X-COM Firaxis - XCOM: Enemy Unknown + Enemy Within Expansion

[ArchAngel]

Missions where I get in over my head and somehow survive are now getting to be standard and I don't like it. It just means I will soon get one where I am unlucky and lose too much of my troops.
I had two such yesterday:
1. Bomb defusal mission in August with my 6 man team. After 2 rounds I didn't move much from my starting position (which is parking lot next to a dinner, a small map) and I was fighting 6 mutons and 4 floaters. then 2 rounds after than another muton and 2 floaters show up from a flanking positions. All the while bomb timer goes down. Then muton hits and panics a guy that I was planning to run to a bomb energy thingy as turn timer ran down to 1 turn, but luckily another guy was in range of another one of those. In the end mission came down to my assault being able to kill a muton while standing in the open and then surviving shots from two floaters. If they killed him there I would have failed that mission. Mission ended with 21 dead aliens (a big group of thin men dropped after I defused the bomb).

2. I had a bunch of missions all one after another within few days, 3 teams of soldiers is not enough sometimes. I somehow lived through that and got some of my troops back from fatigue. Then a Terror mission hit me.
So far I didn't have that much problems with terror missions so I picked my almost standard team of Alloy ShiV (not standard but didn't have other troops ready), Rocket, Medic, Infantry, Scout, Engineer (double tap). Got the chrysalid council mission map for it with starting position being next to the ship.
Scout movement said that closest enemies were to the right so I moved my team just a little away to set up an overwatch trap. Scout was high level Major with Concealment so he was able to see a Cyberdisc with Floaters and Drones.
Round 2 they move in and activate but only Floaters and Drones move in, Cyberdisc stays behind overwatching. I decide to move my Engineer a bit more to the right to get full cover and overwatch on the Cyberdisc but when he moves I uncover 4 Chrysalids... fuck! I move my Infantry dude so I can shoot at Chrysalids but do nothing useful. I flashbang the Chrysalids with Medic and move my Alloy Shiv to tank if they manage to move close enough. Turn ends and I hope Cyberdisc does not join they fight yet. He does not (decides to stay far back and shoot at civilians), Chrysalids all move next to my troops but don't attack but from the left (inside the ship) muton and 2 floaters show up LOL... fuck x2!
Now I am so fucked, I decide to retreat. I move my Alloy Shiv into the retreat zone and bring my Medic, Rocket and Infantry there. Engineer and Scout use other cover to wait one turn so I can retreat with Alloy Shiv as well. Medic smokes as much as he can. I use Alloy Shiv to provide cover for Medic and Rocket vs Muton and 2 Floaters. Then I throw alien grenade with Rocket at 4 Chrysalids to weaken them so at least I can kill them before Cyberdisc shows up and I retreat but he blows them all up with one grenade (he has heat explosives perk). Turn ends, Cyberdisc does not show up and Muton and couple of Floaters don't manage to kill anyone. So now I can retreat but I decide to stay and fight instead. Cyberdisc and Stalker are out there killing civilians instead of my troops. Eventually I win the mission with zero casualty, but I lost a fair amount of civilians.
The mission came down to Cyberdisc not joining the fight on time. I would have retreated 100% if I had to fight the Cyberdisc, Muton and Floaters all the same time while being attacked from two sides and only having low cover and smokes to defend (especially since everyone was bunched up together and could be grenaded).

On the other hand I am finally switching everyone to Gauss weapons, my first MEC (Jaeger) is online and I got two rookie Psi soldiers now (a rocketeer and medic). And I am only 5 missions away from the squad size upgrade (Large one, I already took Small squad upgrade). Some of these missions should become much easier with 8 people in squad, only abductions might stay hard with only 5 man teams on small maps.

Things I learned: Small maps suck ass and are the biggest problem of Xcom 1 and especially a big problem of LW rebalanced as the chain activation makes them even harder. Rockets suck, grenades are better.

 

[mastroego]

Hmmm, interesting, you're doing some things differently than I am.
I thought I was a lot further ahead but I don't have any soldier to the Concealment layer of abilities yet. How much are you playing exactly? Dynamic War option, perhaps?
If that's the case that might be screwing your balance. No one balanced that option, it's provided "as is" for the player, who then has to go and balance the INIs himself.

Other than that, I don't know.
In part is to be expected. As I said, Rebalanced is supposed to be harder as it progresses, not the other way around, and this at least is good gameplay.
It's also true that, several months in, it's harder to judge the "balance", when you don't know if you really have played your cards well at the strategic layer.
Did you research the things that fit your style the most? Did you invest enough, early enough, in the right things? Did you sacrifice the necessary things to get Engineers and Scientists at the most relevant moments? Or did you pay TOO much for them?
Hard to say, really, but honestly you might just have hit a temporary jam.

