Feature Suggestions & Requests - Handled

[Heinous Hat]

Scrolls: In Co8 (Not T+), these divine-created scrolls did not show up on the radial menu. At all. Despite having a high Spellcraft for the Wizard.

Hmm... could be bugged in some specific cases then. It definitely works as a general rule.

Post the spells that won't copy, if you can remember or find any.

Whoops, scratch that.

Sorry Endarire, you're right... in co8 8.1.0 (without temple+) scrolls created by a divine caster don't show up in the copy menu when you give them to a wizard. It's also the case in vanilla (no co8), so it must be a rules interpretation or limitation by Troika.

In RAW, copying the arcane version of a divine spell into the spellbook is allowed as a collaborative act between characters. The requirements, such as cost, would be different though. Modeling that in ToEE would require special treatment (you'd have to apply some toll at the time the spell is copied). Just allowing it outright is probably a little too friendly.

@Sitra

Is that a Temple+ feature, oversight, or both?

 

[Sitra Achara]

I don't recall adding it on purpose, so both I guess

The underlying vanilla code seems permissive of this, so I'm not sure why it wasn't working before. Or was it really? Can you give an example?

Also, according to the SRD there shouldn't be any restrictions - where did you get that from? Or are you referring to directly scribing the spell in the Wizard's Spellbook without creating a scroll first? That's different I guess...

 

[Heinous Hat]

I have a few separate ToEE installations... one for temple+, another with just co8 and another that's plain vanilla. With the latter two, you can't copy a common spell to the wizard spell list that's been sourced from a cleric/druid. It simply doesn't show up in the radial.

Here's a shot from vanilla. I've just handed the wizard a scroll of Cause Fear, scribed by the party's cleric. I've also purchased a couple from Burne (Chill Touch and Color Spray). None of these are in the wizard's spellbook yet. As you can see, the purchased scrolls show up in the radial copy menu, but not Cause Fear.

Now, if I replace that copy of Cause Fear with one from Burne, it will appear in the menu. I also tried Dispel Magic and a few other spells common to both wizard and cleric spell lists... same result. I've yet to try a scroll sourced from another wizard (instead of a vendor), but I'd expect that to work. Otherwise, this would be a bigger limitation than magic type.

I really didn't remember this being the case, but that's how it goes in both vanilla and co8 as of v8.1.0. Temple+ is unrestricted.

I'll have to dig up the bit where it specifically mentions that learning an arcane spell from a divine source is a special circumstance. I don't think it's in the SRD, nor is such a case explicitly excluded. Probably in the 3.5ed DMG or a later book where there's clarification on it. I think the bigger question is whether allowing it freely makes spell availability too common for this particular game.

 

[Heinous Hat]

Interesting find on poking at this further...

Temple+ will disallow this when attempting to use a multiclass character to both scribe and copy spells (e.g. wizard/cleric). If you scribe a scroll from the cleric spell list, you can't subsequently copy it to the same character's spellbook. But you can hand it off to another wizard who is free to do so.



Also did some DMG reading... the part I was remembering about spellcasters collaborating only pertains to crafting magic items (when one lacks all of the prerequisites). A wizard can learn a spell from another wizard, copy it from a stray spellbook, loose scroll or otherwise research it himself. But these are all arcane sources. So strike that comment several posts back (that I can't edit)

Rules-wise, as far as allowing an arcane caster to directly learn a spell from a divine scroll... isn't there an implicit restriction there since he can't use the scroll naturally in the first place? He can identify it via Read Magic, but he can't activate it unless he passes a Use Magic Device check. Since copying the spell to the book requires activation and there's already a Spellcraft check involved... how do you resolve that? A double check? Sounds like a far stretch of RAW to me since you'd be essentially deriving one type of magic from the other via some rule loophole... or invention, depending how you look at it.

 

[Sitra Achara]

Ok, apparently the "learning" behavior is the same as vanilla, it's the Scribing that's changed... apparently I forgot to apply the scriber's class, except for cases when the scriber knows the spell by more than one way (e.g. multiclassing, as you found out). This causes the spell class to be the same as the proto by default, which is usually class_sorcerer for Arcane spells. I vaguely remember having a good reason for it to be so, but it was a long time ago when I altered crafting (back when I did the Wand Caster Level mod).

As for what the rules say, I had assumed it was ok, but it seemed to provoke quite a discussion on the Paizo forums:
http://paizo.com/threads/rzs2mfpr?Can-a-wizard-learn-a-spell-from-a-divine-scroll
I couldn't be arsed to read all of that, but it seems subject to DM interpretation, and I guess in this case I'll stick to Troika's.

