Game News Fallout: New Vegas - By Obsidian, For Bethesda

[Jim Cojones]

Imagine Codex with no skyway.

"I see trees of green..."
Just joking. It's good to have him there. Really.

 

[Gay-Lussac]

Imagine Codex with no skyway.

"I see trees of green..."
Just joking. It's good to have him there. Really.

Skyway alt detected.

 

[Vault Dweller]

Because Troika's goal with Bloodlines was to faithfully incorporate the whole tabletop experience into a computer game, am I right?

No. It was with ToEE though. Turn-based and isometric. As good as Fallout? Or better?

Besides, would you mind explaining to me how Gothic fits into your argument?

Neither turn-based nor isometric, yet surprisingly good.

... AND the ruleset. That's something you can't choose to conspicuously ignore.
Let me point it out for you, in hi-res black and white: SPECIAL=TURN BASED.

Ok. You pointed. Now explain. What makes SPECIAL TB only? The 7 stats? Skills?

VATS goes against the design philosophy which led to the creation of the Fallout series in the first place.

What the fuck are you talking about? Fallout wasn't just a turn-based shoot 'em up. If that's all you saw in the game, then you didn't see much.

Since you like 'fucking' so much - how THE FUCK did you draw that conclusion?

*sigh

You said that VATS - non-TB mode - goes against the design philosophy - not Fallout's, but the one that led to Fallout. The only possible conclusion is that TB is the foundation of Fallout and everything that Fallout is about.

On a side note, please refrain from agressive behaviour - I don't feel like quarrelling with you, a person I hold in high esteem.

a) Just because I said "fuck" doesn't mean that I've switched to EXTREME MODE and that some serious collar grabbing is about to take place.
b) If you hold me in high esteem then consider my points. I like TB as much if not more than the next Codexer and spit on RT crap, but Fallout was not about TB combat and you shouldn't dismiss Obsidian's Fallout game just because it's not TB.

It's not Obsidian's fault that Bethesda somehow took possession of a devilishly twisted form of lapis philosophorum (capable of turning gold into a steaming pile of shit) and makes use of it during the development process of their games, but they shouldn't blindly accept F3's gameplay formula.

What choice do they have? Accept the deal and try to make a decent Fallout game (after all these years) or say no to the deal. Would the latter be a better outcome?

 

[Silellak]

And this isn't a fact-less bullshit? Maybe NWN2 was better before he came - have you thought about that?
Besides the end product has such glaring flaws that it is hard to say that he improved anything at all and easier to say that he either did nothing or made it worse - because NWN2 OC was bad on every side.

Is it really so hard for you to admit you know absolutely nothing about software development? Go ahead. Really, you'll feel better.

6 months before release of a product is, for the most part, bug fixing, cutting features and optimizing. This means trivial things like "make the end of the trial quest more interesting" and "cut down the number of Orcs in one area of the game" gets put by the wayside for more exciting features like "make the game run smoother than 1 FPS" and "cut out a class/feat/feature that makes the game crash".

How long would it take to cut down the number of Orcs in the cave? Admittedly, very little. However, when you're focused on a hundred other, far more important things, then things like that simply get pushed aside. Why? Because they don't ruin the game for anyone other than the most whiny little douchebags. When a project drops in your lap with only 6 months until release, you don't worry about shit like "does this sidequest have enough satisfying endings", you worry about shit like "can you play through the game beginning to end without any horrifying, game-ending bugs".

There are a lot of specific detail things I would have liked to address, but in a game with a million details, it wasn't feasible.

Like it or not, most of the bullshit you constantly bitch about and call "glaring flaws" are considered trivial in the grand scheme of software development. Normally, I wouldn't resort to telling someone "If you don't like it, do better." It's a cheap argument, and plenty of valid criticisms are unfairly dismissed that way. However, when you've reached the point of personally insulting a person, by name, when you clearly know absolutely nothing about the sort of work they do or how much effect they do or don't have on the development process, then you need to either educate yourself, or shut the fuck up while the big boys talk about shit you could never hope to understand.

 

[MetalCraze]

6 months before release of a product is, for the most part, bug fixing, cutting features and optimizing. This means trivial things like "make the end of the trial quest more interesting" and "cut down the number of Orcs in one area of the game" gets put by the wayside for more exciting features like "make the game run smoother than 1 FPS" and "cut out a class/feat/feature that makes the game crash".

I see you've missed Josh Sawyer saying that he was working on finishing area designs which includes what is in there. Selective reading?

When a project drops in your lap with only 6 months until release, you don't worry about shit like "does this sidequest have enough satisfying endings", you worry about shit like "can you play through the game beginning to end without any horrifying, game-ending bugs".

Obviously Sawyer and the rest of Obsidian never bothered to do even that in 6 months because the game came out unplayable, and version 1.01 was even unpatchable which fucked up every gamer in a region where that version came out.

