Putting the 'role' back in role-playing games since 2002.
Donate to Codex
Good Old Games
  • Welcome to rpgcodex.net, a site dedicated to discussing computer based role-playing games in a free and open fashion. We're less strict than other forums, but please refer to the rules.

    "This message is awaiting moderator approval": All new users must pass through our moderation queue before they will be able to post normally. Until your account has "passed" your posts will only be visible to yourself (and moderators) until they are approved. Give us a week to get around to approving / deleting / ignoring your mundane opinion on crap before hassling us about it. Once you have passed the moderation period (think of it as a test), you will be able to post normally, just like all the other retards.

Europa Universalis IV

Joined
May 11, 2007
Messages
1,854,519
Location
Belém do Pará, Império do Brasil
I haven't played the Wealth of Nations but the new system lacks a certain oomph. New Clausewitz games need a sandboxy aspect in which the game creates entirely new stories, such as the pops from Victoria 2 or the Crowning Achievement of Awesome that is CKII's character system. What follows is one way in which I think EU4 could become something more.

Truth be told, trade in EU4, to me, is currently just an interesting framework. However much it tries put more of trade on screen, that is, to abstract less aspects of trade in the period the routes themselves do not portray any exchange. What we have is an uncanny stream of goods flowing from the whole world to one of the ultimate centers of trade - Seville, Venice and Holland. Facts such as how eastern goods were payed with spanish silver aren't really portrayed because those goods merely come to Europe as long as there are ships to carry them.

Maybe I like Victoria 2 a tad bit much, but I think demands for goods could be tracked on a regional basis and, depending on random events and local production, certain parts of the world might create opportunities that players can pursue. War (eventuality) and weather (random event, I guess) issues in grain producing areas such as Poland might force a dutch player to trade or even go to war in a particular way. Trade should be more than a way to tax and tariff your way into wealth but also as a way to fulfill your needs as a nation.


You're right.
I think the problem of EU in general is that its too unpersonnal a game. Gameplay from 1450s to 1650s something would a lot like CKII with its person-driven gameplay, except you're slowly getting excuses to strip your nobles' feudal domains and concentrate even more power in your hands. Essentially, in the EU series, you have westphalian nation-states everywhere a lot earlier than it really happened, even in the weirdest places, like Africa.

There's also the fact the colonization system is still shit.

I must praise paradox due to the fact they seem to be slowly getting less eurocentric over time since Divine Wind, and the fact they have perceived that its best to give each civilization type its own special mechanics rather than one-size-fits-all solutions (something they figured from CK2, from what I see).
 

Brinko

Arcane
Joined
May 7, 2012
Messages
884
Are there national ideas for a catholic India? I saw they had some for muslim India. Just want to know as I am trying to see how easy it would be to make Sri Lanka catholic in CK2 and go rampaging across india and when I transfer my save to EU4 see how absolutely broken everything can get with all the man power and tech I will have but don't want to get stuck with shit default ideas.
 
Self-Ejected

Irenaeus

Self-Ejected
Patron
Dumbfuck Repressed Homosexual The Real Fanboy
Joined
Nov 24, 2012
Messages
1,867,980
Location
Rio de Janeiro, Cidade Desespero
PC RPG Website of the Year, 2015 Divinity: Original Sin Torment: Tides of Numenera
Wish I could understand how to play Victoria 2. Now all I can is to start it up, look at all the numbers and pie charts and run in shame.

I haven't played the Wealth of Nations but the new system lacks a certain oomph. New Clausewitz games need a sandboxy aspect in which the game creates entirely new stories, such as the pops from Victoria 2 or the Crowning Achievement of Awesome that is CKII's character system. What follows is one way in which I think EU4 could become something more.

Truth be told, trade in EU4, to me, is currently just an interesting framework. However much it tries put more of trade on screen, that is, to abstract less aspects of trade in the period the routes themselves do not portray any exchange. What we have is an uncanny stream of goods flowing from the whole world to one of the ultimate centers of trade - Seville, Venice and Holland. Facts such as how eastern goods were payed with spanish silver aren't really portrayed because those goods merely come to Europe as long as there are ships to carry them.

