Game News Feargie talks about WotC morality guidelines in NWN2

[Seven]

'When has evil ever triumphed in a Tarantino movie?'

Actually I dont think one could describe any of Tarantino's main protagonists, that do in fact have triumphant moments, as 'good' people.

I'm inclined to agree; its usually bad killing killing less bad/worse people with winner not asking for redemption.

 

[RGE]

Thinking about Reservoir Dogs, Pulp Fiction, Jackie Brown and the two Kill Bill movies, I can't come up with a single one where evil is triumphant over the lesser evil, and within the context of a given movie I consider the lesser evil to be the (edgy) good guys. From Dusk Till Dawn would be different, but Tarantino didn't make that movie.

 

[Monte Carlo]

Vol, I can't help myself:


YOU LOSE.

Annoying, ain't it?

 

[Avin]

characters in tarantino movies tend to be in the gray line: they are not EVIL and they are not GOOD, they are human. as we are.

good and evil are concepts you can find in the mouth of some religion fanatics (as gw bush) and d&d aligments.... :p

it looks that characters ambiguos as john travolta and samuel l jackson hitmen in pulpu fiction would never happen in a d&d game with those lovely gudelines.

 

[Monte Carlo]

But the stuff about those guidelines making Disney looking like Tarantino? Was that the best you could do? When has evil ever triumphed in a Tarantino movie? If evil is lucky, evil gets to live, but I don't remember ever seeing it triumph. Disney doesn't need much to look like Tarantino in that regard, and thus your example implies that those guidelines aren't that much either. But perhaps you were referring to the violence which would set Tarantino apart from Disney, despite not 'giving a toss about' "the ability to garotte infants or anything else"?

Er, before you go and start getting all deep on me here, let me try and explain something rather less high-falutin' but quite important.

If a game has multiple options then it becomes more replayable. CRPGs are eminently replayable, and that replayability forms the kernel of future success via expansion packs, sequels etc. Look at Fallout. Even if ain't my favourite game evar it's still tremendous value for money because you can play it umpteen different ways. In BG2 there's an evil route. It's still pretty linear, but you can hook up with some vampires and undertake all sorts of shady tasks to achieve your objective. So, if I fancy a game I can create an evil character and play that way.

In a fantasy game, where Good versus Evil is a pretty standard plot trope, this can make a crucial difference between a really re-playable game and a not re-playable one. Unless, of course, WotC start creating "A dozen routes to Goodness", which I suspect they might.

Cheers
MC

 

[Volourn]

No, MC, you lose as you are still crying and whining while youa void the issue. You have yet to explained the multiple 'evil' endings in TOEE, and you won't because you can't.

 

[Avin]

i see no winners while morality guidelines dictates the day.

 

[Saint_Proverbius]

In a fantasy game, where Good versus Evil is a pretty standard plot trope, this can make a crucial difference between a really re-playable game and a not re-playable one. Unless, of course, WotC start creating "A dozen routes to Goodness", which I suspect they might.

The best way to do this is ditch the party based D&D games and have multiple paths designed for the basic four character types - warrior, wizard, thief, and priest.

Then again, after the success of KotOR's LIGHT v. DARK crap, you'd think they'd see the potential of additional sales hyping up such a feature in addition to multiple path types.

i see no winners while morality guidelines dictates the day.

Imagine the new death screens that could follow this new guideline system:

• You have died. Luckily for the world, someone else comes along and saves the world. GOOD WINS AGAIN!

Ummm.. What?

 

[Monte Carlo]

Vol, where in the name of fuck am I "crying" or "whining."

You're the one who posts the online equivalent of a kid sticking it's fingers in it's ears and shouting "NA-NA-NA-NA-NAHHHH!!!!"

Wanker. I'll say it one last time, as have others, that ONE: Troika was creating ToEE during the re-alignment of content guidelines (making the situation similar to that of HotU) and TWO: Multiple evil endings appear to have been a consequence of Atari favouring their own anonited devs over IPLAY for broader business reasons.

