Game News Fallout: New Vegas - By Obsidian, For Bethesda

[MetalCraze]

Educate yourself, dumbfuck:

http://www.rpgcodex.net/content.php?id=147

Yes Sawyer took over 6 months before the game release, and?

NWN2 would've been a far better product had Sawyer been in charge since Day 1, rather than having the unfortunate job of cleaning up a mess and getting it ready to ship.

Yes it's a fault of everyone else but not Sawyer. Show me a proof that it would be different if Sawyer worked on it since Day 1 other than acting like a retarded fanboi with "OMG it's everybody else's fault" and "they just didn't have enough time!" considering that Sawyer himself said there that critical amount of time was spent adding bugs to Aurora Engine which would've happened anyway because licensing an engine isn't something a designer decides.
Besides as Sawyer says it himself he usually concentrates on technical things. Oh and he also redesigned the final battle which in the end version was console-like shit with "solve casual puzzles"
Sawyer also related to quite a number of not-so-good/mediocre games (according to MobyGames)
He also was a Lead Designer of IWD2 which is the worst part of IWD series and is quite boring.

 

[Foamhead]

Sawyer was a lead designer on NWN2 OC. I can't fucking believe they are letting him near Fallout. A shame.

I think the lead designer during most of the project was a guy who went to work at Bioware almost at the end of the development cycle. Sawyer received the unpleasant task of getting something they could at least ship.

Edit: Ferret Baudoin was the name.

When Skyway posts a "fact" anyone who has been here long enough knows to just LOL and ignore it.

Helll Ultima VII had shitty, shitty combat.But the good writing and quests and exploration still make it a great game.

Looking forward to this. I just hope I don't have to own Fallout 3, because I still refuse to play/buy that piece of shit, or any Zenimax game. Except for this one.

You have to go easy on him since he can only get a dollar for each blow job he gives. Imagine getting a good but not great title like NWN 2 after sucking 60+ dicks, you'd have it in for Obsidian too.

 

[Silellak]

Educate yourself, dumbfuck:

http://www.rpgcodex.net/content.php?id=147

Yes Sawyer took over 6 months before the game release, and?

Once again you manage to reveal you know absolutely nothing about software development of any sort. 6 months - especially as a project manager of a project you haven't been a part of - is nothing. A significant part of that time is spent just getting up to date on how everything works, much less trying to take the reigns on such a product and release something that actually functions.

I don't give a flying fuck what Sawyer has or hasn't worked on in the past, I don't follow his work, I just know that it's ridiculous place blame on him for most of NWN2's issues. Based on this interview, it seems his ideas would have only improved the game. If he fucked up other games he was in charge of, I don't know or care about it. But you blaming him for NWN2's failings is just absurd.

It's sad that people who have so little idea what goes on behind the scenes at software companies are more than willing to shit all over the people who work at them.

 

[Dionysus]

And your point is? Bloodlines wasn't meant to be a game that emulates the p&p mechanics. Fallout, on the other hand...

The point is that an FP action-RPG isn't inherently bad, even if it is based on a TB P&P game.

Why, has the concept become outdated in your humble opinion? You're right, they should stick to Beth's ingenious vision.

No. They shouldn't strictly follow the design docs of a >10-year-old game because they aren't making or remaking that game. They are making a new game. If you would like to play a game that closely adheres to the design docs of FO1, then you should play FO1. You should not necessarily expect such a thing when playing a different game made by a different developer >10 years later.

They shouldn't waste their time with TB.

Todd, is that you?

They have a short dev cycle for this project. They will have trouble producing a good game in that amount of time if they spend a lot of energy on trying to fit a square peg into a round hole in order to placate a handful of fans that want a combat system that Obsidian hasn't shown any interest in making.

 

[aries202]

As I understand it, Fallout 3's engine was (is) the Gamebryo engine, and this engine can be tweaked to show an isometric perspective and to use TB combat - just like in some RTS games?

As for Fallout: New Vegas the announcement says that this is new game, not an add-on to Fallout 3.

 

[Darth Roxor]

As I understand it, Fallout 3's engine was (is) the Gamebryo engine, and this engine can be tweaked to show an isometric perspective and to use TB combat - just like in some RTS games?

TB combat in RTS games?

But yes, Civilization IV uses Gamebryo and it is both isometric and turnbased

 

[lepr]

Obsidian once again decides to make a game sequel from a borrowed franchise with a borrowed engine, makes them once more look like they are just a smaller company division for hire.

They're going from patron to patron doing mercenary work, and that's Obsidian for you: The worlds first method cRPG Development House

And your point is? Bloodlines wasn't meant to be a game that emulates the p&p mechanics. Fallout, on the other hand...

