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X-COM Firaxis - XCOM: Enemy Unknown + Enemy Within Expansion

spectre

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I disagree about Silent Storm engine being "bad". Some optimizations may have come in handy, but that's true for almost any engine. For its time, it had an impressive physics engine (and I think it still is now). Of course, lots of the calculations were wasted, because let's be hones, how often would you have the time on your hands to collapse a german mansion one storey after another exclusively using 7.62 autofire (I do recommend anyone to try it once in a lifetime though). Believe it or not, the ragdoll corpses also eat up a bit of computing power.

Same situation here, I assume the environs in the new Xcom are destructible, which means they eat up a lot of resources even if you're not actively destroying them at the moment. And that's the problem, slap on a bunch of animated hipoly actors and suddenly the xbrick begins to lose its breath. And it's something you cannot easily mitigate by cutting down texture size and vertices.
The only venue for improving performance at this point is reducing mapsize, the number of actors (which means you have to find the right balance between the number of controllable squaddies and enemies), or having a fixed camera angle. I'd personally go for the latter, but the whole acksun cam would be impossible then.

It's purely academic at this point, because the videos we have say little about the scope of the actual game. I do hope the it's not that small as it looks.
 

likaq

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SS had a shitty engine?

:decline:


It's crime that such a good base wasn't taken to it's logical conclusion; that is great TB rpg.
 

GarfunkeL

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SS ran like a hippo stuck in quicksand on my rig when it came out. It always lost when compared to similar games from the roughly same time period. Yes, this is my subjective fact but the maps were smaller than in X-Com or JA and you had less characters unless my memory fails me big time.
 
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I assume the environs in the new Xcom are destructible, which means they eat up a lot of resources even if you're not actively destroying them at the moment. And that's the problem, slap on a bunch of animated hipoly actors and suddenly the xbrick begins to lose its breath.

:what:

Shit doesn't work that way any longer. What you are describing is obsolete stuff from 90s (and in some cases, stuff that persisted into early 2000s). Nobody does destructable environments that interact with everything to the degree you are describing. More often scenario is, physics are completely out of the picture until stuff that are identified as environmentally interactive in the engine gets rolling. It could be bullet casts. It could be vehicles or explosives. It's conditional exclusive stuff. You could have the entire geometry of an urban level completely destructable and the game wouldn't lose a single frame unless bombs (or stuff-that-can-destroy-environment) started rolling.
 
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SS ran like a hippo stuck in quicksand on my rig when it came out. It always lost when compared to similar games from the roughly same time period. Yes, this is my subjective fact but the maps were smaller than in X-Com or JA and you had less characters unless my memory fails me big time.

You can't compete with JA2 in character count. You could have several squads of six people in the same map simultaneously and switch between them as befitted you.

It's amazing what an advanced game it is.
 

Haba

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SS ran like a hippo stuck in quicksand on my rig when it came out. It always lost when compared to similar games from the roughly same time period. Yes, this is my subjective fact but the maps were smaller than in X-Com or JA and you had less characters unless my memory fails me big time.

SS ran perfectly fine on both my out of date rig as well as my friend's. X-Com maps (1) were equally small.

AI turns lasted a while and blowing up large buildings would cause serious lag. But then again, loading up a single large UFO mission on X-Com 1 on my Amiga took 15-20 minutes back in the day...
 

Volrath

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I thought the maps in Silent Storm were too small tbh. Wasted potential like TOEE.
 

Онега

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XCOM art was inspired by comics
Where the fuck is this coming from?

"transforming meshes to adhere to the skeletons animation is many many many times faster on PC then console."
Now I'm all ears!
1! Where do you find skeletons in animation here? I know of exactly 1! game which has skeletons in animation. You would have maybe a skeleton in death if SHITCOM here had a physics engine. Does it have one?!
2! Transforming meshes is bajillion times faster on PC? Links to benches or analytical explanation of hardware and code involved. Else, fuck off. Consoles have traditionally excelled at specific math and sucked in storage.