Like it or not, most of the bullshit you constantly bitch about and call "glaring flaws" are considered trivial in the grand scheme of software development.

Yes gamestopping bugs, lack of balance, dumb AI etc. - all are trivial things in the grand scheme of -game- development.

Normally, I wouldn't resort to telling someone "If you don't like it, do better." It's a cheap argument, and plenty of valid criticisms are unfairly dismissed that way. However, when you've reached the point of personally insulting a person, by name, when you clearly know absolutely nothing about the sort of work they do or how much effect they do or don't have on the development process, then you need to either educate yourself, or shut the fuck up while the big boys talk about shit you could never hope to understand.

OK, that does it - you are trying to teach me how a game development works so I have to ask - are you a game designer? Do you know how game designers work? What games have your studio released where you were a game designer.
Otherwise your points are no more valid than mine.

 

[Edward_R_Murrow]

Time for more thread-shitting.

Might be nitpicking, but that statement is false on quite a few levels.

Yeah I went a little too far on that. I think "Codex types who could stomach Fallout 3's core gameplay (meaning the combat, exploration, and looting) will likely find a version of Fallout 3 more palatable in New Vegas" would be a decent amendment, no?

That said, from all IE-games IWD2 made the best of the engine.

I can sort of agree with this. The scripted things like the war drums, the drider thing, making your own golem companion, and upper Dragon's Eye were really great. They did a lot of good work pulling extra stuff out of the Infinity Engine. Though I feel some of the stuff was really awfully done. The last area was terrible, the end battle completely hosed good-aligned parties (and was broken as fuck), and some scripted stuff like the time warp or the monk challenges were awful.

It definitely pushed the boundaries more than any other IE game, but sometimes it went headlong into the bad territory, while BG2, while ultimately more conservative, was more consistent in it's quality. If all of Icewind Dale 2 was as good as the first two chapters, it would have been astounding. Still was pretty great.

Story was solid for a dungeon crawler.

Huh. I liked the "small stories" in IWD2, but the overall plot to me was really contrived and it seems like they really tried too hard in some cases. I think trying to make a morally ambiguous antagonizing force was kind of a bad idea for a linear dungeon crawler too. Still wasn't awful, but I kinda liked IWD1's better. It fit better.

As far as 3rd ed. games go IWD2 is only second to ToEE gameplay wise.

I liked IWD2 better. To me a good combat system is nothing without good encounter design that challenges the player to use it. Sacrilege, I know.

Biggest problem with VATS for me was the lack of variety of effects and the fact that only head shots were worthwhile at all levels.

Actually, playing devil's advocate here, they weren't always the best. Most of the time, yes, but not always. Shooting the enemies' gun if they are a ranged enemy was pretty broken, seeing as the goofy physics would often send their weapon far out of their reach, giving you more time to...shoot them in the head.

Sometimes leg shots worked. Sometimes they didn't. It was weird. I would cripple a deathclaw's legs and it would still be running full speed, but the next deathclaw would lose movement speed. So here, running backwards and head shots prevailed.

My problem with VATS was that it's an all around shitty idea and a cop-out at throwing a bone to the turn-based crowd.

VATS was well designed, but too easy.

Surely you jest. VATS is an abomination design-wise. You can't just harden it up. It's principally flawed.

The only issue with VATS was that it was basically a cheat mode, but that's the easiest thing to fix. Remove insane to hit penalties from the enemies and you're half way there.

Uh-huh. You've still got the damage reduced to 10 percent. So I assume that's "the other half". Then what? Take that away? Then you're left with a targeted shot that seems to do extra damage and has a better critical chance. But at the cost of making your character a sitting duck.

For example, try fighting a super mutant with a mingun. If you step out into the open and just take a few shots at it, you take a lot of damage. That's what VATS would be like if you took out the "easy mode", making it pretty much useless and shifting even more emphasis towards FPS twitch skills. Why use VATS when you can just circle-strafe and pop-off guaranteed head shots? Why bother with VATS when you can use cover that Bethesda's Radiant AI can't understand?

The "easy mode" was the only thing that made VATS worthwhile in the first place, unless somebody had serious trouble with FPS (and I mean serious; Fallout 3 on Very Hard felt like Halo on Easy). It sure wasn't the cheesy gore, or the "I can't believe it's not a cutscene!" camera angles.

Again, I prefer turn-based, but well done VATS is more entertaining than a straight shooter.

Uhhhh....I hope you mean this only in the context of Fallout 3. Even still, VATS took longer than just FPSing out so.....

Simplified SPECIAL should be easy to tweak. A modder can do it, so even if Bethesda says no to such tweaks, Obsidian can do a small unofficial mods for the hardcore crowd.

I don't think it's that easy. Every tweak to SPECIAL sends ripples throughout the entire game. Make strength more important in carrying capacity and then you can't lug around all the guns you may need due the extreme weapon degradation. Then you have to "fix" that. Then you have to re-evaluate Repair's usefulness.

