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Europa Universalis IV

Joined
Mar 3, 2010
Messages
9,495
Location
Italy
mess? i almost finished a venice playthrough and the game felt almost exactly the same, with some new event here and there and a wealth of unused new features.

like the privateers. you DON'T want to attract any more attention from the big guys if you aren't one yourself and if you already joined the club you don't really need some extra change.
 

Mefi

Prophet
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Joined
Apr 7, 2005
Messages
1,364
Location
waiting for a train at Perdido Street Station
Westernisation process changes/consequences, AE penalties and reduction are all over the place and bounce from 'do a WC' to 'don't dare expand' again with the latest beta patch, we're back to rebellions upon rebellions, the whole rival mechanic is underthought and enforces stagnation, the coalition/diplomatic mechanics are improved in some places but at the cost of enforcing love-ins amongst AI nations who you'd ideally want to at least have the odd border scuffle but that needs the rival system sorting out before it can be addressed, policies are a cool idea which have yet to find a suitable cost within game, AI nations still fail to upgrade their provinces to any reasonable degree...

In gameplay terms, these are some core mechanics and the big new ideas for the series which haven't really been nailed down yet. Not a surprise, it's Paradox, it happens, it should get patched or hacked into something ultimately adequate (though I felt the last couple of patches for EU3 actually weren't that beneficial for gameplay). But it's messy at the moment and doesn't encourage you to sit down and have a good extended play through.

On the plus side, the only real technical niggle is that the ingame save process can still be a lottery and I'm not convinced that's as much down to Steam as it is Paradox if saving to the steam cloud and you don't have to do that now.
 

Mortmal

Arcane
Joined
Jun 15, 2009
Messages
9,591
Personally I love EUIV but Wealth of Nations looks like a immense mess from what I've been hearing. I think I'm going to stop here, at least until Paradox fixes all the issues. Hell, in CKII I stopped at 2.0.4 because I'm afraid Rajas of India will slowdown my game even more (this pc has shit RAM) and also, bugs.

Its mostly fixed now, revolts are tolerable now and agression decreases faster in time . Its worth getting it now , theres a few improvements, like ideas combinations giving policies, some interface improvement, but nothing groundbreaking or really game changing . As for privateers i find no use of them either, if you have trade nodes , well you will use your ships as usual, if you dont then you are a small guy who dont want to give extra casus belli to great powers...

Steam cloud sucks too, had to be said.
 

Mortmal

Arcane
Joined
Jun 15, 2009
Messages
9,591
Personally I love EUIV but Wealth of Nations looks like a immense mess from what I've been hearing. I think I'm going to stop here, at least until Paradox fixes all the issues. Hell, in CKII I stopped at 2.0.4 because I'm afraid Rajas of India will slowdown my game even more (this pc has shit RAM) and also, bugs.

Its mostly fixed now, revolts are tolerable now and agression decreases faster in time . Its worth getting it now , theres a few improvements, like ideas combinations giving policies, some interface improvement, but nothing groundbreaking or really game changing . As for privateers i find no use of them either, if you have trade nodes , well you will use your ships as usual, if you dont then you are a small guy who dont want to give extra casus belli to great powers...

Steam cloud sucks too, had to be said.

Non-western nations weren't nerfed in this one? I'm a big sucker for the underdog, I don't like the possibility Pdox is listering to the "Europeans should effortlessely overrun everyone" crowd of tards.

No more nerfed than usual it seems,but european armies still roll over them. France seems even more powerful than before like unstoppable, probably cause of exceptional generals. Muscovy blob up really fast. I am trying for the great khan achievement with golden horde, i dont know how its manageable to take down muscoy , especially when it ally denmark with sweden under personal union.
Playing minors is a lot more stressfull for sure.

Oh yes and westernization seems harder, you have to reform governement first for horde, and as other muslim countries it seems to take longer as well.
 
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Joined
Jan 7, 2012
Messages
15,511
All non-western nations were heavily nerfed in income due to the way paradox changed production income. Before it was something like 1 + 0.05 * base tax, now its something like 0.2 * base tax, which means that the 95% of non-west nations entirely composted of 1 or 2 base tax provinces produce far less, while France and shit are nearly unchanged. This also affects their trade value since trade comes from production.

There's also the fact that the new westernization change is far, far slower if you are larger. We're talking taking 150 years if you are a big nation.

Also the penalties are harder.

Also you don't get western units, you just get the western tech school.

Also you only get western tech school after you finish, not when you start, so those 10s or 100s of years will be years that you are still paying 1500 MP to tech.

Also once you westernize you'll only get -10% tech cost from being way behind the rest of the world rather than -25%.

Arguably some of the changes make sense but for the most part its just arbitrary crap made for stupid reasons that they didn't seem to test or justify. Like the last change was literally done just because some players in Europe would wait and stock points for a -5% bonus after someone else pushed the tech button first (totally reasonable, this is why push-button-for-tech is dumb). So in order to prevent western europeans from saving a whole 10 MP on a tech by waiting a few months, they penalized westernizing nations by thousands of MP when they need to catch up.

