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Fallout Fallout 2 is way worse than I remember it.

Beans00

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Aug 27, 2008
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It is not that I care that much about writing... gameplay is way more important.

But, sometimes, writing in Fallout 2 really gives ground
Are we really pretending Fallout 1 has hyperserious and amazing writing?

Writing doesn't have to be award winning it needs to be functional and practical.
Aside from planescape and maybe deus ex 1 I'd really love to hear what other games have characters more enjoyable to talk to then fallout 1/2.

I've been on a bit of an RPG binge this year and really find myself missing Fallout 1/2 a lot of the time.
 

Beans00

Augur
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Messages
979
Writing doesn't have to be award winning it needs to be functional and practical.
What does this actually mean?

It means unnecessarily verbose writing can take away from the experience. Characters in fallout 1 talk like people actually talk(in my opinion anyways).

I haven't really paid attention to this thread since the early pages so I'm not sure what games you like or what the general argument has been...Aside from it involving underrail.
 
Joined
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It means unnecessarily verbose writing can take away from the experience. Characters in fallout 1 talk like people actually talk(in my opinion anyways).

I haven't really paid attention to this thread since the early pages so I'm not sure what games you like or what the general argument has been...Aside from it involving underrail.
So what qualifies as "unnecessarily verbose writing"?

The threads been full of nitpicking and headcanon like "I like Fallout 1 better because of reason x y or z" but turns out that any criticism about Fallout 2 can also be applied to 1 and these talking points likely come from the hindsight of people disillusioned by the impressions of others, meaning it's not really their own opinion.
I even compiled a long list of "immersion breaking references" in Fallout 1, proving that the only real difference is 2 is longer and therefore has more - and it was basically ignored even though it's the most repeated criticism about 2.

In general this kind of obsessing about games takes away what is even fun about playing them, I've enjoyed games and not bothered looking them up until much later and find people shitting on them immensely like their lives depended it. It seems the complaining fills some sort of personal void.

Thinking of playing 1 again just to try and see what people find so "unique" about it.
 

Ol' Willy

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Zionist Agent Vatnik
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The sloppiest part of Fallout 2 writing is Vault 13 and Vault 15. Every dialogue is in tertiary form: one extremely polite response - "thank you dear sir, may the heavens bless you", one neutral one - "whatever, man", and one really rude - "burn in hell you motherfucker!". Almost every dialogue in those two locations plays this scheme and it is really evident if you have Empathy perk

A91OFZAsniM.jpg


And of course, this form is nowhere to be seen in other locations

(having playthrough on KKKodex helps as I can shamelessly pull screenshots out of there :smug:)
 
Joined
Aug 27, 2021
Messages
698
I mean honestly are we pretending these lists of Fallout 2 flaws aren't curated from the billions of things people have written about the game, due to its incredible popularity and replayability? Are we pretending contrarians aren't extremely common on the internet, and that it's not common to call a clearly superior thing inferior to generate controversy?

Like fallout 2 is a better game than some Barbie game from the NES. But I could find a lot more criticism of fallout 2, because there's more stuff in it available for criticism. I doubt anyone was very disappointed by the barbie game, no matter how shit it was.

People don't bother as much with fallout 1 because it's a lesser game, that came out earlier. So fallout 2 reality was being compared with fallout 1 nostalgia from the moment it released. The writing in both is fairly crappy, but no worse than most video game writing.

Just like you won't find long diatribes about the failings of the story of Underrail. Why bother? Everyone knows its shit, there's nothing to say on the subject. But you'll find lots of discussion of individual perks, stats, builds, etc, because that's the game's strong suit. It'd be easy to just compile all the complaints to say "See, underrail's combat sucks, look how many bad things people have said about it".
 

SharkClub

Prophet
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Strap Yourselves In
Is there a comprehensive list someone can post of who worked on which locations? I know Avellone did the majority of New Reno and Vault City, was wondering who we have to blame for San Francisco and Vault 13.
 

Viata

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Messages
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Water Play Catarinense
323191.image0.png


I had to memorize that for calculus 2 and you have trouble remembering. 1- sneak, 2- lockpick 3- steal 8-repair ect...?
This is a bit off-topic, but more than half of those equations are unnecessary. The fact that someone is memorizing all of that by rote is a good indication that they don't understand what trigonometric functions are.
You don't need to memorize a single one of those equations. Draw a circle and a triangle is all you need to find all of them.
image.png

Unit circle:
image.png

From this you get all periodicity identities, co-function identities, reciprocal identities and even-odd identities.
Since it's an unit circle, you know that every point satisfies the equation:
x² + y² = 1. So, for a given point (x0,y0), we know that exist a θ such that x0 = cos(θ) and y0 = sin(θ), thus:
1 = x0² + y0² = cos²(θ) + sin²(θ). So you also get the pythagorean identities.