The SPECIAL stats aren't in a vacuum. Making these "tweaks" would be more like overhauling the whole system, because they are intertwined with more of the game systems. It would require a lot of testing and balancing to make sure they didn't make things even worse and build upon current issues. And we all know how great Obsidian has been in those departments.

I'd love to see Obsidian pull this off, but I don't see it in the cards. They're building off of a very shaky foundation in using the Fallout 3 engine. If they announced they were using Onyx, or even a heavily modified NWN2 (and I mean heavily) engine I could get behind it, because they wouldn't be carrying such a burden before even breaking ground.

It's like training a boxer with a glass jaw and a non-athletic body; sure, if you work hard with him, you guys could compensate for the flaws inherent in his body, but he'll never be as good as someone without those flaws coming in who gets the same training.

 

[Mister Arkham]

Imagine Codex with no skyway.

It isn't nice to taunt us with futile hopes for a better tomorrow.

 

[Silellak]

6 months before release of a product is, for the most part, bug fixing, cutting features and optimizing. This means trivial things like "make the end of the trial quest more interesting" and "cut down the number of Orcs in one area of the game" gets put by the wayside for more exciting features like "make the game run smoother than 1 FPS" and "cut out a class/feat/feature that makes the game crash".

I see you've missed Josh Sawyer saying that he was working on finishing area designs which includes what is in there. Selective reading?

When a project drops in your lap with only 6 months until release, you don't worry about shit like "does this sidequest have enough satisfying endings", you worry about shit like "can you play through the game beginning to end without any horrifying, game-ending bugs".

Obviously Sawyer and the rest of Obsidian never bothered to do even that in 6 months because the game came out unplayable, and version 1.01 was even unpatchable which fucked up every gamer in a region where that version came out.

Like it or not, most of the bullshit you constantly bitch about and call "glaring flaws" are considered trivial in the grand scheme of software development.

Yes gamestopping bugs, lack of balance, dumb AI etc. - all are trivial things in the grand scheme of -game- development.

Normally, I wouldn't resort to telling someone "If you don't like it, do better." It's a cheap argument, and plenty of valid criticisms are unfairly dismissed that way. However, when you've reached the point of personally insulting a person, by name, when you clearly know absolutely nothing about the sort of work they do or how much effect they do or don't have on the development process, then you need to either educate yourself, or shut the fuck up while the big boys talk about shit you could never hope to understand.

OK, that does it - you are trying to teach me how a game development works so I have to ask - are you a game designer? Do you know how game designers work? What games have your studio released where you were a game designer.
Otherwise your points are no more valid than mine.

The game was not unplayable. But then, people have varying definitions of "unplayable". I was able to complete the game on a low graphic detail setting without downloading a patch, so I consider it "playable".

He never said anything about finishing area designs. Here are his exact words:

The programming team was incredibly burdened, so I had to "finish the map" and determine what we were going to keep/cut. Class features, feats, spells, and scripting requests took the largest amount of time.

Notice "finish the map", in quotes and everything? He's not talking about literally designing areas. He's talking about finishing the feature map - which as he clarifies, involves figuring out what features get to stay and what features get cut. See, this is why you need to shut the fuck up - because you lack the basic ability to parse a sentence related to software design and determine its meaning.

"Lack of balance" and "Dumb AI" are trivial features when compared with getting the game to even RUN. From the first part of the interview:

Despite having a large amount of design documentation, I didn't feel I had a clear picture of how we were going to get to a finished game.

When you jump on a project with 6 months left, and you aren't even sure how to FINISH it, then yes, things like "Lack of balance" and "Dumb AI" are, unfortunately, put by the wayside.

This does not, in any way, excuse Obsidian as a company for the flaws in NWN2. They had the time to develop a solid, polished game, and somewhere along the line - it sounds like fairly early on - they got off track. They tried to do too much and didn't focus on making sure basic things worked. It's a common mistake, but there's no excusing it. Obsidian, the company, fucked up. Singling out the guy who was told to take the clusterfuck and make it releasable in 6 months, however, is unfair, dishonest, and intellectually ridiculous.

Finally, no, I'm not a game programmer, just a software engineer. However, that means I have far more understanding of software development in general than you clearly do. Obviously, a game programmer is going to know far more than me about game-specific programming, and if one comes along and tells me I'm full of shit and explains why, I will admit I'm wrong and consider it a learning experience. Just like a Jazz musician will know more than about Jazz than someone in a rock band does, but that guy in a rock band will still know far more about what it's like to actually play music than some douche bag who can play Expert on Guitar Hero.

 

[Chefe]

Skyway sounds like the Republicans over here in the 'states that are blaming Obama for the financial crisis.

