Game News Fallout: New Vegas - By Obsidian, For Bethesda

[Foamhead]

rapelay 3

You know, a small part of me would like to see what Avellone would do with Rapelay 3. I know we could expect dialogue trees up the ass and multiple endings.

 

[MetalCraze]

rapelay 3

You know, a small part of me would like to see what Avellone would do with Rapelay 3. I know we could expect dialogue trees up the ass and multiple endings.

How about Rapelay: Dark Alliance with lots of shitty combat and non-existent story courtesy of untouchable maestro Avellone himself?

 

[Luzur]

Rapelay was an....unusual game.

 

[Wyrmlord]

rapelay 3

You know, a small part of me would like to see what Avellone would do with Rapelay 3. I know we could expect dialogue trees up the ass and multiple endings.

How about Rapelay: Dark Alliance with lots of shitty combat and non-existent story courtesy of untouchable maestro Avellone himself?

Avellone made Dark Alliance?

And you played it?

 

[Darth Roxor]

I don't think Obsidian is making a smart choice by having all these projects on their hands. They should focus on giving everything to one game , something that would definitely establish them financially and artistically. Aliens already got cancelled. All these deadlines will only make them work under crunch time and this can't be good.

Well, I suppose right now AP is close to being finished, and except that there's only New Vegas and the unannounced thingy afaik, so it's not *that* much. Plus, the unannounced project is, well, unannounced so we don't know what is the specified deadline, if there even is one in the first place.

 

[SuicideBunny]

Avellone made Dark Alliance?

Producer:
Darren L. Monahan
Line Producer:
Kevin Osburn
Lead Programming:
Ezra Dreisbach
Programming:
Ryan Geithman, Paul Haugerud, Raoul Said
Art Director:
Brian Sostrom
El Presidente:
Feargus Urquhart
Audio and Localization Producer:
Fred Hatch
Design:
Chris Avellone
Lead Character Artist:
John Van Deusen
Senior Artists:
Jason Wiggin
Artist:
Chris Donovan, Tami Foote, Joel Payne, Javier Rodriguez
Music:
Jeremy Soule, Will Loconto (Elfsong Remix)
Music By:
Will Loconto (Elfsong Remix)
QA Project Supervisor:
Harold Kim

 

[Andhaira]

I hope obsidy doesn't to baldurs gate 3. I DO hope they make a 4th edition game.

 

[Stereotypical Villain]

I hope obsidy doesn't to baldurs gate 3. I DO hope they make a 4th edition game.

Fourth edition sucks balls. Go down to the supermarket and buy a clue. (Provided that they have supermarkets in your country)

 

[racofer]

I believe they call it "U.N. Supplies Distribution Trucks".

 

[Stereotypical Villain]

I believe they call it "U.N. Supplies Distribution Trucks".

 

[SimpleComplexity]

 

[Edward_R_Murrow]

Fixed.

And no, I don't equate VATS with TB, but you are using the same arguments that "TB sucks, RT is awesome" crowd uses.

Errr....threw me for a loop with this one.

See, my argument was that the RT combat was more robust, and offered far more possibilities than the shallow puddle that was VATS, only in the context of Fallout 3. It's because all you can do in VATS is shoot people while standing still. Sure, you get "precise targeting", but without the bonuses and invincibility frames, is it worth it?

When Fallout 3 was designed as a real-time shooter, first and foremost, it submitted itself to certain "laws" of action gaming. One of which being the law that avoiding damage and striking evasively is infinitely preferable to damage trading. With the latter,you will eventually die even if your tactics/skills are impeccable, but with the former, you could potentially outlast the Energizer Bunny.

Based on that, it's easy to see why VATS, sans the player bonuses/enemy penalties, would be shit. Because all it would be is damage trading, and with real time in the mix (with more options), it becomes obsolete. The only way to fix this is to make VATS have more options, by overhauling it to include more things to spend action points on, like opening the item menu, maneuvering, taking cover, and maybe the old Fallout's leftover AP make you more likely to dodge attacks. Then VATS would be a real system, not just a super-shot, or some shitty damage trading. I don't think Obsidian will do that with their resources spread out on three projects, and such a short development cycle. So we'll still have shitty VATS, most likely.
In

No. VATS is (or should be) about RT with pause with tactical interface. It should give you an option to pause RT chaos and precision that no twitch skills can offer.