Maybe I like Victoria 2 a tad bit much, but I think demands for goods could be tracked on a regional basis and, depending on random events and local production, certain parts of the world might create opportunities that players can pursue. War (eventuality) and weather (random event, I guess) issues in grain producing areas such as Poland might force a dutch player to trade or even go to war in a particular way. Trade should be more than a way to tax and tariff your way into wealth but also as a way to fulfill your needs as a nation.

Economy is shit/broken in vanilla Vic 2 and it is awesome in EU4 with current both expansions. Pops are a good concept but badly executed in Vic2. Character system was better in CK1 than CK2.

I think the problem of EU in general is that its too unpersonnal a game. Gameplay from 1450s to 1650s something would a lot like CKII with its person-driven gameplay, except you're slowly getting excuses to strip your nobles' feudal domains and concentrate even more power in your hands. Essentially, in the EU series, you have westphalian nation-states everywhere a lot earlier than it really happened, even in the weirdest places, like Africa.

There's also the fact the colonization system is still shit.

I disagree wholeheartedly. I recommend you play with current both expansions.

I must praise paradox due to the fact they seem to be slowly getting less eurocentric over time since Divine Wind, and the fact they have perceived that its best to give each civilization type its own special mechanics rather than one-size-fits-all solutions (something they figured from CK2, from what I see).

I agree 100%.



Anyway, really looking forward for the next Expansion of EU4! I'm loving the game as it is and from the Development Diaries it looks that it will become even better! :incline:

And to think I had lost hope on Paradox since the shitty Aztec thing in CK2 and the anachronistic aspect of that game in general and the shitty leftist gameplay of Vic2 (thought some say it was less horrible with the expansion).
 

MoLAoS

Guest
Making trade interesting is not difficult at all, but it may not be possible because of how hard Johan is pushing MPEU4. All the best systems are just so much better in single player.
 

Delterius

Arcane
Joined
Dec 12, 2012
Messages
15,956
Location
Entre a serra e o mar.
Economy is shit/broken in vanilla Vic 2 and it is awesome in EU4 with current both expansions. Pops are a good concept but badly executed in Vic2. Character system was better in CK1 than CK2.

The suggestion wasn't really a pop system for EU4. Pops were much improved via patches and mods for Vicky2 and they also fit that game much better because of the new heights that the period brought to population management, engineering and logistics.

What I was thinking is wether the EU4 trade system could be improved in an emergent way, a simplified system that tracks demand and supply per region, creating opportunities for the player to pursue. It might be a pipe dream but who knows?

By the way,

http://forum.paradoxplaza.com/forum/showthread.php?799535

http://forum.paradoxplaza.com/forum/showthread.php?800644

Haven't seen those diaries listed here.
 

JarlFrank

I like Thief THIS much
Patron
Joined
Jan 4, 2007
Messages
34,807
Location
KA.DINGIR.RA.KI
Steve gets a Kidney but I don't even get a tag.
Besides in EU4 coring does not kill province nationalism. Only once that ends you can really tell the province truly is yours.
Instead not having cores in EU4 causes magical world-wide rebellion, which is even worse (and ridiculously dumb).

It's actually a great system because this way, rapidly expanding nations actually get problems. I had years of rebellion because I took a couple of provinces from Egypt as Scandinavia, since I had recieved the mission to conquer Jerusalem. Too bad it was too far away from my nearest coastal province, so I couldn't core. Spent decades fighting rebels at 90% overextension and got really fucked up by that shit, at one point I almost collapsed while trying to both keep rebels in check and somehow acquire a province closer to Egypt. Wars were too much trouble, so I went with slowly diploannexing small coastal nations, but that would take a very long time, so I just had to suck it up. Finally, I reached a level of tech that increased my colonial range and I could core Alexandria, YEAAAAAH

Also saw Poland and France collapse into multiple smaller nations as religious turmoil arose during the Reformation, and I had to fight off dozens of religious rebels too while overextended. System's good and can really hurt blobs.
 
Joined
Mar 3, 2010
Messages
9,497
Location
Italy
i liked way better the eu3's overextention which was in proportion with the number of provinces you already got cored.
no way the english empire would have collapsed because queen victoria had conquered three more acres in china.
 