Anyways, only on the Codex does a thread about the original Fallout creators, who are working in another company, picking up the pseudo-sequel to Fallout 3 (developed by the Codex Anti-Christ Bethesda, who bought the IP from a dying Interplay and are now working to destroy what's left of them), despite Bethesda completely ignoring any of the original creators and Fallout fans during Fallout 3's development, turn into a thread about a bunch of orcs in a cave in Neverwinter Nights 2.

 

[Mister Arkham]

Skyway sounds like the Republicans over here in the 'states that are blaming Obama for the financial crisis.

Anyways, only on the Codex does a thread about the original Fallout creators, who are working in another company, picking up the pseudo-sequel to Fallout 3 (developed by the Codex Anti-Christ Bethesda, who bought the IP from a dying Interplay and are now working to destroy what's left of them), despite Bethesda completely ignoring any of the original creators and Fallout fans during Fallout 3's development, turn into a thread about a bunch of orcs in a cave in Neverwinter Nights 2.

I know, right? It'd be funny if it weren't so sad.

 

[MetalCraze]

The game was not unplayable. But then, people have varying definitions of "unplayable". I was able to complete the game on a low graphic detail setting without downloading a patch, so I consider it "playable".

I wasn't. In fact I had a famous "can't exit first area bug unless you will free an unknown amount of space on disk C" and a solution to free space didn't come in first day either. The game was also running like shit no matter the settings and crashing on me.

He's talking about finishing the feature map - which as he clarifies, involves figuring out what features get to stay and what features get cut. See, this is why you need to shut the fuck up - because you lack the basic ability to parse a sentence related to software design and determine its meaning.

Yes features. Incl. what is on the actual game areas too.
Why it is -you- who actually need to shut the fuck up I will say later but I can give you a hint - you don't know that shit either because software programming is a very different thing from game design. The above is also a reason why I will now skip some of your text diarrhea.

Singling out the guy who was told to take the clusterfuck and make it releasable in 6 months, however, is unfair, dishonest, and intellectually ridiculous.

Having a selective reading is ridiculous too? I was blaming Sawyer for game design mostly, it was you who decided to attach "making a game to run" to him (when it is mostly a job of QA and programming dpt) and also was crying about how Sawyer improved the game not actually knowing what he was doing.

Finally, no, I'm not a game programmer, just a software engineer.

And this is a reason why you need to shut the fuck up because your arguments carry no more weight than mine.
Lead designer does not program, he makes design decisions like what kind of plot is being changed, like this given gameplay element will work with the other game element, does he like how character looks or not. Lead designer is not the same as a programmer - he orders people around and says/writes what and how he wants it in the game or what he doesn't, of course while contributing some of that design stuff himself. Do a research on the topic - it isn't that hard.
So tell me how am I, just a mere gamer, know this basic stuff while you just go around crying "I'm a software programmer who never even came near a game development - listen to me! I know all about how game design works!". The best thing you can do in your current situation is to admit that your point is not more valid as mine - I may be wrong but you aren't "more right" either.
In fact I can even point you your mistakes - your point actually could've passed for being constructive if you wasn't such a retarded fanboy meaning:
a) you were crying about how Josh Sawyer would've saved the game if he worked on it from Day 1 while admitting that you don't give a shit and don't know about what he did previously no matter how bad it was
b) you were crying about how Josh Sawyer actually made NWN2 better in those 6 months while at the same time crying about how he didn't have the time to do anything.
and c) the aforementioned - "a guy who doesn't know anything about game design but programs in C++ tries to teach another guy who isn't a game designer either".

Hope this helps.

Anyways, only on the Codex does a thread about the original Fallout creators, who are working in another company.

Hmm I can't find Chris Taylor, Tim Cain, Leonard Boyarsky and Jason Anderson in Obsidian's workers list. Can you help?

 

[Fat Dragon]

And this is a reason why you need to shut the fuck up because your arguments carry no more weight than mine.

you don't know that shit either

So you admit to being a dumbfuck who doesn't know shit in this case, skyway?

 

[Chefe]

Skyway sounds like the Republicans over here in the 'states that are blaming Obama for the financial crisis.

Anyways, only on the Codex does a thread about the original Fallout creators, who are working in another company, picking up the pseudo-sequel to Fallout 3 (developed by the Codex Anti-Christ Bethesda, who bought the IP from a dying Interplay and are now working to destroy what's left of them), despite Bethesda completely ignoring any of the original creators and Fallout fans during Fallout 3's development, turn into a thread about a bunch of orcs in a cave in Neverwinter Nights 2.

I know, right? It'd be funny if it weren't so sad.

Both of them are missing the point entirely. I mean, the implications of this entire situation, unless it is a joke for 4/20 (stoners are too slow to have a practical joke ready by 4/1), are monumental. During the entire development of Fallout 3 Bethesda repeatedly rejected any attempts by anyone related to the former games to work with them. They treated all the fans of the former Fallout games like trash, and made a point of making the game as different as the first two, and Tactics, as possible.