I just lost a Scout myself.
He courageously went to capture a Muton, and he did too.
But his Low Profile was dealt with with a muton grenade, and then he was uncovered and doomed.
Entirely my mistake too. I was getting nervous about Mutons as I hadn't managed to capture one yet... as soon as I saw one at 1 HP I sent the Scout running.... I could just have waited and dealt with the other two first.
Rookie mistake.

Oh, and you're entirely right about small maps.
Yes, they're the most evident, remaining flaw. You just have to be aware of that... and stay ready to flee, when you see a "small operation area from the plane" before landing...

 

[Zero Credibility]

You guys make me want to install the game again and try LW rebalanced. I remember from a couple of years back how much fun I had with mecs in LW, mostly because how they don't play like normal soldiers at all. None of that moving from cover to cover crap, they are meant to move in, stand in the open and draw fire (well, within reason) away from the rest of the team. Made aggressive play much more viable, and special mec weapons were a joy to use. Seting a whole group of chrysalids on fire or punching a cyberdisk through a wall... just beautiful.

 

[mastroego]

I don't use Mecs but I can tell you that the regular cover dynamics change a lot in Rebalanced compared to standard LW.
A lot of things, even minor ones, contribute to that effect, but it does play faster and more dynamically in the end. It also means you'll be able to "prepare less".
For instance In The Zone works differently and often you just won't be able to trigger it: you will not be preparing for it and using it all the time.

Overall I love it. I'm using a lot of stuff I didn't before, too.

 

[ArchAngel]

Hmmm, interesting, you're doing some things differently than I am.
I thought I was a lot further ahead but I don't have any soldier to the Concealment layer of abilities yet. How much are you playing exactly? Dynamic War option, perhaps?
If that's the case that might be screwing your balance. No one balanced that option, it's provided "as is" for the player, who then has to go and balance the INIs himself.

Other than that, I don't know.
In part is to be expected. As I said, Rebalanced is supposed to be harder as it progresses, not the other way around, and this at least is good gameplay.
It's also true that, several months in, it's harder to judge the "balance", when you don't know if you really have played your cards well at the strategic layer.
Did you research the things that fit your style the most? Did you invest enough, early enough, in the right things? Did you sacrifice the necessary things to get Engineers and Scientists at the most relevant moments? Or did you pay TOO much for them?
Hard to say, really, but honestly you might just have hit a temporary jam.

I just lost a Scout myself.
He courageously went to capture a Muton, and he did too.
But his Low Profile was dealt with with a muton grenade, and then he was uncovered and doomed.
Entirely my mistake too. I was getting nervous about Mutons as I hadn't managed to capture one yet... as soon as I saw one at 1 HP I sent the Scout running.... I could just have waited and dealt with the other two first.
Rookie mistake.

Oh, and you're entirely right about small maps.
Yes, they're the most evident, remaining flaw. You just have to be aware of that... and stay ready to flee, when you see a "small operation area from the plane" before landing...

I am not using Dynamic War. Second Wave options I got is Commander Choice, Perfect Information and two that turn off Green Fog (as that feature of LWR irritated me in my previous failed runs) and that part of the game plays like normal LW instead.

I did my capturing stuff as soon as I was able to. I captured Sectoid and Outsider early. And then a bit later a Floater, Thin Men and a Muton. I don't know if I need to capture anyone else, I suppose I might need to capture an Ethereal.

 

[Zero Credibility]

Ok, so I installed the whole thing, LW rebalanced included. Seems to work despite using wine. Only annoyance is that I get "Flight fuel: 0" text next to every soldier I select. Like I need to be told my grunts are not capable of flying in the first mission. This a bug? Any way to turn that off?

 

[ArchAngel]

I don't have that message. You might have not installed some mod correctly.

 

[mastroego]

Apparently a new version came out 5 days ago.
The changelog does mention tinkering with fuel things.

Also some interesting adjustments, like a nerf to grenades and a small buff to rockets.
I probably could upgrade and continue the current campaign, but I'm not sure.

 

[Zero Credibility]

It's probably that then. Mods seem to be working otherwise, so I think I installed it ok.

 

[ArchAngel]

Apparently a new version came out 5 days ago.
The changelog does mention tinkering with fuel things.

Also some interesting adjustments, like a nerf to grenades and a small buff to rockets.
I probably could upgrade and continue the current campaign, but I'm not sure.

I don't like grenade nerfs (there are 3) since I already made a couple of grenade focused characters. And rocket buffs are OK but not worth it.

