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Europa Universalis IV

Arcks

Educated
Joined
Jan 9, 2008
Messages
91
Trade involved strategic ports to extend merchant range (as historical), and since it required cored land and cores weren't the retarded EU3 system we have, building up a trade network to get trade from Europe took centuries. Owning CoT was actually immensely valuable and worth fighting another nation to take, since you kept bigger trade bonuses and everyone else trading in the node paid you to be there. Trade leagues existed to determine who you kept as trade allies and who you shoved out of your CoTs. CoTs themselves were dynamic and you could fuck up other CoTs and make them disappear over time. Trade bonuses were more meaningful, 5% trade chance being potentially what let you go from 0 merchants to 5 merchants in nodes. Non-trade nations could establish regional dominance in their own trade nodes due to the very powerful province effects, and monopolies existed if your trade chance was high enough.

That's a long way to say "just go full free trade and press auto-send on most profitable CoT and forget about it". Not defending EU4 trade but you're making something that is pretty simple seem somewhat complicated.

Maybe you are too dumb to understand monthly/yearly income? Economy was much better in EU3 as you received essentially 0 natural income from anything other then cores, and cores were actually not retarded things that happen in 5 years like in EU4. In EU4 absolutely everything gives you money and the only thing to dump it on is advisors (who are retardedly implemented and cost should scale with country size) or going over force limit.

And it all boils down to stick everything research you want (usually military/adm) and exploiting retarded inflation system to wage war.
 

Vaarna_Aarne

Notorious Internet Vandal
Joined
Jun 1, 2008
Messages
34,585
Location
Cell S-004
MCA Project: Eternity Torment: Tides of Numenera Wasteland 2
I'll just point out that only thing mistaken in aleph's analysis of sliders is that Narrowminded/Innovative is actually one of the scant few sliders where both extremes (and sliders were only ever about the extremes) viable (since Free Subjects will counter the tech penalty, and Narrowminded has benefits of its own like faster Colonial Growth, lower Stability cost, no negative monthly Missionary gain, and increased Spy Defense).
 
Joined
Jan 7, 2012
Messages
15,511
Trade involved strategic ports to extend merchant range (as historical), and since it required cored land and cores weren't the retarded EU3 system we have, building up a trade network to get trade from Europe took centuries. Owning CoT was actually immensely valuable and worth fighting another nation to take, since you kept bigger trade bonuses and everyone else trading in the node paid you to be there. Trade leagues existed to determine who you kept as trade allies and who you shoved out of your CoTs. CoTs themselves were dynamic and you could fuck up other CoTs and make them disappear over time. Trade bonuses were more meaningful, 5% trade chance being potentially what let you go from 0 merchants to 5 merchants in nodes. Non-trade nations could establish regional dominance in their own trade nodes due to the very powerful province effects, and monopolies existed if your trade chance was high enough.

And yet, in essence, it all reduced to higher or lower chances for successful merchant spamming.

Yes, and? You might as well as say that in the end it all reduced down to getting more money or not. A lot more money or none at all. As opposed to EUderp4 where the gameplay is "build as many lightships until marginal cost of trade ship > marginal trade gain". There, I literally summed up all the depth of EU4 in a single sentence.

If you play MP then the whole thing ends up being a retarded zero-sum game where both sides spam light ships until the profit from trade = the maintenance from light ships, meaning trade is useless, and there is literally no other way to play the game.

You could, I don't know, invest in trade related NIs+idea groups...

Useless. I mean, wow, I can make a few more ducats a year vs. having armies ~25% stronger or being able to expand 50% faster.

Maybe you are too dumb to understand monthly/yearly income? Economy was much better in EU3 as you received essentially 0 natural income from anything other then cores, and cores were actually not retarded things that happen in 5 years like in EU4.
Please enlighten me. How is that either realistic or leads to better gameplay? Or is it maybe just complexity for complexity's sake?

Realistic - It's obviously more realistic. Yearly taxes. Duh.
Better Gameplay - Managing finances is a skill.
Complexity for complexity's sake - I'd say that EU4 is dumbing down for dumbing down's sake.

Holy shit you are retarded. Sliders were incredibly important, and were the EU3 equivalent to EU4's country-specific idea line, which is stupid railroading bullshit that just buffs GPs and nerfs smaller powers for no reason at all.

