is going to be included? So far there's 5 national ideas per theme, but if you include Plutocracy that's 6 for military, a bit strange. For me, I find offensive and economic superior to the others. I also have high hopes for Espionage.

God I can't believe this game is only 2 weeks away.