Also buffs I like:

• - Alloy Bipods can be equipped by gunners and rocketeers as well - Opens up small item options to those classes
• - Breaching Ammo mobility to 0 (from -1) - slight buff

Still not worth the massive nerfs to grenades.

 

[MadMaxHellfire]

Ok, so I installed the whole thing, LW rebalanced included. Seems to work despite using wine. Only annoyance is that I get "Flight fuel: 0" text next to every soldier I select. Like I need to be told my grunts are not capable of flying in the first mission. This a bug? Any way to turn that off?

jet fuel can't melt x-com's will.

 

[mastroego]

Apparently a new version came out 5 days ago.
The changelog does mention tinkering with fuel things.

Also some interesting adjustments, like a nerf to grenades and a small buff to rockets.
I probably could upgrade and continue the current campaign, but I'm not sure.

I don't like grenade nerfs (there are 3) since I already made a couple of grenade focused characters. And rocket buffs are OK but not worth it.

Also buffs I like:

• - Alloy Bipods can be equipped by gunners and rocketeers as well - Opens up small item options to those classes
• - Breaching Ammo mobility to 0 (from -1) - slight buff

Still not worth the massive nerfs to grenades.

Just keep playing with the current version.
If he nerfed them too much, the author'll probably partly revert the nerf.

It's been the process for this mod. But it did pay off, the first versions I tried were nowhere near this one.

 

[ArchAngel]

I am no longer enjoying the map wide activation shit. It just does not work for Abduction missions.
I just had a swarming one that had 7 mutons, 1 heavy muton, 3 Mechtoids and few sectoids. Within 3 rounds they were all on me and got me stuck to starting position. I killed 6 before they forced me to retreat. And I lost my best Gunner because he got damaged by a flanking mechtoid and was two squares short to reach retreat zone

I can only imagine how much bullshit this is on harder difficulties. I can manage all mission except Abduction. Those have became almost impossible as soon as enemy count is Heavy or Swarming. I think I need to mod this myself to add +1 or +2 soldiers for these missions, 5 man teams just don't work for those missions and map sizes. Either that or quit playing this unbalanced mess.

 

[mastroego]

I agree again that's the remaining problem but it's only map wide if the map is small.
I wouldn't give up the new system because of that.

Granted, abduction and terror missions can be tough. Very much so.
Consider though that you might also skip them (for instance you decide you can't risk it when it's "swarming"), if you can take the hit at the strategic level.

Another option is to just play Bronzeman, so you can restart the map (no savescum, full restart I mean).
It's your game, if you really don't want to lose the best soldiers, and you feel that in a couple of instances the game is being truly unfair....
Just a thought.

 

[ArchAngel]

Bronzeman is not a fix. You just start same map with same enemies and same bullshit odds and hope this time RNG is on your side.
Terror missions are not as nearly terrifying. Maps are always larger and you can have 8 man teams, not 5.

And even less tiny maps on swarming Abduction are terrible. Aliens still activate each other fast.
If maps were size of small or medium crashed UFO then that would be OK.
Xcom 2 with its larger maps didn't have this problem.

 

[ArchAngel]

Oh well, I settled on activating Bronzeman with console. I will use that only for bullshit swarming Abduction missions and if I run into nasty bugs.

 

[ArchAngel]

Heh, things were going well for a while and I got lazy and overconfident.
I did enemy Base Assault, finally managed to capture a Heavy Muton and a Sectoid Commander in that mission so my tech started moving from a dead spot.
Got 2 Firestorms built to tank for my other planes. Got my first max level soldier that is also a Field Commander officer. Got a few psionics ready (giving Psi training to all my Infantry and Medics) and got 4 soldiers for Mech suits (1 for each class so I can try them all).

And then 2 days before I got my best armors I do a crashed Medium UFO mission with 8 men team, I always take lower level guys or those that are one mission away from level to these missions for training. This one seemed just like any other such.
Except this time I got overconfident and stupid.

I sent my Concealment Scout ahead to scout for my sniper because aliens would not move towards where I parked my whole team and I got bored of waiting. Then when I found a group of Mutons they were outside Sniper's range :D
Then I double moved all my troops towards that area and into low cover.
And even with Concealed Scout aliens activated then proceeded to flank my Scout and as result remove his concealment and then bring him to critically wounded and dying on the floor (all my scout officers get a gene treatment to guarantee they get critically wounded instead of dead). These aliens also proceeded to activate all other packs on the maps (because they were all close to each other packed in one edge of the map).