Have they had a heel-face-turn? An epiphany? It's likely that they just trying to milk as much out of the series as possible without working on it themselves, as no doubt they are focused on the next Elder Scrolls, and so hand it off to the certified official coattail riders of the game industry.

It could very well be an attempt at a pull to the "hardcore" crowd, who bought Oblivion and Fallout 3 out of pure hope. Those people would most likely not provide any free press or sales after getting screwed twice. But, if New Vegas, with the shiny Bethesda logo on the box, manages to be full of choices and consequences and all those things us losers love, then we're back to 2004 all over again. Bethesda get's a literal restart on the benefit of a doubt wagon.

I understand that Silellak is trying to put skyway in his place, and defend a good developer, but he needs to realize that there's no point in arguing with idiots.

Hmm I can't find Chris Taylor, Tim Cain, Leonard Boyarsky and Jason Anderson in Obsidian's workers list. Can you help?

You're not pulling me into this.

 

[Vault Dweller]

VATS was well designed, but too easy.

Surely you jest. VATS is an abomination design-wise. You can't just harden it up. It's principally flawed.

How so?

Uh-huh. You've still got the damage reduced to 10 percent. So I assume that's "the other half". Then what? Take that away? Then you're left with a targeted shot that seems to do extra damage and has a better critical chance. But at the cost of making your character a sitting duck.

Yes, remove all the stupid penalties from enemies and bonuses from the player, throw in a proper sequence system, which means that sometimes the enemy starts first, and you have a decent system.

For example, try fighting a super mutant with a mingun. If you step out into the open and just take a few shots at it, you take a lot of damage. That's what VATS would be like if you took out the "easy mode", making it pretty much useless and shifting even more emphasis towards FPS twitch skills.

Why?

You see a mutant with a minigun, either wait for him to turn around so that you can attack first or step out if you're fast and have a fast weapon and shoot him in the arm. If you're good, he drops the minigun and charges at you. Etc. It's the opposite of twitch. Instead of shooting wildly while strafing, you can use tactics, no matter how basic, and make every shot counts.

How is this example different from Fallout 2 when you start running into the Enclave patrols and try to take out one or two guys before they open fire and most likely kill you?

I don't think it's that easy. Every tweak to SPECIAL sends ripples throughout the entire game. Make strength more important in carrying capacity and then you can't lug around all the guns you may need due the extreme weapon degradation. Then you have to "fix" that. Then you have to re-evaluate Repair's usefulness.

Not necessarily.

First, STR doesn't have to go the original Fallout levels, but just be more meaningful. Second, you don't have to lug around extra weapons. If anything less weapons would improve the atmosphere and force you to use anything you can find, which is much closer to the Fallout spirit than having a shitload of spares.

I'd love to see Obsidian pull this off, but I don't see it in the cards.

I disagree. Time will tell.

 

[Anthony Davis]

6 months before release of a product is, for the most part, bug fixing, cutting features and optimizing. This means trivial things like "make the end of the trial quest more interesting" and "cut down the number of Orcs in one area of the game" gets put by the wayside for more exciting features like "make the game run smoother than 1 FPS" and "cut out a class/feat/feature that makes the game crash".

I see you've missed Josh Sawyer saying that he was working on finishing area designs which includes what is in there. Selective reading?

When a project drops in your lap with only 6 months until release, you don't worry about shit like "does this sidequest have enough satisfying endings", you worry about shit like "can you play through the game beginning to end without any horrifying, game-ending bugs".

Obviously Sawyer and the rest of Obsidian never bothered to do even that in 6 months because the game came out unplayable, and version 1.01 was even unpatchable which fucked up every gamer in a region where that version came out.

Like it or not, most of the bullshit you constantly bitch about and call "glaring flaws" are considered trivial in the grand scheme of software development.

Yes gamestopping bugs, lack of balance, dumb AI etc. - all are trivial things in the grand scheme of -game- development.

Normally, I wouldn't resort to telling someone "If you don't like it, do better." It's a cheap argument, and plenty of valid criticisms are unfairly dismissed that way. However, when you've reached the point of personally insulting a person, by name, when you clearly know absolutely nothing about the sort of work they do or how much effect they do or don't have on the development process, then you need to either educate yourself, or shut the fuck up while the big boys talk about shit you could never hope to understand.

OK, that does it - you are trying to teach me how a game development works so I have to ask - are you a game designer? Do you know how game designers work? What games have your studio released where you were a game designer.
Otherwise your points are no more valid than mine.

The game was not unplayable. But then, people have varying definitions of "unplayable". I was able to complete the game on a low graphic detail setting without downloading a patch, so I consider it "playable".

He never said anything about finishing area designs. Here are his exact words:

The programming team was incredibly burdened, so I had to "finish the map" and determine what we were going to keep/cut. Class features, feats, spells, and scripting requests took the largest amount of time.