image.png

Law of sines:
Area of triangle is base * height / 2. So:
A = c/2 * (b*sin(α)) = b/2 * (a*sin(γ)) = a/2 * (c*sin(β))
Multiplying both sides by 2/abc:
A2/abc = sin(α)/a = sin(γ)/c = sin(β)/b

image.png

Law of cosines:
This is the only one that applying good old geometry is more hardwork than just going for the vector method:
c = a-b
Taking the dot product of both sides with c:
<c,c> = <c,a-b>
and since c = a-b:
<c,c> = <a-b,a-b>
Now, applying the dot product properties:
<c,c> = <a,a> + <b,b> - 2<a,b>
Now, <c,c> = c², <a,a> = a², <b,b> = b² and <a,b> = a*b*cos(θ), where θ is the angle between vector a and vector b, we have:
c² = a² + b² - 2*a*b*cos(θ)


image.png


Sum and difference formulas:
A = (cos(α), sin(α))
B = (cos(β), sin(β))
Now, distance between A and B:
AB² = (cos(α) - cos(β))² + (sin(α) - sin(β))²
AB² = (cos²(α) + sin²(α)) + (cos²(β) + sin²(β)) - 2(cos(α)cos(β) + sin(α)sin(β))
AB² = 2 - 2(cos(α)cos(β) + sin(α)sin(β))
Now, applying the law of cosines on AB:
AB² = A² + B² - 2cos(α-β)
Since A² = B² = 1, we have:
2 - 2cos(α-β) = 2 - 2(cos(α)cos(β) + sin(α)sin(β))
Thus:
cos(α-β) = cos(α)cos(β) + sin(α)sin(β)
You can get the rest by applying the same idea.
Now, you can see how to get the double-angle formula, product to sum formula, sum to product formula and half-angle formulas all from the sum and difference formulas. You can also get the co-function identities from here if you want.

Heron's formula(the last one in the area of triangle part) can be proved using law of sines and is left as an exercise for the reader.
As you can see, you can calculate all of that by drawing a circle and a triangle. And yes, I have autism.
 
Last edited:

Naraya

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wishbonetail

Learned
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671
In my annual Fallout franchise binges i usually omit F2. Maybe it's because i used to play it to lv 70+ back in a day, or maybe because of how incoherent it feels. Tribal punk, Mobsters with tompsons, porn studio, chinatown with cheezy kungfu showdown, ghouls running nuclear power plant, Tom and Nicole, Habologists spaceshuttle, talkin deathclaws, scorpion grossmeister, mouthgag from supermutant, speech increases after manure shoveling. It doesn't feel like postapoc world anymore, more like theme park. I used to like it, when i was younger but nowadays i would prefer Fo1, Resurrection, Atom Rpg, or New Vegas. They're much closer to Fallout's preamble "war never changes".
 

JarlFrank

I like Thief THIS much
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Steve gets a Kidney but I don't even get a tag.
I played Fallout 2 first because I was initially put off by Fallout 1's time limit (I was young and stupid). So theoretically I should prefer Fallout 2, as people tend to like the game of a franchise they played first the most.

I've grown to prefer Fallout 1 over the years, though.
(It's the exact same with Thief 2 and Thief 1 for me, funnily enough - played the second game first, grew to prefer the original over time)

There are various reasons for that, but the essence can be boiled down to: Fallout 2 is not a tonally consistent sequel to Fallout 1.

I would even go as far as to say there are three distinct Fallout canons (if we only consider the mainline games, I haven't played Tactics and the Diablo clone so I have no opinion on them):
- Fallout 1, which stands alone
- Fallout 2 and New Vegas
- Fallout 3 and 4

Fallout 1 was the creation of Tim Cain, Leonard Boyarsky, and Jason D. Anderson. It was tonally mostly serious, with some humor and pop culture references sprinkled throughout. The worldbuilding was simple but effective. It's a post-apocalyptic world, you are the citizen of one of several vaults that were built before the apocalypse to serve as shelters for select elements of the population, intended to preserve humanity from certain doom. But the world outside did not entirely perish, people survived in the wasteland and built new communities in the ruins. It's all very down to earth, heavily inspired by the vibe of the Mad Max movies. Small independent communities scraping by. Trade exists, but there's no governmental organization beyond independent city-states. Raiders pose a danger to travelers, as do mutated animals. The problems that exist in this world are either at a personal level or at a community level. A village having problems watering their crops; a town facing corruption from within; etc. Even the Master, whose plan threatens the entire playable area (I'm saying "playable area" because "entire wasteland" would imply a too large area, even if the Master were successful his plans wouldn't impact very far beyond the borders of California for logistical reasons), is mostly a local threat. It is ultimately a story of communities trying to survive and rebuild in a ruined world. The tone is generally serious, despite the splotches of dark humor and Monty Python easter eggs (that most people never even find, their place in the original game is often exaggerated). The writing is not without levity, but it's playing the post-apocalyptic genre completely straight. It is, basically, a 1950s pulp adventure mixed with 1980s post-apocalyptic genre tropes.

