Game News Expeditions: Rome Dev Diary #3 - Story

[Dr Schultz]

It's also easier to realize that - as the average American - your knowledge of ancient history is close to zero :D

Yeah if only Americans were as enlightened as the Brits.

I'm Italian, Roguey, not Brit.

And of course I'm not implying that the Americans are inherently ignorant about Roman history. It's your educational system that made you ignorant about this specific topic.

For comparison, even before I turned 18, as many other Italians, I've studied 3 years of Roman History (at 8, 11 and 15), 5 years of Latin and 3 years of Latin Literature (during the highschool). At the college I delved even deeper in all these topics.

You can imagine the amount of fun I had reading Titus Livius quoted, in English, by someone that Cleary has no idea about when and why he wrote Ab Urbe Condita, all in the desperate attempt of dissimulating his ignorance...

 

[Tigranes]

"What is an RPG?"
"Based on this paragraph from Livy about Greeks in Asia, Roman legionaries were not black. DEUS VULT!"

 

[Roguey]

I'm Italian, Roguey, not Brit.

And of course I'm not implying that the Americans are inherently ignorant about Roman history. It's your educational system that made you ignorant about this specific topic.

For comparison, even before I turned 18, as many other Italians, I've studied 3 years of Roman History (at 8, 11 and 15), 5 years of Latin and 3 years of Latin Literature. At the college I delved even deeper in all these topics.

You can imagine the amount of fun I had reading Titus Livius quoted, in English, by someone that Cleary has no idea about when and why he wrote Ab urbe condita in the desperate attempt of dissimulating his ignorance...

Even lib Wikipedia says that sub-saharan Africans in the empire were practically unheard of https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Black_people_in_ancient_Roman_history

Aethiopes were rare in Rome under Nero; it was evidence of a brilliant and costly affair when the gladiators for a whole day's show consisted only of Aethiopes.[1]

One "Aethiop" soldier is reported in Britannia about 210, his black skin being considered a bad omen[2] for North African Emperor Septimius Severus who was born in Leptis Magna.[3]

The term "Aethiop" carried no social implications.[4] There was no such thing as a black community; immigrants from south of the Sahara were few and from disparate ethnic communities. The immigrants would have been separated from each other in households of other people, and if they had descendants these would have blended within very few generations into the local population.[4] While slaves formed a large minority of the population and slavery was a deeply stigmatized social status, the great majority of slaves were from European and Mediterranean populations; inherited physical characteristics were not relevant to slave status.[4][5] Black people were not excluded from any profession, and no stigma or bias against mixed race relationships is recorded in Antiquity.[6]

 

[Jason Liang]

But I thought we enjoyed this back in 1991~


Or even earlier? Like I mentioned, Spartactus.

Black people were probably rare in Rome, but not in the entirety of the empire itself? And it seems like the game likely takes place mostly outside of Rome.

 

[Dr Schultz]

I'm Italian, Roguey, not Brit.

And of course I'm not implying that the Americans are inherently ignorant about Roman history. It's your educational system that made you ignorant about this specific topic.

For comparison, even before I turned 18, as many other Italians, I've studied 3 years of Roman History (at 8, 11 and 15), 5 years of Latin and 3 years of Latin Literature. At the college I delved even deeper in all these topics.

You can imagine the amount of fun I had reading Titus Livius quoted, in English, by someone that Cleary has no idea about when and why he wrote Ab urbe condita in the desperate attempt of dissimulating his ignorance...

Even lib Wikipedia says that sub-saharan Africans in the empire were practically unheard of https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Black_people_in_ancient_Roman_history

Aethiopes were rare in Rome under Nero; it was evidence of a brilliant and costly affair when the gladiators for a whole day's show consisted only of Aethiopes.[1]

One "Aethiop" soldier is reported in Britannia about 210, his black skin being considered a bad omen[2] for North African Emperor Septimius Severus who was born in Leptis Magna.[3]

The term "Aethiop" carried no social implications.[4] There was no such thing as a black community; immigrants from south of the Sahara were few and from disparate ethnic communities. The immigrants would have been separated from each other in households of other people, and if they had descendants these would have blended within very few generations into the local population.[4] While slaves formed a large minority of the population and slavery was a deeply stigmatized social status, the great majority of slaves were from European and Mediterranean populations; inherited physical characteristics were not relevant to slave status.[4][5] Black people were not excluded from any profession, and no stigma or bias against mixed race relationships is recorded in Antiquity.[6]

Except, Roguey, I didn't say that sub-saharan people where part of the empire. I did say that Numidian, like the rest of the Northern Africa people at the time, Egyptians included, ranged from full black to middle-brown.

To be as clear as possible.