Separate from the westernization changes, the whole thing with AE being drastically OP then UP after every patch/hotfix combo just goes to show that while AE was theoretically a better idea than Infamy, balancing it out and making it work properly is a hell of a task. One that Paradox still has yet to really nail. Kind of silly to play a game when crucial elements of balance change by a factor of 3 on a whim.

They pumped-up France? It seemed ok before the patch, it was quite realistic to me rather than the overpowered BBB monster from EUIII. Unified France by 1500 in EUIII has more troops than in it had pre-French Revolution, it was too damn ridiculous.
I do remember Muscowy was already too strong before, is it even more cheesy?

France mainly got buffed up by the fact that vassal annexations are mega quick now. Ridiculously quick, like 3 or 4 months for those small guys. The penalty is you pay Diplomatic power, but hell if anyone really cared about that stuff other than the colonizers.
 
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Mefi

Prophet
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Joined
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waiting for a train at Perdido Street Station
agression decreases faster in time.

Pulled back to tooltip 2.6 reduction with latest beta, which is where it was before it got increased the patch before. Even though they've tucked the beta thread away in the tech forum for the moment, the complaints about it are already mounting. Agree with Average Manatee's point that balancing such a change is a real pita, know from experience on trying to fix CK back in ye olde days prior to DV never mind CK2, but Paradox are going to have to bite the bullet on which direction the game is taking at some point and potentially lose out on sales as a result.
 

Xeon

Augur
Joined
Apr 9, 2013
Messages
1,858
I am playing Ottomans and Golden Hordes and a little bit of England.

Otomans I think it plays the same, with 1.6.1 AE goes down pretty fast so not much worries from coalitions. The only thing is I no longer have any allies because of them getting -200 from wanting all my provinces. I managed to take one of Spain's provinces while fighting Venice and was able to get back all of Aragon's lands. Also got back all of the provinces for Ukraine, Novgorod and Persia.

Played a little bit with the Golden Hordes I attacked Kazan at the start and took Samara for the gold and I was getting a pretty good income from it for the mercs, I also got the gold mine from Georgia but barely seeing any income from it because of nationalist. managed to beat down Muscovy and take a few provinces while he was busy fighting Lithuania. Allying Timurids currently just in case I fight the Ottomans.

So far France feels like he is expanding faster, He took lands from HRE and from Spain, I tried playing as England and win the PU with him so not having to fight again but got massacred by him, Got lucky tho and got the event that lets you choose the 6,3,3 heir with Alexander and Caesar and someone else can't remember.

Edit:
Westernization takes so long as the Ottomans, 150 years or something. I don't know whats the benefit is or what is the point if I don't get better units.

Golden Hord run went under too. Some people on reddit are suggesting to use a lot of cavalry units which I tried to do kinda, pretty damn expensive but still was pretty much destroyed by Nogai who brought Crimea to lead and who brought Ottomans who ended up leading I guess or something and Timurid not joining and breaking his alliance with me and Muscovy later attacking. I had a pretty good start tho. No luck with Mongolia.
 
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Mefi

Prophet
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Joined
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Messages
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waiting for a train at Perdido Street Station
Golden Horde/Mogolia games are tough unless you're willing to push every little advantage. I get bored with having to wait for a pretender revolt to take over every other leader or so, but I'll finish off a Great Khan game at some point. Gets kind of 'exploity' to me but then that's why I'm happier playing CK over EU generally. The 'story' element is stronger there and so you can have some fun with your incompetent, megalomaniac slobbering count in ways which lead your one province minor to getting stomped in EU.

Agree with you on westernisation in 1.6.1.1. Cost vs benefit seems totally out of whack. At least they've altered how far behind you need to be to initiate it again, but a grand meh. Think I may try a France game for some cheesy lulz to test a few things out tonight. May be useful in demonstrating just how warped the new diplomatic/alliance system can get.
 
Joined
Jan 7, 2012
Messages
15,511
Golden Horde or Crimea are probably some of the few nations that can actually westernize and benefit from westernization in EU4 now, thanks to Genoa having a foothold in the black sea. Everyone else either benefits too little (Ottomans and Eastern tech schools don't give a shit, spending decades with penalties and 2.5k mana to reform isn't worth it when you only get a -150 break in tech costs), or is too big by the time they have a border with Europeans (No, "just do nothing for 100 years as an OPM until Europeans come" is not a valid strategy).

Even still, Reforming the Government (requirement to westernize now) also kills your Horde Ideas and CBs, and if you are going to lose the only thing that makes Hordes unique then what's the point of playing the Horde in the first place?
 
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Unwanted
Douchebag! Shitposter
Joined
Jan 19, 2014
Messages
3,059
Golden Horde/Mogolia games are tough unless you're willing to push every little advantage. I get bored with having to wait for a pretender revolt to take over every other leader or so, but I'll finish off a Great Khan game at some point. Gets kind of 'exploity' to me but then that's why I'm happier playing CK over EU generally. The 'story' element is stronger there and so you can have some fun with your incompetent, megalomaniac slobbering count in ways which lead your one province minor to getting stomped in EU.