Malakal

Arcane
Glory to Ukraine
Joined
Nov 14, 2009
Messages
10,721
Location
Poland
i liked way better the eu3's overextention which was in proportion with the number of provinces you already got cored.
no way the english empire would have collapsed because queen victoria had conquered three more acres in china.

No way there would be violent protests and unrest in the American Empire just because they conquered three provinces in Iraq/Afghanistan...
 

MoLAoS

Guest
The fact that non core lands cause all this hassle is not justified by the fact that Paradox lacks limits on blobbing. Paradox should fix blobbing in an intuitive way instead.
 

JarlFrank

I like Thief THIS much
Patron
Joined
Jan 4, 2007
Messages
34,807
Location
KA.DINGIR.RA.KI
Steve gets a Kidney but I don't even get a tag.
Yeah, I much prefer EU4's way of coring to the old "wait 50 years and you got a core!", it's much less of a passive "wait till it's done" thing and you can only core provinces within colonial range. If you get a peace deal where you recieve a province that is landlocked and not connected to the rest of your territory, you won't be able to core it until it's connected. No waiting for 50 years and it's yours, you have to actually do a thing to get it cored, and if you do something foolish like accept the mission to conquer Jerusalem and end up with 4 Egyptian provinces way out of coring range... well, shit's going to get intense.

Also, it's pretty damn good that overextension hurts so bad and can really fuck your shit up and leads to rebellions by p. much everyone, completely independent of how many cores you already have. Push for full annexation during war? Cool, you got 10 provinces at once, this is p. awesome. But you also got a fuckload of overextension now, and oops, not enough administrative power points to immediately core them all, so you have to live with the consequences for a while. And rather than just wait 50 years for it all to pass, you actually need to spend points on coring that are also used for other stuff like, oh, tech and buildings and stability.

The system is damn solid and fun and I don't see anything unintuitive about it. Expand too quickly without having the capacity for it, and you will be hit with major rebllions all over your country, and you actually have to spend resources on fixing that shit instead of waiting for it to solve itself. It's way less arbitrary and passive compared to the EU3 system.
 

MoLAoS

Guest
I didn't play EU3 so I can't say if it was even dumber than 4, but the system in 4 is not intuitive. Sure I can understand the mechanics due to how dumbed down they are and what I am supposed to do. But that doesn't mean they make sense.
 

oscar

Arcane
Joined
Aug 30, 2008
Messages
8,067
Location
NZ
It should be the un-cored regions that flare up and go psycho not people who would have no reason to give the slightest fuck that you've conquered these new territories.
 

Delterius

Arcane
Joined
Dec 12, 2012
Messages
15,956
Location
Entre a serra e o mar.
It should be the un-cored regions that flare up and go psycho not people who would have no reason to give the slightest fuck that you've conquered these new territories.
If an uncored territory represent a piece of land which government has yet to estabilish itself, to make the necessary concessions and alliances required for governability, one might assume that your faction is actively spending resources to keep those lands into the fold. Pre existing factions in your Empire might feel that it is time to strike. As the dictator that you are in EU, you are supposed to keep the plebs in check.
 

JarlFrank

I like Thief THIS much
Patron
Joined
Jan 4, 2007
Messages
34,807
Location
KA.DINGIR.RA.KI
Steve gets a Kidney but I don't even get a tag.
It should be the un-cored regions that flare up and go psycho not people who would have no reason to give the slightest fuck that you've conquered these new territories.

It's kinda like the effect of low stability - the chance of rebellion is raised for all existing rebel groups. It doesn't spawn any new groups. It's even pretty logical this way - when an effort has to be spent on controlling newly conquered territories, less can be spent on controlling all the rebel groups around. That's the whole concept of overextension, and why those groups are more likely to strike in such a situation.
 

Space Satan

Arcane
Vatnik
Joined
May 13, 2013
Messages
6,457
Location
Space Hell
New dev diary:
Client States, Allied Transports and Central Asia

Custom Client States
As time goes on in Europa Universalis, the memories of the old medieval states fade away, as they have long ago been conquered. This creates potential problems for some types of conquerors as there may be no viable flag and identity with which to manipulate the population’s loyalty.