Also, speaking of things that happened a long time ago, once you have a year under your belt in this place you should be able to edit your posts.

 

[Heinous Hat]

As for what the rules say, I had assumed it was ok, but it seemed to provoke quite a discussion on the Paizo forums:
http://paizo.com/threads/rzs2mfpr?Can-a-wizard-learn-a-spell-from-a-divine-scroll
I couldn't be arsed to read all of that, but it seems subject to DM interpretation, and I guess in this case I'll stick to Troika's.

I came across a number of those discussions too, looking for clarification. My takeaway was that the 3rd Ed rule itself isn't specific because it's well illustrated elsewhere that arcane and divine magic are meant to be exclusive concepts. But it's one of those spots where theme intersects with mechanics, depending on the campaign.

ToEE has really good replayability despite most elements being fixed. The vendor semi-randomness for spells is one of the few areas that makes a wizard's life slightly more difficult. Being able to easily pad his spellbook lessens that, so I'd agree with keeping the restriction.

If that's the way you go with it, Endarire's suggestion to put the magic type in the scroll description is probably a good one. The prototypes don't have a convenient property for that though, I see.

 

[Sitra Achara]

If that's the way you go with it, Endarire's suggestion to put the magic type in the scroll description is probably a good one. The prototypes don't have a convenient property for that though, I see.

It's actually encoded in the spell data - the class_x specification. If you create an item yourself, it will override it with your own class (I've fixed this in 773). I'll append a description for scrolls based on that.

 

[Endarire]

Thankee! Alleluiah!

 

[Sitra Achara]

Done. Also added "Remaining Charges" display for Wands (inspired by Rudy's now-unnecessary Charge-O-Meter mod).

 

[Sitra Achara]

So I've been going over old requests (and also separated them out from the already handled ones for convenience).

I'm going to tackle the Trip related feats / combat options, and I have a few questions:

1. Is Knock-Down still a thing? I saw somewhere that it got delisted and is now only available to deities.

2. Just to confirm, making trip Attacks of Opportunity is RAW?
2.a. Assuming so - if you trip someone on an AoO, and have the Improved Trip feat, do you also get a free attack, or does that not apply because you can only make multiple free actions on your turn?

3. Using Full Attack, is it legal to make all the attacks Trip attacks?

 

[Heinous Hat]

1. Is Knock-Down still a thing? I saw somewhere that it got delisted and is now only available to deities.

In the (official) 3.5 SRD, it appears only in Divine Abilities and Feats, not as a standard feat... that changed from 3.0 (Sword and Fist). You can still knock someone prone as part of Overrun though.



Still looking at the rest. A trip attack as an AoO is definitely ok, but opens up some exceptional cases.

 

[Heinous Hat]

OK, I looked at Rules of the Game Archive articles to clarify a few things...

2. Just to confirm, making trip Attacks of Opportunity is RAW?

Yup. However, an opponent who is rising from a prone position cannot be tripped during the resulting AoO... since the AoO resolves prior to him standing. Also, during additional AoOs (from the Combat Reflexes feat), successive trip attempts against different opponents would all be made at the highest BAB.

2.a. Assuming so - if you trip someone on an AoO, and have the Improved Trip feat, do you also get a free attack, or does that not apply because you can only make multiple free actions on your turn?

Wouldn't apply... free actions can only be taken during your own turn.

3. Using Full Attack, is it legal to make all the attacks Trip attacks?

Yes, you should be able to trip multiple opponents. The additional touch attacks (like any other) would be made with a successively lower BAB.

 

[Sitra Achara]

Just added Monk feats Empty Body and Perfect Self. Most of the time was spent on that bloody Ethereal status! But I think it turned out nice. Didn't implemented going through walls though (might add it later because it's pretty cool). Until next weekend

 

[Sitra Achara]

- Fix Elmo (maybe other NPCs as well? I've not used most of them) being hyper-reactive about turning on the party from attacking allies. I think I should get the benefit of the doubt when casting Grease on a Summoned Monster level 1 surrounded by a dozen Bugbears.

Yeah, that one's a pretty stupid Co8 addition. Gonna get rid of that.

- Give Sorcerers the ability to swap out spells at level up. Whether you want to do it by the book or be a bit more lenient is up to you, but I'd recommend being able to swap 1 spell at each level up.

Isn't this already possible? IIRC when you levelup the spellbook slots become "manipulable".

Also, Trip Attacks of Opportunity now in!

Or rather will be as of 1.0.8.

As previously discussed, this option requires Improved Trip to prevent AoOs on AoOs.