Like the quantity-quality slider which buffs GPs and nerfs smaller nations? Or the centralization-decentralization slider where centralization is always better? Or do you mean the fact that going narrowminded+serfdom fucks you over in the long run compared to innovative+free subjects? Does this really sound better than NI + idea group which at least give nations some specific flavor?

Quantity/Quality didn't favour large nations over small nations. Centralization was obviously better, but there was an opportunity cost to do it vs. other sliders and government types often had restrictions that limited your sliders, forcing you to choose between centralization or less revolt risk. Narrowminded/Innovative, Free subjects/Serfdom, Mercantilism/Free trade, Offensive/Defensive, Aristocracy/Plutocracy all were good either way. Even if you do prefer one side over the other, the massive opportunity cost of getting less/no bonuses at all for around 100 years was enough incentive not to switch.

Fuck you and your retarded EU4 "flavor". Giving babby-mode buffs to already strong nations to make them stronger isn't flavor. There is no logical justification for when I manage to conquer France as Provence and yet still am ~20% weaker in the same position than a France who did nothing at all. You know what was actual flavor? The hundreds of missions and decisions designed to guide nations along historical paths by giving incentives to replicate history, removed or nerfed into useless +prestige or +claims that no one could give a damn about.

Btw, you seem incredibly hung up about cores and coring.
I'm sorry that the EU4 series has the worst core implementation ever conceived. We're supposed to be playing a fucking historical simulator here. Cores in 1-3 years my fucking ass.
 
Last edited:

fastjack

Augur
Joined
Mar 31, 2004
Messages
347
Location
the south bay
As someone who has played (and enjoyed, huge Paradox fan here) the EU games since the first one, I too am really disappointed with EU4. I had high hopes for the trade system when it was previewed but it really let me down. When I originally played EU3 I felt it was vastly inferior to EU2 but after the second expansion pack I felt that it had become a better game. After playing EU4 core I felt that it was even worse than core EU3 and my fears that it would be dumbed down after the greater reach that ck2 had in the market were confirmed (I'm thinking about monarch points and their role in the game here). I'd hoped that like EU3 a number of expansions would 'fix' the game, but from everything that I've heard that has not yet been the case.

I just wanted to chime in to throw another voice behind Average Manatee and let him know he is fighting the good fight as far as I'm concerned.
 

aleph

Arcane
Joined
Jul 24, 2008
Messages
1,778
Average Manatee: I could write a long response and argue against all you wrote, but really what's point? Your posts make it clear that you hate EU IV with a passion, for whatever reason. You just grasp for every straw you can to argue against EU IV.

Also, you really have no idea what Cores in EU IV represent, do you?
 

Nim

Augur
Joined
Oct 22, 2006
Messages
463
I'd hoped that like EU3 a number of expansions would 'fix' the game, but from everything that I've heard that has not yet been the case.
Not that I want to defend EUIV but it has only been out what, 1 year ? I think it took EU3 quite a bit longer to improve significantly ( probably around Httt ?).
Also, you really have no idea what Cores in EU IV represent, do you?
Which would be ?
 

aleph

Arcane
Joined
Jul 24, 2008
Messages
1,778
Which would be ?

Provinces that are well-integrated into their respective nation, nothing more. Not ancestral lands which have been part of the nation since time immemorial like in EU III. Just understand this and you don't have to waste anymore time complaining how EU IV "got cores wrong".
 

fastjack

Augur
Joined
Mar 31, 2004
Messages
347
Location
the south bay
Not that I want to defend EUIV but it has only been out what, 1 year ? I think it took EU3 quite a bit longer to improve significantly ( probably around Httt ?).

You're right, and so I haven't given up on EU4 yet (which is why I periodically check this thread) but iirc it has the second expansion that made EU3 fun for me so I was hoping that this EU4 'expansion' might do the same. Of course nowadays Paradox expansions are just larger dlcs so I guess another year of similar upgrades and EU4's state might be more along the lines of what I was expecting/hoping.
 
Joined
Jan 7, 2012
Messages
15,511
Which would be ?

Provinces that are well-integrated into their respective nation, nothing more. Not ancestral lands which have been part of the nation since time immemorial like in EU III. Just understand this and you don't have to waste anymore time complaining how EU IV "got cores wrong".

Complete bullshit. Why does the mouseover for a core say "x considers this to be one of her core provinces"? Why are cores left on land you no longer control? Why can you be forced to "revoke" a core in a peace deal? Why does retaking cores cause less AE?