Ever seen the movie Blade Runner. By your logic it's terrible; with barely even a cosmetic similarity to the novel on which it claims to be based. No I'm not saying V.A.T.S. or whatever they call is better then Fallout's turn based combat, I couldn't presume to since I've never played Fallout 3. V.A.T.S. probably does suck something badly, but it doesn't matter; Planescape: Torment had lame combat mechanics, yet it's the best game in existence.
This announcement may not be a reason to run around naked on the streets and scream until your lungs burst, but it is the best Fallout related news for about a decade.

 

[Oarfish]

Biggest problem with VATS for me was the lack of variety of effects and the fact that only head shots were worthwhile at all levels. At least in the originals you messed about with leg / groin / head shots at lower levels before you could shoot everybody in the eyes.

As for obsidian working on a fallout, I can't wait. The F3 engine is significantly better than anything they have had to work with before.

 

[Black]

The point is that an FP action-RPG isn't inherently bad, even if it is based on a TB P&P game.

The point is that going FP RT is against Fallout's design and going against and calling it Fallout is bad.
This talk has been done over so many times it's not even funny any more.

 

[Shannow]

He also was a Lead Designer of IWD2 which is the worst part of IWD series and is quite boring.

Which he again took over very near the end of development. That said, from all IE-games IWD2 made the best of the engine. Story was solid for a dungeon crawler. Art direction was superb. As far as 3rd ed. games go IWD2 is only second to ToEE gameplay wise. And that without being a bug-fest.
"Worst part of IWD series", even if I agreed with you, is a solid dungeon crawling game that is far above average and surpasses many previous and probably all later games of its genre.
You should really not let yourself get sidetracked so much and focus on how Obsidian yet have to produce a solid, original IP/ a finished game that deserves high praises from a Codex point of view. Attacking devs nobody knows (or if they do know them, they probably like them) and solid games that weren't made by Obsidian is certainly no way of convincing people of your opinion.

/Sawyer-IWD2-fanboy

 

[Vault Dweller]

Last time I checked, Bloodlines and Gothic did not have a GURPS-inspired ruleset - Fallout, being a game strongly tied to the pen-and-paper experience...

Check again then.

... featured an 'isometric' (trimetric, to be more precise) view of the world for a reason. Yes, I'm referring to turn-based combat system, which works especially nicely with the top-down perspective.

Is there a point?

Sure, it would be super nice to have a proper Fallout game - turn-based and isometric - but these features are not what made Fallout such a great and memorable game. The dialogues, role-playing, and atmosphere did.

VATS goes against the design philosophy which led to the creation of the Fallout series in the first place.

What the fuck are you talking about? Fallout wasn't just a turn-based shoot 'em up. If that's all you saw in the game, then you didn't see much.

The option to enable the TB mode should be there. It's doable, it's something that can be achieved.

It will not be there. Deal with it.

Will they have the courage to set things right? The decision lies in their hands.

*rolls eyes.

 

[sheek]

Is this your way of preparing us for the revelation that AoD is now first person RTwP?

 

[MetalCraze]

Once again you manage to reveal you know absolutely nothing about software development of any sort. 6 months - especially as a project manager of a project you haven't been a part of - is nothing. A significant part of that time is spent just getting up to date on how everything works, much less trying to take the reigns on such a product and release something that actually functions.

Oh man - one year is enough for Obsidian to make a game, but six months is not enough for a designer to fix something in the game? Basically what you are saying is that Sawyer didn't do anything for a game in six months because a game was bad on every possible side. I never said he should've rebuilt everything from scratch, but damn six months in Obsidian case is like eternity to just redesign bits like making much less ork spawns in Act1 in cave or making castle and trial meaningful not mentioning making your characters DIE in combat. So tell me - such minor but important improvements are not possible in six months?

I don't give a flying fuck what Sawyer has or hasn't worked on in the past, I don't follow his work, I just know that it's ridiculous place blame on him for most of NWN2's issues.

No - he was part of the team for enough time, he also should take the blame. Also if you don't care on which projects he worked in the past how the fuck can you say that he would've saved this project? This is just a retarded fanboism you know.

Based on this interview, it seems his ideas would have only improved the game.

Yes on his interview six months after the game release and interview is just words you know and what makes you think he wasn't just saving Obsidian's ass. Show me the real deal.

It's sad that people who have so little idea what goes on behind the scenes at software companies are more than willing to shit all over the people who work at them.

Six months were enough for moddies to make Oblivion much less piece of shit than it is. One year was enough to make MotB which was much better than NWN2 OC. One year was enough to make KotOR2 which was better than NWN2 OC despite being mediocre. Are you telling me that six months was not enough to improve at least something in NWN2 OC?
Sawyer even managed to ruin King Of Shadows in the end.

 

[Darth Roxor]

One year was enough to make KotOR2

 

[WhiskeyWolf]

Imagine Codex with no skyway.