Also made it that you can use Trip Attacks as part of Full Attack (using Trip after using Full Attack will turn the next attack into a Trip Attack). For such attacks you do get the extra attack benefit of Improved Trip, which is pretty awesome!

 

[Average Manatee]

Oh man, combat reflex giants with spears will be even more OP.

If you have Trip AoOs enabled and someone is standing up from being prone, will it skip the AoO entirely or just make a non-trip attack? Either could make sense, the latter for damage or the former to save AoO attempts and be a designated defensive tripper.

Isn't this already possible? IIRC when you levelup the spellbook slots become "manipulable".

Looks like it is. You have to drag one spell to replace another, can't remove one to make a blank space and put another in its place. Nearly 13 years later and I still haven't fully figured out ToEE's UI apparently.

 

[Average Manatee]

Hotkeys seem to not be working properly with some items. I'd like to be able to equip everyone with a Brooch of Shielding and quickly activate it on all of them, but only some of them actually carry out the command when issued by the hotkey. It looks like the problem is that the game is running some kind of invalid check on whether they can cast the spell, and anyone without either arcane magic or UMD skill ignores the command.
FIXED IN 1.0.8

Also wands/scrolls are entirely unusable through hotkeys as far as I can tell, and items that require targetting (e.g. Pipe of Pain) are similarly unusable through hotkeys.
FIXED IN V1.0.10

 

[Average Manatee]

Some weirdness with enlarged characters, power attack, and two handed weapons.

Normally two handed weapons, when enlarged, become large THWs, increasing their damage but having them remain two handed. In PnP you could instead choose to let go of the weapon (having it revert back to a normal two handed weapon) then pick it up again and use it in one hand as a large character. ToEE represents this by basically letting you use most two handed weapons either two handed or one handed in Large form.

Problems:
- Large weapon damage dice are off on a number of weapons to begin with. For example, 2d6 Greatsword goes to 2d8 rather than 3d6, while a 1d10 Glaive goes to 2d6 rather than a 2d8. If you want I'll go through all of the base weapon types and highlight the incorrect ones. There may also be weapons that scale damage incorrectly for tiny characters, I haven't checked. Personally I'd argue that unless donut threat rang for reach weapons can be implemented that reach weapons could use a slightly nerfed die for the OP 15' AoO radius they get on large characters, but that's up to you.
DONE

- THWs used as a normal weapon in one hand w/ shield (or another weapon with two weapon fighting) still have the Large weapon damage rolls. e.g. a Large character using a Greatsword + (non-buckler) shield can only be using it as a medium Greatsword, so it should maintain the base 2d6 damage rather than 2d8 or 3d6.
FIXED (v1.0.8)

- Bucklers are weird since equipping a buckler + THW could mean you are either two handing the weapon and taking a -1 AB from the buckler or one-handing the weapon (thereby getting worse base damage dice) but taking no AB from the buckler. Probably better to assume the former since if a player wanted to one hand a the weapon and use a shield they'd use a real shield and not a buckler, and I don't think its worth cluttering the UI with another option to toggle between the two modes.
FIXED (v1.0.9)

- THWs used as a large weapon in two hands does not get the double bonus from power attack that it should. e.g. sacrificing -10 AB only gives +10 damage rather than +20. Interestingly they DO correctly get the two handed bonus from strength (e.g. 22 strength gives +9 damage rather than +6). ToEE's damage formula must have some really weird coding to treat a weapon as two handed for strength but not for power attack.
FIXED (v1.0.8)

- Even weirder, bucklers with THWs (enlarged or not). A buckler with a THW on a 22 strength character gets +6 damage from strength rather than +9 from a normal THW, but sacrificing -10 AB will give +20 damage. WHAAAAAAT? So here ToEE is having the exact opposite problem. The intention of how the buckler should be used is weird. Reading the ToEE rules carefully it looks to me like a buckler + THW should still be treated as a THW for both strength and power attack reasons. However this is arguably pretty overpowered, a THW user getting almost all of the perks of a sword-and-shield user and only taking -1 AB from the buckler and -1 AC compared to a normal shield. Either way it should be made consistent rather than half one way and half the other.
FIXED (v1.0.9)

Mechanics-wise it looks like if the off-hand in the inventory is open (no 'ghost shield' or 'ghost weapon' in its spot), the character is counted as two-handing a weapon for the purpose of +1.5x strength, but for the purpose of +2x power attack the game instead is checking whether the shield slot has anything at all (buckler or non-buckler).
FIXED (v1.0.8)

 

[Sitra Achara]

- Large weapon damage dice are off on a number of weapons to begin with. For example, 2d6 Greatsword goes to 2d8 rather than 3d6, while a 1d10 Glaive goes to 2d6 rather than a 2d8. If you want I'll go through all of the base weapon types and highlight the incorrect ones. There may also be weapons that scale damage incorrectly for tiny characters, I haven't checked. Personally I'd argue that unless donut threat rang for reach weapons can be implemented that reach weapons could use a slightly nerfed die for the OP 15' AoO radius they get on large characters, but that's up to you.