The concept of a "core" province has been fairly stable throughout most Paradox games, from EU to HoI. To say that they somehow turned the concept on its head without any explanation or reasoning just because they implemented cores in a retarded fashion is stupid. The fact is that they simply implemented cores in a retarded fashion.
 

aleph

Arcane
Joined
Jul 24, 2008
Messages
1,778
Complete bullshit. Why does the mouseover for a core say "x considers this to be one of her core provinces"? Why are cores left on land you no longer control? Why can you be forced to "revoke" a core in a peace deal? Why does retaking cores cause less AE?

The concept of a "core" province has been fairly stable throughout most Paradox games, from EU to HoI. To say that they somehow turned the concept on its head without any explanation or reasoning just because they implemented cores in a retarded fashion is stupid. The fact is that they simply implemented cores in a retarded fashion.

Okay, explain what the concept of core provinces in most Paradox games is?
 

Grinolf

Arcane
Joined
Mar 6, 2013
Messages
1,297
EU4 isn't a good game and Paradox's lack of clear vision about what they going to do with it didn't help the situation. But these nostalgic posts about how good EU3 was, as wasn't just bland and crazy sandbox which only redeeming feature was a great moding opportunities. And speaking about EU3, only galf of them changed the game for the better and half of them were as lackluster as EU4 DLC. More so, the last one was so broken, that Paradox decided to remove some features from it alltogether Instead of trying to fix it.
 

Krash

Arcane
Joined
Nov 26, 2008
Messages
3,057
Location
gengivitis
After playing EU4 core I felt that it was even worse than core EU3 and my fears that it would be dumbed down after the greater reach that ck2 had in the market were confirmed (I'm thinking about monarch points and their role in the game here). I'd hoped that like EU3 a number of expansions would 'fix' the game, but from everything that I've heard that has not yet been the case.

Why is it always on codex that "I don't like it" is equated to "dumbed down"? Having far more difficult decisions is the very opposite of dumbing down, your like/dislike of the game nonwithstanding.

I do agree however that Paradox, or at least the EU team, don't seem to know how to do proper system design.
 

aleph

Arcane
Joined
Jul 24, 2008
Messages
1,778
Ah, the classical internet retard tactic. Pretend you are so dumb that no one wants to go through the length of explaining basic english word definitions to you, then claim victory.

And yet, you still have not explained what you understand under core province and why the EU III implementation fits this concept while the EU IV one does not. Why is fast coring that costs you monarch points you could better spent elsewhere worse than slow but essentially automatic coring?
 

Luzur

Good Sir
Joined
Feb 12, 2009
Messages
41,993
Location
Swedish Empire
Yes it's there alright, and the scaled truce years (this is where the 15 years comes from) is also there.

EDIT:
How hard it would've been for Johann to tell his team to make truce time a option in the menu?
Given that it took me 15 seconds to find it and figure out how to mod it, I'd say they shouldn't bother. Let e-sportfags play their "balanced" game, this nigga always has his own personalized mod active (speaking of which, does anyone know HOW the new localisation files work?).

i am curious about that mod of your lillebror, what have you changed and what does it do?
 
Joined
Jan 7, 2012
Messages
15,511
And yet, you still have not explained what you understand under core province and why the EU III implementation fits this concept while the EU IV one does not.

Because the definition is obvious. A core is a core part of your realm. This means that the land is recognized as being rightfully yours by other nations and by the people within.

Why is fast coring that costs you monarch points you could better spent elsewhere worse than slow but essentially automatic coring?
Because that's how it works in real life and because monarch power is retarded? How dumb are you going to play?
 

aleph

Arcane
Joined
Jul 24, 2008
Messages
1,778
A core is a core part of your realm. This means that the land is recognized as being rightfully yours by other nations and by the people within.

Which can mean anything from just a diplomatic claim with barely any significance to well integrated province which will be defended to the last drop of blood. This in no way implies a specific implementation.

Because that's how it works in real life and because monarch power is retarded? How dumb are you going to play?

Really in real life there is a timer of 50 years and afterwards occupied land becomes legally part of the occupiers territory. And magically increases tax rate. Sure, super realistic...

And of course, you are another "monarch points in EU IV are retard but equally gamey stuff from EU III is not TROLOLOL" dumbfuck

The EU series was always the Paradoy product line which had the most gamey stuff in it, so arguing mechanics in EU games solely based on realism is pretty much retarded.
 

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