Notice "finish the map", in quotes and everything? He's not talking about literally designing areas. He's talking about finishing the feature map - which as he clarifies, involves figuring out what features get to stay and what features get cut. See, this is why you need to shut the fuck up - because you lack the basic ability to parse a sentence related to software design and determine its meaning.

"Lack of balance" and "Dumb AI" are trivial features when compared with getting the game to even RUN. From the first part of the interview:

Despite having a large amount of design documentation, I didn't feel I had a clear picture of how we were going to get to a finished game.

When you jump on a project with 6 months left, and you aren't even sure how to FINISH it, then yes, things like "Lack of balance" and "Dumb AI" are, unfortunately, put by the wayside.

This does not, in any way, excuse Obsidian as a company for the flaws in NWN2. They had the time to develop a solid, polished game, and somewhere along the line - it sounds like fairly early on - they got off track. They tried to do too much and didn't focus on making sure basic things worked. It's a common mistake, but there's no excusing it. Obsidian, the company, fucked up. Singling out the guy who was told to take the clusterfuck and make it releasable in 6 months, however, is unfair, dishonest, and intellectually ridiculous.

Finally, no, I'm not a game programmer, just a software engineer. However, that means I have far more understanding of software development in general than you clearly do. Obviously, a game programmer is going to know far more than me about game-specific programming, and if one comes along and tells me I'm full of shit and explains why, I will admit I'm wrong and consider it a learning experience. Just like a Jazz musician will know more than about Jazz than someone in a rock band does, but that guy in a rock band will still know far more about what it's like to actually play music than some douche bag who can play Expert on Guitar Hero.

This is actually pretty astute and accurate. Obviously there is MORE to the story, but I am saving those juicy details for my biography.:twisted:

Seriously though, Josh Sawyer was the reason why we were able to turn the game around and finish* when leadership exchanged hands the last 6 moths of the project.

(I use an asterisk there because like NWN1 before it which is still getting updates, I don't know if NWN2 will ever be finished.)

I imagine most people would be too afraid to step-up and take on the large task of getting a project as complex as NWN2 back on track. Josh did not back away and within DAYS he got the project re-focused and back on track.

I understand the game still had issues, and as much as I personally think skyway could do with some ranks in diplomacy, he has every right to be upset about the game if it didn't meet his expectations, provided he actually purchased it and didn't pirate it. :evil:

Blaming Josh for every ill you experienced with NWN2 is understandable, a responsibility Leads in any industry have to bear. The truth is that Josh is a honest, hard-working, first class professional. He worked his tail off to try and salvage other people's mistakes, all the while never disparaging the leadership that was in place before him.

Josh also did his best to find time to squeeze in features that the community actually wanted, like the Deity System. That system that we expanded on for MotB.

If anything, the true injustice is that there is a lead designer in the industry like Josh who GETS gameplay and knows what game players want, but has the misfortune to have his projects canceled through no fault of his own.

 

[MetalCraze]

You're not pulling me into this.

Of course I don't. I wouldn't even try, you are too smart for me - I'm too idiotic to admire good developer Obsidian with its original Fallout creators

 

[Silellak]

I understand that Silellak is trying to put skyway in his place, and defend a good developer, but he needs to realize that there's no point in arguing with idiots.

I've said my piece, and there's little point in continuing this "discussion". Trying to parse any coherent meaning out of skyway's last post gave me a headache, and it's time for me to go home anyway.

 

[Chefe]

You're not pulling me into this.

Of course I don't. I wouldn't even try, you are too smart for me - I'm too idiotic to admire good developer Obsidian with its original Fallout creators

Alright, I'll pull the monster away from the group.

*ahem*

I meant to add in there "some", but you're just asking for a fight, so you completely ignore that obvious fact. Instead, you believe that I was saying all the original Fallout creators work at Obsidian.

*shoots arrow*

QUICK GUYS! ENTER THE CASTLE OF MEANINGFUL DISCUSSION! I'VE DISTRACTED IT!

 

[Anthony Davis]

Lead designer does not program, he makes design decisions like what kind of plot is being changed, like this given gameplay element will work with the other game element, does he like how character looks or not. Lead designer is not the same as a programmer - he orders people around and says/writes what and how he wants it in the game or what he doesn't, of course while contributing some of that design stuff himself. Do a research on the topic - it isn't that hard.

This is not completely accurate.

While a lead designer might not program, and there are many who DO, they are usually very technical.

Plot decisions are usually championed by the creative lead or the lead writer. They are also usually secondary to gameplay, not always though.

Gameplay elements working with other gameplay elements is usually the systems designer.

Deciding if a character looks 'correct' or not is usually the lead artist along with the individual designer that created the character.

Obviously a project director has oversight over all these issues plus many more not covered here.