 

[MetalCraze]

Which he again took over very near the end of development.

Really? AFAIK he is the only guy credited as a lead designer there, which is different for NWN2 OC. And he also takes the most credit for IWD2 from people.

That said, from all IE-games IWD2 made the best of the engine. Story was solid for a dungeon crawler.

No it wasn't. Story and writing were bland and subtracted from the game from what I saw. I've never managed to finish the game because of the boredom and at places it was just turning into Diablo so I can't comment on the -whole- plot, but from what I saw during 2+ acts plot and writing were boring.

Art direction was superb.

No objections here.

As far as 3rd ed. games go IWD2 is only second to ToEE gameplay wise.

Indeed, and only because other 3rd ed. games are pieces of shit gameplay-wise.

And that without being a bug-fest.

Which should be a norm, not something unbelievable like today.

"Worst part of IWD series", even if I agreed with you, is a solid dungeon crawling game that is far above average and surpasses many previous and probably all later games of its genre.

Later yes, but not previous. Especially not earlier, turnbased DnD dungeon crawlers.
The problem with IWD2 is that at quite a number of times it was throwing literally hordes of enemies at you and real-time mechanics didn't help much because you had to twitch spacebar which was annoying in a real-time game - or otherwise you were risking of getting some of your characters being surrounded by enemies while you were baby-sitting other ~5. Basically it was like Diablo with fun taken out from it.

You should really not let yourself get sidetracked so much and focus on how Obsidian yet have to produce a solid, original IP/ a finished game that deserves high praises from a Codex point of view. Attacking devs nobody knows (or if they do know them, they probably like them) and solid games that weren't made by Obsidian is certainly no way of convincing people of your opinion.

Except everyone knows Obsidian and Black Isle. And there are people who like them, but there are also people who are being fanboy-ish about them to the point of double-standards like if Obsidian does something right - like with MotB they go "omg they are geniuses", but when Obsidian totally fuck ups every other game they just go "omg they didn't have enough time/it's all Atari/Sega/LucasArts fault" or just spam the topic with pictures/make "omg you are stupid" posts or quote out of context like with Darth Roxor above. Much like ESF'ers.

 

[Robot]

snip

Dude... think about what you're saying. You have no idea what state the game was in 6 months before gold. You're basing your opinion on the finished product, not the finished product less six months of development.

 

[Darth Roxor]

quote out of context like with Darth Roxor above.

skyway tactic #37: when in doubt, claim that you've been quoted out of context.

 

[garren]

My computer broke a couple of days ago so I have been offline, I just got online and BOOM! Bethesda and Obsidian! Wow, wtf? :shock:

 

[Silellak]

Six months were enough for moddies to make Oblivion much less piece of shit than it is. One year was enough to make MotB which was much better than NWN2 OC. One year was enough to make KotOR2 which was better than NWN2 OC despite being mediocre. Are you telling me that six months was not enough to improve at least something in NWN2 OC?
Sawyer even managed to ruin King Of Shadows in the end.

Are you seriously comparing modding a game to working as project manager on a full-fledged product? Seriously?

KotoR2 and MotB were both based on an existing engine. Creating a game for an existing engine is entirely different than creating a game that includes a player client, DM client, and builer's toolset. Yes, the game was based off the NWN1 engine, but it's not the same as KotoR -> KotoR2 and certainly not the same as NWN2 OC -> NWN2 MotB.

Since you insist on revealing your complete lack of knowledge of how software development works, let me give you a crash course. Fixing a broken project can often be much, much harder than building one from scratch. Just ask developer who has ever had to work with inherited legacy code. The major reason is, if you remove something that doesn't work, it can break something else that would seem to be entirely unrelated. This issue is only compounded when you join the project 6 months before release and you have no idea what areas of the code might impact other areas. Often the best case is to tear it all done and start from scratch, but sadly, 6 months is not nearly enough time to rip apart everything that doesn't work, put it back together, and hope the product can still ship when it needs to ship.

Without knowing what NWN2 was like before Sawyer came aboard, your claim that "he could've at least improved SOMETHING" is just empty, fact-less bullshit. You even claim he "Ruined the King of Shadows" at the end, but that's without knowing what the boss fight was like before he revamped it. For all you know - and what it sounds like - he did improve things fairly dramatically during those 6 months. By all accounts, when he got the project, the thing barely ran. I imagine most of his time was spent getting the thing to be playable, with little time left to revamp gameplay features.

And sure, I can only base how he would've run the project on what he claims in his interview, but at least that's something more than "I can't believe the'yre giving Sawyer Fallout after he ruined NWN2 RAAAAR NERD RAGE".

 

[VonVentrue]

Last time I checked, Bloodlines and Gothic did not have a GURPS-inspired ruleset - Fallout, being a game strongly tied to the pen-and-paper experience...