Does that close the matter? I suspect not. :: sigh ::

@ S_P

I agree four paths through a game using the basic character archetypes is a way around this, but do I have to be a good thief/ warrior/ arcanist/ healer or whatever? Can I be a bit of a good thief who occasionally uses healing? Or a warrior who is evil today, neutral tomorrow and likes to use a bit of stealth? And so on.

Let's see if, say, NWN2 has a gloriously evil end sequence where I can be the Assassin-Master of (insert iconic FR location here), running my EVAL EMPYRE of crime and murder, doing a Tony Montana with a massive pile of Black Lotus and "My Little Friend" +5? I doubt it.

Cheers
MC

 

[Volourn]

"Troika was creating ToEE during the re-alignment of content guidelines (making the situation similar to that of HotU)'

Your making more exuses. Troika, as we know,w ere forced toc haneg things even late into the dev cycle yet somehow "evil endings" snuck under the radar? R00fles! Bottom line is you are making a mountian out of the mole hill.

But, hey, keep whining, it won't change the facts that the last two PC D&D RPGs released - HOTU & TOEE - both had quite a bit of "evil" options including endings.

That's it. Cased close. Game over. TOEE's evil endings stomp all over your crying.

So, when's your next cumback and when do you wipe it off your lips?


R00fles!

 

[DamnElfGirl]

Dude, so whoever looked over TOEE was more lenient on the triumphing good bit than other possible "morality police." That doesn't change the fact that the WOTC morality guidelines leave the door open to product-mangling and discourage designers from producing mature, morally relative storylines.

In all honesty, I can understand why companies want to tone down the content in some products. Dark Alliance, for example, had the type of hack 'n' slash story-free gameplay much enjoyed by minors. Yet the sheer boobiness and bizarre gyrations of its female models were so overexaggerated it was laughable. If I were in charge of such a game, I'd tell the artists to tone it down so the game reaches its target audience without pissing off overprotective parents.

The problem with overarching morality guidelines is that they affect all products, regardless of target audience. I'm tired of responsible companies being scared off of producing mature titles. That leaves only irresponsible companies like GoD (barf) to produce titles with "mature" content. The end result is that I don't get to play games with truly interesting, adult-oriented content, and the censorship-happy fundie-parents still have plenty of targets in the computer game industry. Oh, goody, nobody wins!

 

[Volourn]

"Dude, so whoever looked over TOEE was more lenient on the triumphing good bit than other possible "morality police." That doesn't change the fact that the WOTC morality guidelines leave the door open to product-mangling"

Yes, but none of this completely stops 'evil endings" to be included in games. This is basically the pint that MC makes a big deal out of, and he simply is wrong.

 

[Briosafreak]

In ToEE the new Wizards prescriptions erased the children and the brothel, making for many irritating moments like those felt by the British Fallout consumers, and stoped a few NPCs of making it to the game, so Monte Carlo is indeed right, those pesky prescriptions , either used as pressure against the comercial interests of others or just as a way to apease the fanatics that have been gaining power in american politics , are neverthless a nuisance.

 

[Gromnir]

"In ToEE the new Wizards prescriptions erased the children,"

again, this ain't true.... and is particularly funny to see some eurotrash nit blaming this on american politics in light of the actual cause.

somebody else wanna explain what many of us has been aware of for some number of years now? we get tired of repeating things multiple times in same thread, just so that the fans o' tim can again forget or ignore when convenient.

HA! Good Fun!

 

[suibhne]

again, this ain't true.... and is particularly funny to see some eurotrash nit blaming this on american politics in light of the actual cause.

somebody else wanna explain what many of us has been aware of for some number of years now? we get tired of repeating things multiple times in same thread, just so that the fans o' tim can again forget or ignore when convenient.

Wow, Gromnir. Do enlighten us with the truth of what happened to the children and the brothel, since it apparently had nothing to do with management decisions impelled by the D&D decency brigade.

No, on second thought, don't. Shut up.

 

[Spazmo]

Grom would have us believe that kids were yanked because of restrictions on games in European markets, just like FO2. It's plausible, yes, but... proof?