 

[MetalCraze]

Josh did not back away and within DAYS he got the project re-focused and back on track.

I'm interested in what Josh was responsible for in NWN2 OC, what he did change, add, subtract etc - if he managed to get project back on track that quickly.

I understand the game still had issues, and as much as I personally think skyway could do with some ranks in diplomacy, he has every right to be upset about the game if it didn't meet his expectations, provided he actually purchased it and didn't pirate it. :evil:

I can be diplomatic, I just don't like fanbois with double-standards. Also just because I use torrents to pirate older games which aren't available anymore doesn't mean I didn't have to bear through the horror that is Akella's localization.
I don't blame Josh for everything, I actually blamed the rest of Obsidian for a buggy game up there too, I blame him for design choices - but it is hard to say if Josh is really -capable- of anything without the end result. And so far the end results where he was working on turned out to be from not-so-good to bad. That what matters for me as an end user in the end. Bethesda/Bioware developers are also hard working veterans of the industry - that doesn't mean they are delivering good end-products.

Also so what exactly Lead Designer does?

I meant to add in there "some", but you're just asking for a fight, so you completely ignore that obvious fact. Instead, you believe that I was saying all the original Fallout creators work at Obsidian.

Next time do so please. Besides your original Fallout creators showed what they can do without actual -original creators- (as Fallout was started with Tim Cain working on it alone for almost a year and then those other guys I named decided to join) - aka totally ruined Fallout's lore, plot was non-existent and they stuffed it with retarded humour.

 

[Silellak]

Actually, I lied. I do have one more fun thing to examine out before I go, as an example of the sort of sly "argument changes" skyway LOVES to try and slip into an debate, all the while pretending his point has never changed.

Let's first start with:

6 months before release of a product is, for the most part, bug fixing, cutting features and optimizing. This means trivial things like "make the end of the trial quest more interesting" and "cut down the number of Orcs in one area of the game" gets put by the wayside for more exciting features like "make the game run smoother than 1 FPS" and "cut out a class/feat/feature that makes the game crash".

I see you've missed Josh Sawyer saying that he was working on finishing area designs which includes what is in there. Selective reading?

Now notice here, skyway claims that Sawyer stated directly in the interview he was working on finishing area designs and I only missed it because of selective reading.

The "conversation" continues:

Notice "finish the map", in quotes and everything? He's not talking about literally designing areas. He's talking about finishing the feature map - which as he clarifies, involves figuring out what features get to stay and what features get cut.

Yes features. Incl. what is on the actual game areas too.

And here's the switch. Suddenly, we're not talking about Sawyer SPECIFICALLY mentioning "finishing area designs", but that "area designs are included with game features, obviously!".

Thus concludes our little side-quest. You may now return to your regularly scheduled thread.

 

[MetalCraze]

area designs which includes what is in there

Incl. what is on the actual game areas too.

I said exactly the same thing.
No. Try harder.

 

[Azrael the cat]

Skyway sounds like the Republicans over here in the 'states that are blaming Obama for the financial crisis.

Anyways, only on the Codex does a thread about the original Fallout creators, who are working in another company, picking up the pseudo-sequel to Fallout 3 (developed by the Codex Anti-Christ Bethesda, who bought the IP from a dying Interplay and are now working to destroy what's left of them), despite Bethesda completely ignoring any of the original creators and Fallout fans during Fallout 3's development, turn into a thread about a bunch of orcs in a cave in Neverwinter Nights 2.

I know, right? It'd be funny if it weren't so sad.

Both of them are missing the point entirely. I mean, the implications of this entire situation, unless it is a joke for 4/20 (stoners are too slow to have a practical joke ready by 4/1), are monumental. During the entire development of Fallout 3 Bethesda repeatedly rejected any attempts by anyone related to the former games to work with them. They treated all the fans of the former Fallout games like trash, and made a point of making the game as different as the first two, and Tactics, as possible.

Have they had a heel-face-turn? An epiphany? It's likely that they just trying to milk as much out of the series as possible without working on it themselves, as no doubt they are focused on the next Elder Scrolls, and so hand it off to the certified official coattail riders of the game industry.

It could very well be an attempt at a pull to the "hardcore" crowd, who bought Oblivion and Fallout 3 out of pure hope. Those people would most likely not provide any free press or sales after getting screwed twice. But, if New Vegas, with the shiny Bethesda logo on the box, manages to be full of choices and consequences and all those things us losers love, then we're back to 2004 all over again. Bethesda get's a literal restart on the benefit of a doubt wagon.

I understand that Silellak is trying to put skyway in his place, and defend a good developer, but he needs to realize that there's no point in arguing with idiots.

Hmm I can't find Chris Taylor, Tim Cain, Leonard Boyarsky and Jason Anderson in Obsidian's workers list. Can you help?

You're not pulling me into this.