This a Berber.
https://images.app.goo.gl/3a7y3H6q7rzMA6Ka6
But also this one is.
https://images.app.goo.gl/TgmG2uHQ8B2PHv8D6
And this one:
https://c8.alamy.com/comp/BTGW94/moroccan-berber-poses-for-photograph-BTGW94.jpg


Northern Africa population, exactly like today, at the time was a mismatch of different people, and this is because of the intense trade (which was in part slave trade) within Republic/Empire and between the provinces and the rest of Africa.

I posted a video where a renowned historian explained precisely that.

Problem is: a bunch of American idiots nowadays are so occupied in projecting their silly ideological battles over the rest of the world history, that they don't understand shit about said history. Nor they understand the basics of human geography, apparently, given their conviction that black people lived only in Sub-Saharan Africa before coming to America.

Pinpointing the exact degree of blackness of the Roman's subjects is a idiotic problem that only a contemporary (and quite ignorant) American could have. For all intents and purposes, Numidians were black to Roman eyes. And - most importantly - Romans didn't give a shit. Numidians were firstly and mostly barbarians, therefore they were inherently inferior to the Romans like the rest of the barbarians, no matter the origin and the skin color. Shocking as it may sound for the wannabe white-supremacists of this forum, an Ancient Roman would have despised a black person with wide nose and black eyes as much as a milky-white person with blonde hairs and blue eyes. Not a inch more nor a inch less.

I hope now you can fully appreciate how idiotic this whole debate is for someone that understands the slightest about Roman History.

 

[Kalin]

Shitalian lol it never fails

 

[somewhatgiggly]

Numidians weren't black, though Romans would care little if a darker skin 'Libyan' or 'Ethiopian' came into the empire through Nubia or the trade routes across the Sahara, and there were female gladiators, and female fighters among Germanic and Scythian tribes.

The mandatory companion thing is more of a irk than the existence of black people then in the Empire (which had traces of everyone from East Asian, Central Asian, Northern European, Sub Saharan African, Arabian, Indian, nearly everyone north of the Congo and north of the Malay Peninsula and south of the Tundra could had been found in Rome at its height).

However, I just...can't get excited for another game set in the turn of the Empire.

I dunno why, but I want another late-Roman game, explore the fall of the Empire, from 200-500. The later, the better, IMO.

 

[Dr Schultz]

Numidians weren't black,

Except they were, in significant part, like all northern Africans at the time.
If you don't believe me, just search Berber on google and watch a bunch of pictures. Or alternatively have a trip in Tunisia/Mauritania. Or watch the video I've posted in a previous page (around min 22) if you can understand Italian.

More often than not, speaking to Americans, I'm under the impression that you guys believe that the Sahara desert was kind of a boarder between black people and brown people.

Well, it wasn't. Not during the Roman time, not before and not after.

 

[HeroMarine]

shitposting

For a person who claims to live in a former territory of the Roman Empire, you sure seem desperate to include subsaharans in your Ancient Rome Alternate History.

 

[Dr Schultz]

shitposting

For a person who claims to live in a former territory of the Roman Empire, you sure seem desperate to include subsaharans in your Ancient Rome Alternate History.

I suppose the genuine desire to dissipate the ingorance of my fellow Americans could look like like that from the standpoint of an ignorant goat .

The fun is precisely this one from my standpoint. And it's a huge fun. Believe me XD

 

[Roguey]

More often than not, speaking to Americans, I'm under the impression that you guys believe that the Sahara desert was kind of a boarder between black people and brown people.

It's a thousand miles of desert from north to south and the people of the south were too stupid to invent/use the wheel. The number of people who could make that trip was small enough to be a rounding error.

 

[Dr Schultz]

More often than not, speaking to Americans, I'm under the impression that you guys believe that the Sahara desert was kind of a boarder between black people and brown people.

It's a thousand miles of desert from north to south and the people of the south were too stupid to invent/use the wheel. The number of people who could make that trip was small enough to be a rounding error.

It's a thousand miles of desert crossed by trade routes centuries before Romans came into Africa.

Believe me, Roguey, I'm really having a blast with this thread.

Basically I'm looking to a bunch of ignorant kids that try to apply their made up racial categories to places, people and histories that they know nothing about.
And the funniest part is their adamant conviction that the rest of the world gives the slightest fuck about their silly battle pro or against black people.

They can't even concieve that the rest of world don't care and would simply love to not read a stinking pile of bullshit about its history any time Afroamericans are involved. Too hard to immagine for their limited minds, I guess

PS: in case you haven't noticed, in crossing a desert, wheels and carriages are the last thing you want to use.