As is often the case, Napoleon was an inspiration here. We have added the concept that the great Emperor introduced to so many places in Europe, creating countries with new identities and flags out of territories he liberated from the decadent monarchies of Europe.

Once you have reached Diplomatic Tech 22 in Art of War (about the 1690s in game-time, for Western European powers), you get the ability to create Client States. You do this by designating a capital province on the map, and then pressing the client state button in the province interface. When creating a new Client State, you can edit its name, its flag and map color, and decide which symbol should be on its flag. Then you can add any adjacent province to that new country at any time. There is no upper limit to the size of these new vassals. When created, a Client State is treated as a very loyal vassal.

attachment.php



Allied Transports
One of the fun little things we added in Art of War is the possibility to allow your allies to board your fleets as needed. You can toggle any of your fleets at any time to allow or disallow this. This is very useful if you lack a large navy, and your ally have good transporting capacity.


Improved Battle Displays
Ever wanted a bit more information about an ally’s battle before joining it, such as whether they decided to attack across a river or have their entire frontline made up of cannon? In Art of War, you will be able to view your allies’ battles even if you are not participating in them, simply by clicking on the battle on the map.

We’ve also spruced up the battle results display a bit. When a battle is over, the results screen will now show 3D models of the leading participants’ infantry, allowing you to admire your victorious soldiers in full detail after they are done routing the enemy.

attachment.php



Central Asia
Now I turn over the keys to Danubiancossack who did the work on remapping this part of the world.

Ok so let's begin. As a result of my well known Russophilia (and I suspect the ability to read Russian Cyrillic), and some rumored map editing skill, I was rewarded with reworking this general region of the map, comprising the modern day -stan republics of Kazakhstan, Turkmenistan and Uzbekistan. Basically everything North of the Persia-Afghanistan line, everything South of the Russian southern steppe borderlands and everything between the Qing border and Caspian Sea. How did that happen? Well kind of like this: Johan spoke to me and said "DC get it done" and, lo, Johan's will was done.

As was foretold.

So lets begin with some screenies, shall we?

attachment.php


First of all we have the region comprised of modern Turkmenistan and Uzbekistan. It’s a pretty straightforward place, with great centers of trade following the ancient Silk Road that connected the east with the west. On top of that we also have rising stars such as city of Samarkand (I assume most Paradox fans have heard of Timur and his cruelty) but also places that will have their own peaks throughout EU4 time frame, such as Bukhara and Khiva. This region’s geography is dominated by two things: the Amu Darya river, which is the region's lifeline, and the Zarafshan Mountains to the south east, with their passes connecting it with other neighboring regions (covered by previous dev diaries). You can now also see cotton production in the southern provinces of what is modern day Uzbekistan.

attachment.php


attachment.php


And we now move on to Nogai and Kazakh realms, the second half of the region that was assigned to me. The first thing you might notice is that the really big provinces that were the hallmark of this region up to now are gone. We have reduced Kazan's southern borders to match more accurately refllect the historical split, as well as cutting the Uzbeks in size, in favor of Nogai. That little green puny country is now gone, and Nogai is a serious source of power, one that nobody will simply annex in one go. With that said, Nogai is no longer a single culture country, now; it has Kazakh provinces as well as a new addition, the Bashkir culture (which emorteUA will cover in more detail later in this dev diary).
The Uzbeks have also received many new provinces, but their overall situation hasn't changed by too much. They still possess a very small base of their own culture in the south, while most of the center of their megastate is comprised of Kazakh cultured provinces, including the only true city in the steppe region, Orda Bazar - their capital and the mint of an entire region that probably spans a couple of thousand kilometers. At the same time, in the Northern bit of their empire, a Siberian population is eager for freedom and a realm of their own. It is also important that the steppe remain a very big place that isn't densely populated, so don't expect great cities everywhere or high base taxes in nomad inhabited provinces - because there are very few of those. Better make sure those are the ones you take first.

While perhaps very big at first glance, these steppe realms are really "glass cannons". Big and powerful on paper, but also challenging to keep together against both internal and external challenges (specially at the same time). The Uzbeks should provide a unique and interesting gameplay challenge with the potential to achieve greatness and perhaps even challenge the legacy of Genghis Khan.