 

[TFVanguard]

Grom would have us believe that kids were yanked because of restrictions on games in European markets, just like FO2. It's plausible, yes, but... proof?

*sigh* It's a combination of things, really. WOTC wasn't really the culprit, but both Hasbro and Atari have 'adjusted content' for ratings on their games , including the kabosh on story threads, etc.

Also, yes, Europe is much harder to deal with with 'censors' than in the US or Canada. Fallout was a good cited example.

 

[Gromnir]

for chrissakes spaz... you got access to google. do a search for censorship of pc games in germany... add in "violence" and "children" in there... no doubt something comes up.

multiple developers has noted the euro restrictions on distributing games with child killing in 'em... and as you note, even fo2 fell afoul of such problems. is NOT a wotc thing.

HA! Good Fun!

p.s. maybe suhey notice that we singled out the child killing thing... am not talking 'bout the brothel removal, which were indeed taken out 'cause of wotc... not that the original toee module had no brothel, and keeping in mind that you can hack the brothel back in and see just how lame it were if you want.

 

[Spazmo]

Yeah, but if YOU recall, the North American (and Polish!) versions of Fallout 2 had all the kids and good 'ol fashioned red blood. Essentially, I'd say that rather than Wizards guidelines or Eurocommie puritanism, it's really an issue of Atari being run by boneheads.

 

[Gromnir]

.that is bs spaz, and you know it. the blanket policy enacted by a publisher is done 'cause of euro politics, not american. let us keep our eye on the ball. develop different games for each country based on each one's level o' censorship? THAT would be boneheaded

troika knew or should have known ‘bout euro restrictions. Many other developers has noted that they had to take child killing out ‘cause of European restrictions. Troika put child killing in toee.

am not seeing how this is an atari/wotc issue… unless you is some kinda mindless troika fan.

HA! Good Fun!

 

[Whipporowill]

Euro restrictions? Only country I ever heard of having those are the germans - and there was a localized german version of ToEE, so that doesn't make much sense actually.

 

[dunduks]

Euro restrictions? Only country I ever heard of having those are the germans - and there was a localized german version of ToEE, so that doesn't make much sense actually.

That and sometimes UK, but those are the only ones I've heard that censor games.

 

[Briosafreak]

Euro restrictions? Only country I ever heard of having those are the germans - and there was a localized german version of ToEE, so that doesn't make much sense actually.

Yes, Gromnir ignorance is astounding as usual.

 

[Monte Carlo]

Europe indeed has uniform localization laws for software releases, but the ratings system is still dealt with on a national (i.e. local) level. So "Europe" in this context is far from homogenous. For example, in Germany you can't show swastikas. Buy a model WW2 stuka and there's a cross on the tail, not a swastika.

That's a national law, an understandable part of the German constitution. In the UK or France it isn't illegal.

In Italy, France and Germany advertising guidelines are more liberal...female nudity isn't at all unusual. In the UK it is disallowed for mainstream advertising.

And so on.

Another example: In European TV drama there is more tolerant attitude to sex and nudity, unlike in the US (q.v. Janet Jackson's nipple). Programmes on HBO like Sex and The City that were seen as very daring in their use of profanity and nudity in the US hardly raised an eyebrow here except for the warm critical reception.

As for Volourn's bullshit, I never said (I know this won't make any difference) that there would never be any form of evil endings in a D&D CRPG but that those that were "allowed" would be neutered or caveated. Now will he please shut the fuck up? No.

Gromnir is being deliberately obtuse. He's a creative guy and he knows full well that he@s being disingenuous about these strictures not affecting future CRPG development.

Cheers
MC

 

[Elwro]

Germany is an exception. I'm not sure how it is now, but in the past games could have any amount of sex but preferably no violence if they were to be released in that country. Mortal Kombat for example was banned, iirc. The fact that UK had to have their own childless version of Fallout doesn't mean that the publishers have to alter their games because of Bad Europe. In Poland we've had children in FO and the brothel came with the official release of ToEE. Of course, in Poland most people steal the games they want to play, so maybe no one abroad cares how the games are released.