I had two double shot Engineers that I put next to each other and medic to throw smoke at them every round. I was hoping to somehow move forward towards my downed Scout but more and more Mutons kept arriving from multiple sides so they were stuck there.
Then I tried to move my psionic Rocketeer into heavy cover closer to battlefield so I can rocked all the packed Mutons but overwatch shot one hit crit and killed that guy... round later one of the mutons threw a grenade at two Engineers (something that I feared would happen but I was powerless to stop as my flashbang medic was too far from them all) blowing the cover from one of them and he got critically wounded. More Mutons kept coming from the darkness (I think there were at least 10 mutons in that fight). I somehow managed to thin their numbers to 3 and moved my medic to save the downed engineer and last full health muton decided to grenade the medic killing the engineer in the process.. FUCK!

Then next round I wanted to move my medic next to the downed Scout that was still alive (gene mod also prolongs being critically wounded for 2 turns) but my fucking sniper missed 87% shot vs a Muton Commander that was still hiding there. So when I finally moved there next round, Scout died at that moment and Medic uncovered a Sectoid Commander that mind controlled him.

At this point I was down to one Sniper, wounded Engineer, spent Gunner and a Psi grenade Engineer (with no grenades left) and mind controlled Medic. It was down to a 67% shot from a sniper at a wounded Sectoid Commander or I would need to fight both him and my Medic... but finally my guy hit a important low chance shot (previously that same sniper managed to miss both double shot attempts at 90% vs another target). Fucking mission ended. Probably my worst missions so far. Combination of my fuckup and bad luck.

 

[mastroego]

Ouch, that's harsh man.

I also did a fun mission today.
It starts well, I scout and activate a pack of floaters.... I have the other guys prepare, including an In The Zone sniper... then I retreat my Scout and let them come.
The sniper gets even lucky the next round and kills like 4 of them by himself.
I say, well, the mission is good and done.

Then EVERYTHING comes at me, and I realize it's even a low cover map.
More floaters, Mutons, a Mechtoid, Outsider Engineers...
My guys start getting hit, starting from the sniper who loses his precious high aim.
A Sectoid Commander appears and mind-controls my Scout.
The next round the Scout beelines for the Assault... and I realize that's going to be the end of him, since the Assault has Close Combat Specialist.
Only the Assault misses like a 90% shot and my enslaved Scout survives... and CRITICALLY hits my assault.
One of the few good hits I score is against an Engineer inside the Ufo, with my Sniper, a heavy hit too but it retreats so I know it's wasted as it'll regenerate fully in a couple of turns.
The Sectoid Commander keeps Psi Panicking and MindFraying from afar, seemingly with no end. He never fails, at any rate..
Everything seems like it's going to fall apart, also because in this mess I manage to miss a couple of - badly needed - 90%+ shots, too

But I slowly crawl back, as it becomes a battle of attrition, all my guys trying to retreat, the medic doing runs "behind the lines"...
After a while only a few of my guys have some armor... and only because it's been restored by Medkits. Of which none are left.
Still, a Medkit also has healed the sniper who finally starts hitting bad guys again.
The Scout, who previously recovered, (after hitting another of my guys obviously) finally gets to do something and slows down a pack of Mutons with a Chem Grenade.
Even with at least a soldier constantly panicked I manage to invert the momentum and turn the tides of the battle.

In the end I was surprised to realize that only the sniper had sustained noticeable injuries. The armors take some punishment now

Then I just did another mission that was almost as fun, it was supposed to be an easy, small, downed UFO scout... but it was PACKED with HEAVY hitters, my assault ended up with 50 days of Infirmary.
I think I managed to survive only thanks to my single Engineer with Dense Smoke, who happened to be on the mission. It was the right ability to have, since whatever I did on one turn other BIG guys were going to fire on the next.
Still, Mechtoids with PSI shields are beasts.
One of them got the shield THREE times, it didn't want to die. And I was certainly in no position to go and find out where the psion was.
Sio "Curative" Meld is becoming my biggest Meld expenditure by far....

 

[ArchAngel]

Yea shielded Mechtoids are a pain. If possible I usually try to kill them on round 1 of combat before sectoids get a chance to buff them. I don't use dense smoke but all my medics are Smoke&Mirror and Combat Drugs medics. And I like to stack defense with Officer and other items if possible. Or Flashbang enemies with same Medic.

Usually when I throw smoke and damage enemies a bit and red fog kicks in, they just overwatch endlessly as they cannot hit shit.

 

[mastroego]

Yea shielded Mechtoids are a pain. If possible I usually try to kill them on round 1 of combat before sectoids get a chance to buff them.

I agree, in fact I did just that... with the first of them.