Ok, just to be clear, is there a 1-to-1 correspondence between the base (normal sized) damage dice and the enlarged damage dice?
From the SRD:

The current code is :

  if ( dispIo->weapon.objHndl )
  {
    switch ( GetPackedDiceType(dispIo->dicePacked) )
    {
      case 2u:                                  // d2
        diceBonus = GetPackedDiceBonus(dispIo->dicePacked);
        diceTypeNew = 3;
        goto LABEL_7;
      case 3u:                                  // d3
        diceBonus = GetPackedDiceBonus(dispIo->dicePacked);
        diceTypeNew = 4;
        diceNum = GetPackedDiceNumDice(dispIo->dicePacked);
        goto LABEL_8;
      case 4u:                                  // d4
        diceBonus = GetPackedDiceBonus(dispIo->dicePacked);
        diceTypeNew = 6;
        diceNum = GetPackedDiceNumDice(dispIo->dicePacked);
        goto LABEL_8;
      case 6u:                                  // d6
        diceBonus = GetPackedDiceBonus(dispIo->dicePacked);
        diceTypeNew = 8;
LABEL_7:
        diceNum = GetPackedDiceNumDice(dispIo->dicePacked);
LABEL_8:
        dispIo->dicePacked = encodeTriplet(diceNum, diceTypeNew, diceBonus);
        return 0;
      case 8u:                                  // d8
        v5 = GetPackedDiceBonus(dispIo->dicePacked);
        dispIo->dicePacked = encodeTriplet(2, 6, v5);
        return 0;
      case 0xAu:                                // d10
        v6 = GetPackedDiceBonus(dispIo->dicePacked);
        dispIo->dicePacked = encodeTriplet(2, 6, v6);
        return 0;
      case 0xCu:                                // d12
        v7 = GetPackedDiceBonus(dispIo->dicePacked);
        dicePackedNew = encodeTriplet(2, 8, v7);
        break;
      default:
        break;
    }
    dispIo->dicePacked = dicePackedNew;

So it looks like the wrong ones are 1d10 (should transform to 2d8) and 2d6 (should transform to 3d6 instead of 2d8).

Also, can you send me a save demonstrating the NPCs turning on you when you attack a summoned creature? It's unfortunately quite fiddly to trigger this...

edit:

Ok, implemented the above. There might be a few edge cases for critters enlarged by two size categories or with "tiny" weapon version, but I think it's good enough.

So yeah, Glaives are now even more uber, hehe. Ranseurs get a Disarm bonus though, so there's that.

 

[Average Manatee]

Yeah, this is why I didn't go through more weapons. Assuming there's a 1:1 damage translation it would be a big waste of time.

There's also 1d12 wrong, and also lots of problems if you go further off the size scale or into the bigger weapons.

Try this

if ( dispIo->weapon.objHndl )
{
   diceBonus = GetPackedDiceBonus(dispIo->dicePacked);
   diceNum = GetPackedDiceNumDice(dispIo->dicePacked);
   diceType = GetPackedDiceType(dispIo->dicePacked);
   switch ( diceType )
   {
   case 2u:     // d2
     diceNumNew = 1;
     diceTypeNew = 3;
     break;
   case 3u:     // d3
     diceNumNew = 1;
     diceTypeNew = 4;
     break;
   case 4u:     // d4
     diceNumNew = diceNum;
     diceTypeNew = 6;
     break;
   case 6u:     // d6
     switch ( diceNum )
     {
     case 1u:                 // 1d6
       diceNumNew = 1;
       diceTypeNew = 8;
       break;
     case 2u:                 // 2d6
       diceNumNew = 3;
       diceTypeNew = 6;
       break;
     case 3u:                 // 3d6
       diceNumNew = 4;
       diceTypeNew = 6;
       break;
     case 4u:                 // 4d6
       diceNumNew = 6;
       diceTypeNew = 6;
       break;
     case 6u:                 // 6d6
       diceNumNew = 8;
       diceTypeNew = 6;
       break;
     default:
       break;
     }
     break;
   case 8u:     // d8
     switch ( diceNum )
     {
     case 1u:                 // 1d8
       diceNumNew = 2;
       diceTypeNew = 6;
       break;
     case 2u:                 // 2d8
       diceNumNew = 3;
       diceTypeNew = 8;
       break;
     case 3u:                 // 3d8
       diceNumNew = 4;
       diceTypeNew = 8;
       break;
     case 4u:                 // 4d8
       diceNumNew = 6;
       diceTypeNew = 8;
       break;
     case 6u:                 // 6d8
       diceNumNew = 8;
       diceTypeNew = 8;
       break;
     case 8u:                 // 8d8
       diceNumNew = 12;
       diceTypeNew = 8;
       break;
     default:
       break;
     }
     break;
   case 0xAu:  // 1d10
     switch ( diceNum )
     {
     case 1u:                 // 1d10
       diceNumNew = 2;
       diceTypeNew = 8;
       break;    
     case 2u:                 // 2d10
       diceNumNew = 4;
       diceTypeNew = 8;
       break;
     }
     break;
   case 0xCu:  // 1d12
     diceNumNew = 3;
     diceTypeNew = 6;
     break;
   default:
     break;
   }
   dispIo->dicePacked = encodeTriplet(diceNumNew, diceTypeNew, diceBonus);
}