Yes, I'm wondering if it's a matter of Bethesda jumping onto the 'expansions are for edgier stuff' wagon.

 

[Edward_R_Murrow]

Yes, remove all the stupid penalties from enemies and bonuses from the player, throw in a proper sequence system, which means that sometimes the enemy starts first, and you have a decent system.

Then nobody wants to use it unless they can't handle FPS at all.

Let's look at the specs of real time versus VATS when you strip out all of the VATS bonuses

Real Time
-Can evade
-Can use cover
-All shots land as placed by player skill
-Can move and shoot
-Can open the pause menu at any time to heal/buff

VATS
-Are a sitting duck
-Does not play well with cover
-Shots landing depends upon character skill
-Can't move while shooting.
-Can't crack open the menu and heal.

So nobody but the severely twitch impaired would use VATS. It would have no benefits, because it's nothing but a glorified super-shot. The bonuses are what VATS is all about, on the gamist level. Where does it give me tactical options I don't already have, but possibly better, courtesy of my twitch skills?

How is this example different from Fallout 2 when you start running into the Enclave patrols and try to take out one or two guys before they open fire and most likely kill you?

Huge difference. In Fallout 2, there is only one way to combat enemies. In Fallout 3, VATS and real time compete. The bonuses are the only thing that make VATS preferable in many scenarios. Otherwise real time would be dominant.

Unless you force VATS as the only mode of combat (as well as overhaul it greatly to do so, incorporating movement, item use, and such; might as well just make your own combat engine at that point rather than jerry-rigging VATS), or apply penalties to real time (not likely, check Alpha Protocol for Obsidian's feeling on Deus Ex/Bloodlines style to-hit rolls in real time) few would use a bonus-less VATS.

Fallout 3's "tactics" don't require VATS. In fact, most of them can't be done with it at all.

First, STR doesn't have to go the original Fallout levels, but just be more meaningful.

More meaningful would mean huge ripples all around still. And that's only one stat. Things get even more fun when dealing with all of them. Fact is, the butchery and TESification of SPECIAL is so great, it would be easier to start anew if their intention was a large departure from Fallout 3.

Which leads to a little question...why are you expecting something different than Fallout 3...if they're basing it on Fallout 3's engine? Do you actually expect an overhaul of the combat and character mechanics? I don't. Obsidian are businessmen, they want to create a stand-alone "expansion" to a market-tested product in the most expedient process possible. The economy is shit, do you think they're going to stray from a almost-guaranteed blockbuster formula to try to appeal to the always fickle "hardcore RPG" crowd? I don't think so. I expect it to be mechanically similar to Fallout 3 in the same way Fallout 2 was to Fallout 1. If we're lucky, it may bring some ace writing. Or we may just get NWN2 all over again, seeing as the mainstream market responded lukewarmly to both MotB and KOTOR2. Realistically speaking, the good news about similar gameplay will mean that Obsidian has more time to devote to quests, writing, and characters...which could make for a decent game. I mean, if Fallout 3 was composed of mainly content equivalent to the great quests (Replicated Man, Trouble on the Homefront, You Gotta Shoot Em In The Head) and not mostly shit filler, it would have been a good game. If Obsidian does that, and with better writing, we could have new Codex sacred cow. But if they continue in their tradition of overloading their games with awful filler combat, it may just end up a better written Fallout 3; that is to say, an eloquent piece of shit.

Second, you don't have to lug around extra weapons. If anything less weapons would improve the atmosphere and force you to use anything you can find, which is much closer to the Fallout spirit than having a shitload of spares.

Oh...I'd love this. It would fit the Fallout spirit so well. In fact, it would be "out-hardcoring" Fallout 1 and 2 by a long shot. But this is Obsidian we're talking about here. Don't get your hopes up. Just check every game they've made; they make Bioware's monty hauls look sparse. They could change and I'd like them to, but that's not my expectation.

I disagree. Time will tell.

Should be interesting discussion no matter what.

 

[Silellak]

area designs which includes what is in there

Incl. what is on the actual game areas too.

I said exactly the same thing.
No. Try harder.

I hate to split hairs here, but you claimed Sawyer specifically said he was finishing area designs - which is why you think he should have cut extra orcs from the cave area - when he in fact claimed no such thing. He was deciding, on a broader scale, what features had to be cut and which didn't. "Removing orcs from a specific cave area" does not qualify as a "feature cut", no matter how you want to try and twist it.

Here's a fun experiment. Re-read this and try and figure out how "removing Orcs from the cave" fits into what Sawyer's job was when he took over NWN2:

I usually focus on technical aspects, so I leaned heavily toward examing the technical implications of the features design was requesting. The programming team was incredibly burdened, so I had to "finish the map" and determine what we were going to keep/cut. Class features, feats, spells, and scripting requests took the largest amount of time.

Somehow, I really don't think this involves going into each individual area and determining if they have the "right" number of hostile NPCs.