With all of that said, I now give floor to my Sovi-I mean Russian comrade, elmorteUA, who will tell you more about Siberian overhaul, or in other words explain "why everything belongs to the Motherland!".


Siberia
Now we let elmorteUA take over and talk about the work he provided for Siberia.

Kamchadals?
ON MY KAMCHATKA?!?!


My comrade DanubianCossak told you about Central Asia, now it's my time to tell you about Siberia.

Before AoW Siberia appeared to be one vast lifeless piece of land waiting for Russian colonists to settle there. Looking at the map of provinces it was could notice that they were bigger, and therefore worse detailed, than provinces in any other region. And the extreme north was presented as endless wasteland and nothing more.


New Siberia
In this DLC the situation has significantly changed. More than twenty new provinces have been added that will make Siberian expansion more interesting. The Wastelands have moved further to the north, opening up Mangazeya, a center of the Siberian fur trade developed by Stroganov merchants that made it, in the words of the historian George St. George, "a virtual Baghdad of Siberia". We’ve also added Komi and many other provinces rich with fur or locations that were simply underpopulated areas of the extreme North.
attachment.php



Buryatia
The most important news – Siberia is no longer lifeless. Buryatia now lies to the east of Lake Baikal. The Buryats had formed from different Mongol tribes that had migrated north and separated themselves from the rest of Mongols. De jure, the Buryats accepted reign of the Mongol khans, but, de facto, they were independent - similar to the relationship many regions had with the heirs of Genghis.In 1444, Buryatia owns 4 provinces and could potentially compete with other Mongol tribes in order to become the local hegemon.
attachment.php



Siberian Clans
The rest of new Siberian tribes are settled closer to the Pacific Ocean. They are the Koryak tribe of Chauchuvens, the Yukagiri people of the Khodynts, the Kamchadals on Kamchatka and the warlike Chukchi. These new tribes could seriously change the game style and become base for conquest of Siberia by mighty Spain. Or maybe one of them will defeat all other tribes and manage to create a country, that would be able to protect itself from European invaders.

I think that the most interesting of the tribes are the Chukchi. Throughout their history, the Chukchi struggled with the severe environment around them, and were often fighting neighboring tribes, so these struggles have shaped the unique culture of the Chukchi’s warriors. The Chukchi were so successful that even Russia was not able to conquer them purley by force. In real history, the Chukchi managed to defend themselves even against the vaunted Russian Cossacks, that would raid their lands for a few centuries.

The nomadic Chauchuvens were also not a peaceful people. Significant parts of their stories and legends tell of wars and battles with other tribes including the Chukchi.

The Yukagiri people of the Khodynts is far less dramatic. They were small in number and conflicts with neighbors, as well as disease, led to the Khodynts’ assimilation with other Yukagiri tribes.

Unlike the three abovementioned tribes the Kamchadals or Itelmens had a settled way of life. Nevertheless they weren’t familiar with agriculture, and obtained food mostly by hunting, fishing and gathering.

These tribes are very different from other nations, so a new government type was added for them – the Siberian Clan Council. Besides the name, this government type has one more feature: it allows small tribes to migrate from one place to another just like the North American Indians do.
attachment.php



New culture group
Art of War also adds a new Siberian cultural group – the Evenks. This allows us to show specific demographics of Siberian people better. We’ve also made changes in trade nodes, so Siberia is no longer part of the Chinese Yumen or Beijing nodes.
attachment.php
 

JudasIscariot

Arcane
Patron
Joined
Aug 19, 2009
Messages
2,001
Location
IV Republic of Polandia
Serpent in the Staglands Codex USB, 2014
So ummmm is this as fun as CKII or should I just stick with CKII? Been thinking about trying to take Pagan Poland all the way through a CKII game and exporting it as Pagan to EUIV. Does this game even support the Pagan bits?
 

oscar

Arcane
Joined
Aug 30, 2008
Messages
8,067
Location
NZ
I haven't played in months but EUIV feels a lot more 'gamey' than CKII which is more 'larpy'.

Also seemed like some massive balance issues and trade was sort of stupid and ahistorical.
 

As an Amazon Associate, rpgcodex.net earns from qualifying purchases.
Back
Top Bottom