Now it should works all the way up to colossal (does ToEE even support these?). Also a lot cleaner IMO.

Also, can you send me a save demonstrating the NPCs turning on you when you attack a summoned creature? It's unfortunately quite fiddly to trigger this...

Here you go: https://mega.nz/#!M0Y1gC7B!59nj9hz7YCTRw3veSFqKTzuHGm-RLhgvuP7wfKSW8Zc

Just cast grease on anyone, Druid can summon if you want to cast on a summon


EDIT:

There might be a few edge cases for critters enlarged by two size categories or with "tiny" weapon version, but I think it's good enough.

AFAIK every magical enlargment in ToEE has the "doesn't stack' property so it should be fine. Actually I think there are some bugs where they stack in terms of graphically making the character bigger but don't affect any actual stats. Dunno how easy it would be to fix that but its a pretty edge case IMO.

How about the code for reduced size though? Unfortunately reduced size has problems since 2d6 can reduce to 1d10 or 2d4 depending on where you are in the chart.

So yeah, Glaives are now even more uber, hehe. Ranseurs get a Disarm bonus though, so there's that.

Hehe. Now consider THIS bug/derivation from PnP: ToEE only gives Large Reach weapon users a 15' range, when in fact by PnP they should have 20' reach. Imagine if you also buffed Glaive reach by 33%.

EDIT2:
Original code was bugged on 2d4 and 2d10, fixed.

 

[Sitra Achara]

Thanks.

There are colossal monsters in the game, but I don't think there's any way your own characters can go that high. Likewise I don't think there are any 2d10 weapons.

You're right that size increases shouldn't stack, though I think right now Righteous Might stacks with Enlarge Person (not 100% sure, should fix it anyway).

The translations get very fiddly with tiny weapons / characters, I think I'll leave that to whoever cares to perfect it
https://github.com/GrognardsFromHel...d51d8f65804443/TemplePlus/condition.cpp#L2462

 

[Average Manatee]

Level 20 monks have 2d10 hands (which is reachable at level 15 through the item that buffs monk hands by +5 levels). Also Huge Elementals from Summon Nature's Ally 6 have 2d10 according to the help (but I don't think you can enlarge these?).

Both clearly outside the normal level cap but I wouldn't be surprised if there was an enemy with a natural weapon 2d10 running around somewhere (dunno WHY you would want to cast enlarge on your enemies)

Yeah, I wouldn't worry about reduce size too much. Its messy and it comes down to small creatures doing crap damage either way. If someone complains that their tiny halfling is doing .5 less damage than let them find a good logic to fix it. Plus by legit PnP rules a creature of Tiny size actually has a reach of 0' and shouldn't be able to attack unless they are standing inside the enemy, so Tiny creatures can't really complain.

 

[Sitra Achara]

Level 20 monks have 2d10 hands (which is reachable at level 15 through the item that buffs monk hands by +5 levels). Also Huge Elementals from Summon Nature's Ally 6 have 2d10 according to the help (but I don't think you can enlarge these?).

Monk damage dice (and unarmed damage in general) are handled in another function which takes that into account (also the belt). Well, at least for Large monks. I'll expand that if I add more races.

 

[Sitra Achara]

- Freedom of movement appears to not work vs. Grease. Or at least the version granted by Lareth's ring isn't working, I don't have the spell.

Should it?

I looked it up and it seems to be another one of those controversial topics for rules lawyers to argue over...

http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?topic=7605.0

 

[Zed]

Have you added any gore and/or nudity??

 

[Sitra Achara]

Are you drunk?