Very cleverly, if I say so myself, I first buffed my Arc_Rifle_carrying Medic with a Mind Merge, to ensure a 100% hit chance.
Then, after the first shot, I commanded her with my officer to fire again in the same turn.
Mechtoid down before it knew what hit it.

The second Mechtoid, though, apparently had the situation figured out by then and arrived nicely prepped and shielded, and I was out of tricks
I had judged I could handle a small, downed UFO with a C-Team after all.
Well, except for the infantry psion who's definitely part of the A-Team. In fact, I think I downed 2 or 3 aliens just by standing, thanks to Neural Feedback!

 

[ArchAngel]

Yea Neutral Feedback is the boss, Sectoids keep killing themselves on it :D
I give that to all my medics and Mindfray to my Infantry (I don't level up infantry more than that basic level, the point is to give them access to Neural Gunlink. And Medics use Psi Grenades (I don't use Chem Grenades as Berserkers are immune to acid), it has crazy AoE.

As for healing, I don't use Meld to heal units, I just train new ones while some are recovering. it is why I got 35 active soldiers and 9 more in reserve if some die or go into long recovery time. Soldiers don't get a lot of stats by leveling so even the CPL are almost as good as higher level ones for most missions (except Swarming Abduction and late game Exalt).

What is your standard team you send to non Abductions?
And what do you send to Abduction?

Also I have started training my attack Gunners and double tap Engineers into psionics :D

 

[ArchAngel]

I must say I am really enjoying my MECs, especially Shogun and Marauder. I am thinking of playing from start once I finish this campaign and this time rush MECs and try to have more of them.
Shogun and Marauder are really insane. I took Grenadier perk with Shogun. That lets him throw a grenade, then shoot at some uncovered enemy (flying ones and melee ones are always uncovered) and then he can throw another grenade (or use a flamethrower). I also use him to move into flank, shoot once and then use a grenade or flamethrower.

Marauder is equally crazy. You move him into melee range, get a 25 damage melee attack for free and then can also shoot or throw a grenade. Also gets to take perks that give him reaction fire like SHIVs have. also SHIVs with reaction fire equipment is awesome. If the mission is tough and I want extra firepower + tank one alloy SHIV with that reaction fire, holotargeter and extra armor fucking rocks. I have to pick up flying SHIVs at some point and try them as well.

 

[ArchAngel]

Heh, just did my first landed Very Large UFO. 45 enemies.. and I lost my best Infantry. He got one shot by a Leviathan Mechtoid that ran around the corner and he even had Titan armor on..
I didn't even know the fucker was that close.. fuck.

 

[mastroego]

What is your standard team you send to non Abductions?
And what do you send to Abduction?

Well I don't have a standard, really, I try to keep varied soldiers and abilities so in each mission I tend to cover the roles I feel I'll need, even switching specialties sometimes.
So I have the Hit & Run Scout who can double as an Assault with a rifle, I have a high aim Medic shooter who may "act" as an Infantry overwatcher or anti-machine sniper with the Arc-Rifle if need be.
And so on.
There are several standard specialists too, though.

For abuctions... again it depends.
As with Exalt missions, team size is an issue so I tend to bring Double-Tap Engineers and/or Double Tap Rocketeers (Rocketeers for exalt and engineers for aliens, usually), Grenadiers and all soldiers who can "double" actions.
Snipers are tricky here since while they do have multi-fire options they also need a setup, especially In The Zone snipers in this Rebalance, and these missions may not give you the time to use them properly.
So I might prefer Assaults to Snipers but Assaults have their own issues of course. But never forget Infantry, I love them too.

...and the SHIV, if I have the extra slots. Or even when I don't, often.
As you've seen, they solve quite a lot of problems, even if they're aren't as versatile as soldiers. That reaction fire module is indeed awesome, got me out of a few tricky situations while I wasn't even thinking about it, and the Holo Targeting helps a lot with a lot of team setups. I do try to have either the holo SHIV or a holo gunner around, unless everyone in my team can handle the targeting part by themselves nicely enough.
It sucks that the best SHIV modules weigh a lot, the little thing becomesalmost a stationary tank with all of them together, but hey, one cannot have everything....

 

[ArchAngel]

For Exalt missions I have settled on using grenadier Engineer as covert operative. I usually give him gauss pistol, AP and alien grenades and regeneration vest. If he starts on some roof I keep him there and grenade exalt from up there out of sight. He usually murders two groups of exalts himself

I got 3 such grenadiers for this, and now I am even training them in Psi for bonus power when enemy is too far for a grenade
Sometimes I take them on non exalt missions and usually they also kill 1-2 groups of enemies on their own. My guess is that a team of 4 such and medic could take down any Abuction mission but you would not get any corpses from these missions :D