 

[whydoibother]

"What is an RPG?"
"Based on this paragraph from Livy about Greeks in Asia, Roman legionaries were not black. DEUS VULT!"

Ye olde RPG fans: "I wish this character creation had more options, I want to be a fat ugly bastard."
Neo-RPG fans: "Nooooo this character creator has too many options! Only athletic white men should be possible for this low fantasy alt-history roman campaign nooooo muh realismus!"

It's a thousand miles of desert crossed by trade routes centuries before Romans came into Africa.

We know from journals and material remains that Gaius Suetonius Paulinus, the guy who defeated Boudica, went to Senegal river and raided and traded there, and tried to establish a colony.
Another guy, Lucius Cornelius Balbus, fought wars against half of the African polities, and he established trade and a post at Niger river.
Both men lived and did their deeds before Christ, and moved enough humans around in forced conscriptions, tributes or slaves to trade, so that the point of hurrr Sahara impregnable barrier no human can pass is deboonked.

Also, though I can't find the historical sources at a glance, when Libya and Chad fought over some oasis settlements south of the desert the reports would frequently mention that those used to be Roman colonies and trade posts. In modern northern Chad.

 

[ExposedBrainMatter]

Ignoring the racial and sexual proprieties of a historical period is basically a cop out for addressing these complex issues. You could use these issues as an opportunity to strengthen the narrative and perhaps even gameplay, but instead you choose to make it a fantasy land playground that ignores uncomfortable truths. This is what people mean when they say video games are not art. Nobody would do this in other mediums (except for modern woke shit), so you are on the same level as a current Netflix show.

I really doubt this game will address why there are identities in odd places in an interesting way, which is the real problem.

 

[whydoibother]

Ignoring the racial and sexual proprieties of a historical period is basically a cop out for addressing these complex issues. You could use these issues as an opportunity to strengthen the narrative and perhaps even gameplay, but instead you choose to make it a fantasy land playground that ignores uncomfortable truths. This is what people mean when they say video games are not art. Nobody would do this in other mediums (except for modern woke shit), so you are on the same level as a current Netflix show.

I really doubt this game will address why there are identities in odd places in an interesting way, which is the real problem.

Lets not pretend that if some soldier girl explains why she is a soldier, and a girl, despite this being unusual (with some Mulan story maybe), you will suddenly defend the game. If the black legionary has a quest and story about how he is the son of some chief and was sent to train in the barracks in a hostage exchange situation for a treaty, and ended up staying because he liked the law and order, you'd still bitch about why there's a black guy.
You already have some sort of emotional reaction to this, and your post is just trying to rationalize, and pretend its reals and not feels. No reason to do that here, you are among your peers, who all virtue signal about how much they hate women and niggers all the time, why be ashamed of participating in the circlejerk and mask it?

 

[ExposedBrainMatter]

Ignoring the racial and sexual proprieties of a historical period is basically a cop out for addressing these complex issues. You could use these issues as an opportunity to strengthen the narrative and perhaps even gameplay, but instead you choose to make it a fantasy land playground that ignores uncomfortable truths. This is what people mean when they say video games are not art. Nobody would do this in other mediums (except for modern woke shit), so you are on the same level as a current Netflix show.

I really doubt this game will address why there are identities in odd places in an interesting way, which is the real problem.

Lets not pretend that if some soldier girl explains why she is a soldier, and a girl, despite this being unusual (with some Mulan story maybe), you will suddenly defend the game. If the black legionary has a quest and story about how he is the son of some chief and was sent to train in the barracks in a hostage exchange situation for a treaty, and ended up staying because he liked the law and order, you'd still bitch about why there's a black guy.
You already have some sort of emotional reaction to this, and your post is just trying to rationalize, and pretend its reals and not feels. No reason to do that here, you are among your peers, who all virtue signal about how much they hate women and niggers all the time, why be ashamed of participating in the circlejerk and mask it?

Bold of you to assume I'm white or a wannabe trad dweeb, maybe not everyone on this site is a caricature. And no I wouldn't like it if it was done in this crass way, but the idea of a warrior woman or unusual race in a given context in antiquity is not impossible or ahistorical, it just needs to be done right. Your example just sucks bro.

 

[whydoibother]

Your example just sucks bro.

Literally how the life of the founder of Bulgaria played out, bro. Hostage exchange with Constantinople, trained there, returned with Roman institutions, won a battle and founded Bulgaria on the Danube.
Also that german guy that krauts pretend is a noble person and not a traitor barbarian, he had a similar case. Also that norwegian who was bodyguard at Constantinople and then went to die in some boat skirmish in the North Sea. Plenty of well documented historical cases that are exactly like my example.

Bold of you to assume I'm a caricature.