Cainarskyson left the company after Fallout 1 and went on to found Troika. Without the three main brains of the game, Fallout 2 ended up a completely different beast. It's playing its setting a lot less straight and put more emphasis on the humor. Monty Python references in Fallout 1 were merely an easter egg that could be stumbled upon with a high luck and outdoorsman score, but Fallout 2 wears its pop culture references on its sleeve. The Hubologists as an obvious reference to Scientology, openly existing in one of the game's major locations. Parodies of some elements of the original Fallout, like a talking deathclaw, showing that the developers didn't take the subject matter as seriously as Cainarskyson did. Then there's stuff like New Reno and its 1930s gangster culture that feels like the developers just decided to put in anything that seemed cool to them at the time. The Wanamingos too, which are... aliens? Again, aliens in Fallout 1 were a rarely encountered easter egg intended as a reference to 1950s science fiction tropes, which perfectly fits the 1950s pulp adventure style Fallout went for. Fallout 2's references and sources of inspiration, on the other hand, are all over the place. It's not half as consistent in tone and atmosphere as Fallout 1 was. It's still a good game and has some top notch quest design, but tonally it feels more like a parody on the post-apocalyptic genre than a straight play on it. Fallout 2 also introduced a bunch of lore elements that weren't there in the original, like the Vaults actually being government experiments.

New Vegas had several of the people who worked on Fallout 2 in its team, and is the logical continuation of that game. You can easily trace every element of worldbuilding, storytelling, quest design etc from Fallout 2 to New Vegas and draw the connections. Tonally they are extremely similar: inspirations cobbled together from various sources, rather than one central theme that holds everything together. Lots of edgy humor mixed into the writing and worldbuilding, making parts of the world feel a little too silly. A vibe of post-post apocalypse, where the stage of dealing with the collapse is already over and society has stabilized enough to now face the problems of an established civilization. This already began in Fallout 2, with New Reno, Vault City, and the NCR, and it continues in an even more pronounced way in New Vegas, with the NCR, Caesar's Legion, and Mr. House's independent Vegas. It is no longer about a small community not having enough water for their crops, but about landowner associations holding all the rights to the crop fields which leads to organizational problems for the farmers. The story theme is not about survival and adventure in a destroyed world, but about the rebuilding of society in a world that rose from the ashes. Fallout 2 and New Vegas are very similar in that theme and in their treatment of it.

Fallout 3 and 4 meanwhile are Bethesda's more juvenile interpretation of both games. They're basically cargo cult games that take elements from Fallout 1 and 2, mix them together without understanding what made them work, and are basically a pastiche of the post apocalyptic genre. Fallout 4 is, surprisingly, a lot better in its worldbuilding than Fallout 3, but the writing and quest design is very aimless and basically a cargo cult of New Vegas. It's just a very surface level take on the Fallout series, haha super mutants are cool explosions are fun!
 

smaug

Secular Koranism with Israeli Characteristics
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This seems to be the general thread for Fallout, so I’ll just post my updates here. Played Fallout 1 & playing 2 for the first time.

+Currently in New Reno. My favorite part of the game so far is the interconnected politics and relationships between towns/settlements so far. Massive incline over Fallout 1’s more loose and disconnected world.

-/+Companion updates are great, but still a bit primitive.

-Talking heads quality has majorly declined, except for an Enclave Soldier I encountered at a power plant.

+The Map is yuge, I’ve only explored half of it and it’s still filled with interesting stuff.

+I was told I missed out on Bishop’s quest (after he attacks me no matter what) because of my dialogue with Thomas Moore hours earlier with no way to remedy it.:lol::lol::lol:
:incline:

+The quest of this game is still intriguing and complex, as I still don’t know what the Enclave is (or does), or where a Gecko is.

-The beginning is a slog though, took a couple hours to pick up.

Playing a charismatic speech oriented character (with exploration feats) because I played a pure gunslinger in FO1. Not looking at spoilers, obviously. I think I read some of this thread a really long time ago, but don’t recall any details in particular.
 

Ryzer

Arcane
Joined
May 1, 2020
Messages
5,451
Fallout New Vegas is an overrated mess, crappy engine, janky gameplay, shady code and terrible open world filled with hidden walls everywhere. It's nowhere near as good as Fallout 1 let alone considering it a spiritual successor. I believe this game get praised so high because its concept is pretty good on paper but terrible on release with cut content at almost every corners.
 

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