Check again then.

Because Troika's goal with Bloodlines was to faithfully incorporate the whole tabletop experience into a computer game, am I right?
Besides, would you mind explaining to me how Gothic fits into your argument?

Sure, it would be super nice to have a proper Fallout game - turn-based and isometric - but these features are not what made Fallout such a great and memorable game. The dialogues, role-playing, and atmosphere did.

... AND the ruleset. That's something you can't choose to conspicuously ignore.
Let me point it out for you, in hi-res black and white: SPECIAL=TURN BASED.

VATS goes against the design philosophy which led to the creation of the Fallout series in the first place.

What the fuck are you talking about? Fallout wasn't just a turn-based shoot 'em up. If that's all you saw in the game, then you didn't see much.

Since you like 'fucking' so much - how THE FUCK did you draw that conclusion?
For an explanation, check the paragraph above.

On a side note, please refrain from agressive behaviour - I don't feel like quarrelling with you, a person I hold in high esteem.

The option to enable the TB mode should be there. It's doable, it's something that can be achieved.

It will not be there. Deal with it.

It's not Obsidian's fault that Bethesda somehow took possession of a devilishly twisted form of lapis philosophorum (capable of turning gold into a steaming pile of shit) and makes use of it during the development process of their games, but they shouldn't blindly accept F3's gameplay formula.

 

[MetalCraze]

Are you seriously comparing modding a game to working as project manager on a full-fledged product? Seriously?

KotoR2 and MotB were both based on an existing engine. Creating a game for an existing engine is entirely different than creating a game that includes a player client, DM client, and builer's toolset. Yes, the game was based off the NWN1 engine, but it's not the same as KotoR -> KotoR2 and certainly not the same as NWN2 OC -> NWN2 MotB.

No what I'm saying is that he could at least really -improved- something.

Fixing a broken project can often be much, much harder than building one from scratch. Just ask developer who has ever had to work with inherited legacy code. The major reason is, if you remove something that doesn't work, it can break something else that would seem to be entirely unrelated.

So stuff like cutting the number of orcs in half in those caves in Act1 would've ruined something? Or fixing an AI which TonyK's mod did a bit (which didn't ruin anything btw) would've ruined something? Or making you skip a boring combat if you win a trial? Or get a game over if you lose a trial instead of railroading you into the same fight.
Those flaws are so noticeable that I doubt that Sawyer didn't see them.

but sadly, 6 months is not nearly enough time to rip apart everything that doesn't work, put it back together, and hope the product can still ship when it needs to ship.

Can you read? I've never said it is enough to change everything, in fact I said the opposite thing.

Without knowing what NWN2 was like before Sawyer came aboard, your claim that "he could've at least improved SOMETHING" is just empty, fact-less bullshit. You even claim he "Ruined the King of Shadows" at the end, but that's without knowing what the boss fight was like before he revamped it. For all you know - and what it sounds like - he did improve things fairly dramatically during those 6 months.

And this isn't a fact-less bullshit? Maybe NWN2 was better before he came - have you thought about that?
Besides the end product has such glaring flaws that it is hard to say that he improved anything at all and easier to say that he either did nothing or made it worse - because NWN2 OC was bad on every side. From terrible combat where Obsidian even cut out such stuff as enemies blocking your blows which looked quite good in NWN1 (not speaking about combat mechanics which was beyond terrible, just like AI) - to the generic story and characters and fake non-linearity - to the game turning into a bad hack'n'slash at times. The fact is - the project ended up bad.
And whatever the ending was before it ended up also bad and it was during Sawyer, maybe it was good before that? But of course it is everyone else's fault/not enuff time.

By all accounts, when he got the project, the thing barely ran. I imagine most of his time was spent getting the thing to be playable, with little time left to revamp gameplay features.

Oh really? When NWN2 OC came out it barely run. So basically what are you saying here is that there were no changes? And Sawyer did -nothing- during six months?

Actually judging by the interview when Sawyer came nothing was finished in-game design-wise and as Sawyer said: "so I had to "finish the map" and determine what we were going to keep/cut." Oh yes so it was him who decided to keep amounts of orks in those shitty caves in the game alright. And now tell me why shouldn't I blame him?

Also
"I honestly wish I could have cut the warlock class. I know people were really excited about it, but it took up a lot of my time, programmer time, and artist time."
So basically what he is saying he is also responsible for the most boring class implementation in NWN2 OC? Damn, Fallout is in safe hands.

 

[Jaesun]

Skyway. Skyway never changes.

 

[Lurkar]

Skyway. Skyway never changes.

The end of the Codex happened pretty much as we had predicted. Too many trolls, not enough good posts or moderators to go around.

 

[Thrasher]

@Silellak

Nice to a hear an honest voice of reason here, rather than the typical neurotic whiney bullshit.