Good odds, considering the fauna on this website. Excuse me if I gambled wrong, 9 times out of 10 its true.

 

[ExposedBrainMatter]

Your example just sucks bro.

Literally how the life of the founder of Bulgaria played out, bro.

Fair enough but I just meant how you explained it, without context (and let's say using a random black guy as nu-devs are wont to do) it doesn't work, you have to be less lazy than "it's just like this past thing kinda". I guess I'm just saying I don't trust modern developers to do this at all, which is why I'm skeptical of this kind of thing, not because I must uphold the superiority of the white race. Unless I know for a fact the developer is a gigabrained author and student of history, stuff like this game can be written off as corny.

 

[whydoibother]

Your example just sucks bro.

Literally how the life of the founder of Bulgaria played out, bro.

Fair enough but I just meant how you explained it, without context (and let's say using a random black guy as nu-devs are wont to do) it doesn't work, you have to be less lazy than "it's just like this past thing kinda". I guess I'm just saying I don't trust modern developers to do this at all, which is why I'm skeptical of this kind of thing, not because I must uphold the superiority of the white race. Unless I know for a fact the developer is a gigabrained author and student of history, stuff like this game can be written off as corny.

But corny is fine for an Expeditions game. In the last game you found Arthur's sword and pulled it out of the rock after an elaborate ritual. In the one before that you found amazons from the city of gold or some such, if memory serves. These aren't documentaries, they are alt-history low fantasy RPG campaigns.

 

[ExposedBrainMatter]

But corny is fine for an Expeditions game.

There is a fine line between corny and campy and the former is never positive.

 

[Dr Schultz]

Ignoring the racial and sexual proprieties of a historical period is basically a cop out for addressing these complex issues. You could use these issues as an opportunity to strengthen the narrative and perhaps even gameplay, but instead you choose to make it a fantasy land playground that ignores uncomfortable truths. This is what people mean when they say video games are not art. Nobody would do this in other mediums (except for modern woke shit), so you are on the same level as a current Netflix show.

I really doubt this game will address why there are identities in odd places in an interesting way, which is the real problem.

Lets not pretend that if some soldier girl explains why she is a soldier, and a girl, despite this being unusual (with some Mulan story maybe), you will suddenly defend the game. If the black legionary has a quest and story about how he is the son of some chief and was sent to train in the barracks in a hostage exchange situation for a treaty, and ended up staying because he liked the law and order, you'd still bitch about why there's a black guy.
You already have some sort of emotional reaction to this, and your post is just trying to rationalize, and pretend its reals and not feels. No reason to do that here, you are among your peers, who all virtue signal about how much they hate women and niggers all the time, why be ashamed of participating in the circlejerk and mask it?

"What is an RPG?"
"Based on this paragraph from Livy about Greeks in Asia, Roman legionaries were not black. DEUS VULT!"

Ye olde RPG fans: "I wish this character creation had more options, I want to be a fat ugly bastard."
Neo-RPG fans: "Nooooo this character creator has too many options! Only athletic white men should be possible for this low fantasy alt-history roman campaign nooooo muh realismus!"

It's a thousand miles of desert crossed by trade routes centuries before Romans came into Africa.

We know from journals and material remains that Gaius Suetonius Paulinus, the guy who defeated Boudica, went to Senegal river and raided and traded there, and tried to establish a colony.
Another guy, Lucius Cornelius Balbus, fought wars against half of the African polities, and he established trade and a post at Niger river.
Both men lived and did their deeds before Christ, and moved enough humans around in forced conscriptions, tributes or slaves to trade, so that the point of hurrr Sahara impregnable barrier no human can pass is deboonked.

Also, though I can't find the historical sources at a glance, when Libya and Chad fought over some oasis settlements south of the desert the reports would frequently mention that those used to be Roman colonies and trade posts. In modern northern Chad.

Finally someone that knows what he's talking about...

For a moment, I considered to tell Roguey that Nubians ruled over Egypt for almost a century before Romans came to Africa and that you can still see signs of this period in the contemporary Egyptian population, but then I've realized that this would have been too much of a cultural shock. So I spared the poor soul

Ps: is the Norvegian guy Harald Hardrada? If you are referring to him, he died at Stanford trying to conquer England some months before William the Bastard.

 

[Rico66]

we wuz egyptian kangz and shieeeeeeeet

 

[Roguey]

Ye olde RPG fans: "I wish this character creation had more options, I want to be a fat ugly bastard."

Who the fuck was asking for this?

 

[Joggerino]

Why does it feel like there's something personal for Dr Schultz in proving that black people were all over the roman empire?

 

[IHaveHugeNick]

This looks like an interesting thread to subscr...