But twitch skills offer so much more in Fallout 3 because VATS doesn't do shit. It's nowhere close to real-time with pause, it's a super shot that is a bastardization of turn-based and real time with pause, showing how little talent Bethesda has for design. In a real-time with pause system, I can pause anytime, anywhere. In VATS, it's tied to a limited resource. In real-time with pause, I can order my character(s) to do any action they possibly can. In VATS, I can only tell my character to shoot. In RTWP I can break off any action at any time by pausing and issuing new orders. In VATS, you are committed to every shot you slot up, with no ability to break it up with the situation changing.

It's not a "system". It's shit made to try and placate the turn-based crowd.

You didn't answer my question.

I did. Just not the answer you were looking for. When you have two ways of combating enemies, a smart player uses the most effective. Thus, most players, save the twitch-impaired, will use real-time in Fallout 3.

The difference between the two scenarios is one is in a highly character-based game with no alternative than to rely on character skills and the other is in a game where they tried to cater to the twitch crowd and turn-based crowd at once and made an unbalanced piece of crap.

In Fallout 2, my character dictates the upper bounds of combat ability. In Fallout 3, my twitch skills and how to exploit the terrain/AI dictate the upper bounds of combat ability.

I disagree, but don't have time to write a scenario showing a doable middle ground between Fallout 1 and Fallout 3.

I'm sure there's a middle ground. In fact, may I submit Bloodlines,System Shock 2, or Deus Ex as possible examples? My point wasn't that a middle ground was unobtainable, but that it would be more than just a few tweaks. And remember, this is in the context of a AA studio, with three current projects,and a short development cycle. They wouldn't have taken the Fallout 3 engine unless they were intending to use most of it.

I do. Why? Good question. Blind faith into something good that could be done without significant time investment?

The whole point of my argument though is that the necessary changes would be time consuming to the point of not happening. They have other things to do. The designers and programmers will be busy on quests, NPCs, smaller tweaks to the character system (additional perks etc.), enemy design, encounter design, and plotting. Things that take time away from fixing Bethesda's mess of a engine. They can't do both, and I feel they will just let most of the Bethesda flaws slide because it sold well enough, and they want cash.

The only reason why most people aren't touching it is because these are minor changes. However, if Obsidian offers a game where the rest is fixed, fixing this minor stuff will be both easy and worthwhile.

Overhauling VATS, gutting the character system, and fixing the multitude of stupid flaws is much more than just "minor changes".

 

[Forest Dweller]

I'm curious, when people here say that 4th ed. DnD sucks, are they just referring to the system itself? Because as a setting it sounds more interesting to me than 3rd ed.

 

[Stereotypical Villain]

It's dumbed down to hell and back. Not that it matters, the second edition has always been superior.

 

[Vault Dweller]

See, my argument was that the RT combat was more robust, and offered far more possibilities than the shallow puddle that was VATS, only in the context of Fallout 3. It's because all you can do in VATS is shoot people while standing still.

What can you do in turn-based Fallout during your turn? I mean, we all know that Fallout's combat was very simplistic and can't be compared to juggernauts like XCOM and Jagged Alliance. So, while VATS is inferior to TB, it's not that far behind that it can't be tweaked. The only problem is that right now there is no reason to bother. Obsidian's game can change that.

Sure, you get "precise targeting", but without the bonuses and invincibility frames, is it worth it?

I think so, but it's subjective, so I won't argue this point with you.

When Fallout 3 was designed as a real-time shooter, first and foremost, it submitted itself to certain "laws" of action gaming. One of which being the law that avoiding damage and striking evasively is infinitely preferable to damage trading.

It's a choice. Some people preferred to play Arcanum in RT, some in TB. Same here. All I'm saying is that it's possible to tweak VATS to make things interesting and give people a good reason to use it.

Based on that, it's easy to see why VATS, sans the player bonuses/enemy penalties, would be shit. Because all it would be is damage trading, and with real time in the mix (with more options), it becomes obsolete. The only way to fix this is to make VATS have more options, by overhauling it to include more things to spend action points on, like opening the item menu, maneuvering, taking cover, and maybe the old Fallout's leftover AP make you more likely to dodge attacks.