CKII is superior to EUIV because it has a superior system that concentrates on character-driven content. Its not just about national blobs, its about people, their characteristics, their religions, their ambitions and their alleigances, coming together to create a dynamic system.

But above everything, its about people, and what sort of wacky things did in the Middle-Ages.

That is if you aren't really paying attention or have low native intelligence. Once you figure out the patterns it's really just about blobbing. If your vassals are still an issue after one generation you're a moron.

The mechanism behind those relations are utterly simplistic, there's limited diplomacy and deeply it doesn't feel like you're playing the game of Feudalism.
 

Mefi

Prophet
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Joined
Apr 7, 2005
Messages
1,364
Location
waiting for a train at Perdido Street Station
That is if you aren't really paying attention or have low native intelligence. Once you figure out the patterns it's really just about blobbing. If your vassals are still an issue after one generation you're a moron.

The mechanism behind those relations are utterly simplistic, there's limited diplomacy and deeply it doesn't feel like you're playing the game of Feudalism.

Or you just lulz along, larping away. Never really saw much point in people swinging their dicks about how 'good' they are at abusing the AI and mechanics of computer games. Do it when you've won a ranked online weichi tournament against other humans or something. These paradox things are fun when you're killing brain cells with alcohol instead.
 

Mortmal

Arcane
Joined
Jun 15, 2009
Messages
9,591
I am playing Ottomans and Golden Hordes and a little bit of England.

Otomans I think it plays the same, with 1.6.1 AE goes down pretty fast so not much worries from coalitions. The only thing is I no longer have any allies because of them getting -200 from wanting all my provinces. I managed to take one of Spain's provinces while fighting Venice and was able to get back all of Aragon's lands. Also got back all of the provinces for Ukraine, Novgorod and Persia.

Played a little bit with the Golden Hordes I attacked Kazan at the start and took Samara for the gold and I was getting a pretty good income from it for the mercs, I also got the gold mine from Georgia but barely seeing any income from it because of nationalist. managed to beat down Muscovy and take a few provinces while he was busy fighting Lithuania. Allying Timurids currently just in case I fight the Ottomans.

So far France feels like he is expanding faster, He took lands from HRE and from Spain, I tried playing as England and win the PU with him so not having to fight again but got massacred by him, Got lucky tho and got the event that lets you choose the 6,3,3 heir with Alexander and Caesar and someone else can't remember.

Edit:
Westernization takes so long as the Ottomans, 150 years or something. I don't know whats the benefit is or what is the point if I don't get better units.

Golden Hord run went under too. Some people on reddit are suggesting to use a lot of cavalry units which I tried to do kinda, pretty damn expensive but still was pretty much destroyed by Nogai who brought Crimea to lead and who brought Ottomans who ended up leading I guess or something and Timurid not joining and breaking his alliance with me and Muscovy later attacking. I had a pretty good start tho. No luck with Mongolia.
Theres aan extensive thread on official forums ,to sum up use atrition burn your lands and drag enemies on it where you get shock damage bonus, , lot of cavalry indeeed. BUT! Theres also a secret, you can produce units from other countries if you own one of their core,you have to look in province menu,not the general menu, so if you can keep up with tech level you get all the best units possible. Of course, you yave to read forums to find those kind of vital infos......
Westernization is not rcomended at all, maybe gvt reform to avoid pretenders revolt, it will drain too many points and you will lag behind.
 

Space Satan

Arcane
Vatnik
Joined
May 13, 2013
Messages
6,454
Location
Space Hell
Some dev stream of testing new small expansion coming this summer:
- Focused somewhat on republics and trade republics.
- Faction system - like Aristocrats, Traders and the Guilds - for merchant republics only
- Rework of Ideas. Naval is Military now, 3 new ideas like Influence(Mil?), Maritime(Dip) and Humanism(Adm, final bonus -10% idea cost).
- Republics now could build trade posts.
- Goal of the Exp. to deepen existing mechanics of the game, rather than add new ones.
- National Focuses - subtract 1 point of each MP and add 3 to the focused one. Like -1 Dip -1Mil +3 Adm.
- Probably there will be a chance to turn into a republic if you get low on Legit.
- No idea what will come with exp and what will be free with the patch.
 

Chef_Hathaway

King of the Juice
Patron
White Knight
Joined
Aug 13, 2009
Messages
1,066
Location
Dicksville
Divinity: Original Sin BattleTech
Faction System could be interesting if done right. Hopefully it's a test for wider implementation. On the whole, I'd like to see them add more depth, so this is a good sign.
 

Malakal

Arcane
Glory to Ukraine
Joined
Nov 14, 2009
Messages
10,721
Location
Poland
Even if they dont add factions to non republics mods will. And they will also expand on the idea. Paradox only has to provide the basics. Cant wait, loved this feature of MMU.
 

Mortmal

Arcane
Joined
Jun 15, 2009
Messages
9,591
I'd rather see them work a bit on asia and non european countries than on an useless gimmick. Those are far too weak, invading china is super easy , i dont even understand how their armies can be so weak . Hordes, still only get one unit choice for all the game,i am no tatar historian but i am pretty sure they owned guns too.
 

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