Nah, no need. First, the cover system is already there. Enemies who are behind cover are harder to hit. So, choosing a good position will reduce their chance to hit you. That's one. Second, tweak AP costs a bit. Third, single shot and burst modes. And of course, throw out the slow motion shit and cheat mode penalties & bonuses. That's all it would take.

But twitch skills offer so much more in Fallout 3 because VATS doesn't do shit.

Solution: tweak VATS.

In RTWP I can break off any action at any time by pausing and issuing new orders. In VATS, you are committed to every shot you slot up, with no ability to break it up with the situation changing.

False. You can easily cancel everything.

It's not a "system". It's shit made to try and placate the turn-based crowd.

Was that a Jedi Mind Trick? Just checking.

I did. Just not the answer you were looking for. When you have two ways of combating enemies, a smart player uses the most effective.

So you never play anything but vanilla parties?

And remember, this is in the context of a AA studio, with three current projects,and a short development cycle. They wouldn't have taken the Fallout 3 engine unless they were intending to use most of it.

And I don't expect them to make radical changes. A few well-placed tweaks would be nice though.

The whole point of my argument though is that the necessary changes would be time consuming to the point of not happening.

Time consuming? Half of it already exists:
http://www.fallout3nexus.com/downloads/file.php?id=2183
"This mod uses the original calculation for carry weight ((STR * 25) + 25) and a formula for distributing action points that is more closely related to the original formula. (50 + (AGL*5)) (The original formula was (5 + (AGL/2))."

http://www.fallout3nexus.com/downloads/file.php?id=68
"Player will take same amount of damage in VATS as in real time."

http://www.fallout3nexus.com/downloads/file.php?id=161
"VATS Manual Chance Evaluation is a slight revision of the standard VATS accuracy formula which will put a much greater emphasis on your weapon skill and the base accuracy of your chosen weapon rather than simply the distance to your target."

http://www.fallout3nexus.com/downloads/file.php?id=1491
"Effects: The general purpose of this mod is to restore some of the turn-based combat feel from previous Fallout games. There are two versions: one that simply 'pauses' enemies while you attack in VATS mode, and another version that also affects Action Point usage. Only enable one of these mods.

VATS enemy 'pausing': Due to the way slow-motion during VATS is calculated, it's not possible to freeze every enemy while you attack. Specifically, the player executes actions at a speed that is a multiple of the speed everything else runs at -- if everything else were frozen (speed zero) the player would be frozen as well! That said, I set it so that the enemy you are attacking in VATS (should be) completely frozen in time. The
player should still move about 20 times faster than other enemies. Since enemies can no longer effectively attack you while you are attacking in VATS, the damage you receive while in VATS has been restored to 100% (from the vanilla 10%.) No more nuking behemoths point-blank in VATS.

Optional AP modification: While in combat, moving or attacking will consume AP. This is true for situations that would give both 'caution' and 'danger' messages, so sneaking is now more important. If your AP ever drops below 10% the max amount, you will be unable to move, attack, or access the Pipboy until your AP recharges to full; this can be considered the "enemy's turn". AP recharges faster during the enemy's turn. Upon exiting combat (i.e. you are hidden from enemies) all AP are restored; this makes the Grim Reaper's Sprint perk less useful for stealthers."

Overhauling VATS, gutting the character system, and fixing the multitude of stupid flaws is much more than just "minor changes".

See the links above.

 

[Captain Obvious]

I'm really hoping this will be a good FPRPG. But my motivation for doing so is slowly changing from wanting a good FPRPG to wanting to watch the hilarity it will cause on the Bethesda forums and especially here. I mean, what better way to troll the Codex than a good Fallout game with Bethesda's name on it?

 

[Claw]

I'm curious, when people here say that 4th ed. DnD sucks, are they just referring to the system itself? Because as a setting it sounds more interesting to me than 3rd ed.

That's just flavor text.

 

[BethesdaLove]

All the Yay-sayers and Good-news-faggots disgust me.

 

[TwinkieGorilla]

All the Yay-sayers and Good-news-faggots disgust me.

this post disgusts me.

*vomits on own penis, furiously*

 

[Jaesun]

That was a well written post VD. I agree.

 

[Shannow]

I'm curious, when people here say that 4th ed. DnD sucks, are they just referring to the system itself? Because as a setting it sounds more interesting to me than 3rd ed.

Hmm, we had a big thread about it but I can't find it anymore. Was even initiated from one of the regular dumbfucks, Andhaira or so...
Setting sounds more interesting to me, too, but they completely broke with lots of the fluff, lore, races, etc. Bloodwar never happened, no two kinds of demons (or at least not the way they were), tieflings are drakonians, elves are outsiders from Aborea, gnomes are out as playable race, god of righteusness kills god of magic because god of lies tells him to... and stuff like that.
The system itself has some things I'd call improvements but getting rid of alignment and spell memorization angered many "traditionalists".

But hey, Planescape is canon again.

 

[Forest Dweller]

Bloodwar never happened

Well if they rewrite history that's just stupid.

 

[raving nincompoop]

... AND the ruleset. That's something you can't choose to conspicuously ignore.
Let me point it out for you, in hi-res black and white: SPECIAL=TURN BASED.

Ok. You pointed. Now explain. What makes SPECIAL TB only? The 7 stats? Skills?

Action points?

Deterministic impact of perception (skill) on character effectiveness using firearms?

Sequence (which is actually a part of SPECIAL)?

Perks like: sniper, quick pockets, bonus rate of fire?

Different attack modes (especially with unarmed but also firearms)?

/* many edits */

 

[Vault Dweller]

... AND the ruleset. That's something you can't choose to conspicuously ignore.
Let me point it out for you, in hi-res black and white: SPECIAL=TURN BASED.

Ok. You pointed. Now explain. What makes SPECIAL TB only? The 7 stats? Skills?

Action points?

APs are time units and thus aren't a TB-only feature. In fact they worked very well in Fallout Tactics (a guy with a magnum and Fast Shot perk could shoot twice as fast as anyone with a rifle or SMG). It worked ok in FO3 too, but the numbers were fucked.

Deterministic impact of perception (skill) on character effectiveness using firearms?

And why it can't work in RT again? Perception based bonus to accuracy and range can be implemented in any system.

Sequence (which is actually a part of SPECIAL)?

Sequence is a part of any TB system, even the ones as simple as Geneforge. It was also in ToEE. That's the only aspect that mighty be lost. However, there is no reason why a basic "who shoots first" sequence can't be incorporated into VATS.

Perks like: sniper, quick pockets, bonus rate of fire?

Sniper and bonus rate of fire - not a problem. VATS is AP-based, so anything that involves AP can be more or less easily implemented in VATS.

Different attack modes (especially with unarmed but also firearms)?

Again, that's not TB only feature. I'm not sure if Bethesda's VATS can be tweaked to give you a choice of multiple attacks, but any interface can have a simple drop down menu, so theoretically it's possible.

 

[raving nincompoop]

<snip>

Or in other words, force TB mechanics (in the classic sense) down VATS throat, and hope it works, and maybe even enjoyable in the same time ("work" doesn't necessarily guarantee an enjoyable combat system), but nice try. I'll guess we will see what the guys and girls @obsidian manage to make of VATS, assuming they keep it in a year and a half (count me down for at least 6 months delay in F:Vegas).

Overall, I think you missed the point of SPECIAL having TB as core component, meaning you have TB first and then develop the combat mechanics on TOP of it. If, of course, you are not interesting in a coherent combat system, but mashing some cool ideas in a game ("hay, <this> and <that> in TB combat are fun so we are going to try and put it in our game" sounds familiar?) well, that just may work for you.

SPECIAL, on the other hand, doesn't seems (at least to me) to be some "cool ideas" squashed together, it looks like a lot of thought went in to it, and by the final result it doesn’t take a rocket surgeon to figure out that the decision to make it TB proper was made at a very early stage and then built up from there.

And yes, due to combat being an important part of the gameplay ("u cannot avoid" mama goes here) it obviously had a large effect on SPECIAL, read that as: TB first, SPECIAL later; TB as a fundamental game design decision, SPECIAL as a result, NOT the other way around!