It's not nearly as bad as total war but the characters are pretty detailed, and it saves a lot of time and money and eyewrenching LOD pops to skip making LODs if they can, which is the only way they can get more than about a dozen detailed characters on the screen.
LOD is a problem (performance and cost) on characters in this game? Are you kidding me? Tell me, how would you go on about creating LOD textures in this engine?
How do non LODed characters affect performance here? Quantitative description please, also exactly for this game.
Hint: they have body and armor types.

Silent Storm had squads of six and the game was slow as shit.
I call bullcrap. Its not related. I dont remember fps drops when many characters on screen. Proof, or are you talking out of your ass again?

spectre
I assume the environs in the new Xcom are destructible, which means they eat up a lot of resources even if you're not actively destroying them at the moment.
Why would they eat up a lot of resources (whats that?) while not being destroyed ?

garfunkel
SS ran like a hippo stuck in quicksand on my rig when it came out. It always lost when compared to similar games from the roughly same time period.
You obviously only comparing what you see. Thats not a proper comparison, professor.
 

Infinitron

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Enjoy the Revolution! Another revolution around the sun that is. Serpent in the Staglands Dead State Divinity: Original Sin Project: Eternity Torment: Tides of Numenera Wasteland 2 Shadorwun: Hong Kong Divinity: Original Sin 2 A Beautifully Desolate Campaign Pillars of Eternity 2: Deadfire Pathfinder: Kingmaker Pathfinder: Wrath I'm very into cock and ball torture I helped put crap in Monomyth
XCOM art was inspired by comics
Where the fuck is this coming from?

Not just Western comics, but also fucking MANGA
http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/VideoGame/X-COM?from=Main.X-COM

Animesque: The intro of the UFO Defense is proto-animesque, and the demo's list of features mentions a "popular "Manga" look and feel to graphics."

Source: http://commanderx.xcomufo.com/downloads/xcom1/xcompr2.txt

480px-UFO_Enemy_Unknown_opening_screen.png

Totally radical, dude!
 

likaq

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SS ran like a hippo stuck in quicksand on my rig when it came out. It always lost when compared to similar games from the roughly same time period. Yes, this is my subjective fact but the maps were smaller than in X-Com or JA and you had less characters unless my memory fails me big time.

True, game indeed had high system requirements and small maps, but like Spectre pointed out with some optimizations and bigger maps this engine would be truly awesome for TB rpg.
And high system requirements are no longer problem, even 5 years old computer can run SS with everything maxed and in high resolution with no problems.
 

GarfunkeL

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Still waiting for Knotalt to post his bullshit explanation about graphics.

You obviously only comparing what you see. Thats not a proper comparison, professor.
Which is why I wrote that it's my subjective opinion.

And high system requirements are no longer problem, even 5 years old computer can run SS with everything maxed and in high resolution with no problems.
No argument there, of course modern machines could run that stuff easily enough. My point was that I never understood, from a purely gamers POV (that has no background knowledge of the tech under the hood), why SS back then was more sluggish than X-Com or JA.
 

Marobug

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You have to transform the meshes to adhere to the skeleton's animations, which can be done many times faster on a PC than on any console.
What if instead of talking out of your ass you presented the source to all that knowledge you seem to possess ?
Even if it was true, it's kind of hard to believe having two more animated meshes would break the game. And even if it did, wouldn't it be much better to just have two less enemies in the map or just cut on the detail, have slightly smaller maps, whatever ? But of course, they had to cut the most significant and gameplay changing aspect to make up for those so called "technical limitations".

In GTA there's just static geometry which is easy to render. There's only a couple high detail characters on a screen at once and maybe a dozen lower detail level ones if you are lucky.
That's something called LOD, and pretty much every fully 3D game has it in some form. The new xcom is probably no different. Having destructible geometry is no excuse either, even the 3D worms games could have several animated meshes at once in the screen, in a fully destructible environment (unlike this xcom) and it ran without problems in much shittier hardware.

Also there isn't any total war game on consoles because it's a PC game through and through. Grand strategy games are not exactly what the console crowd wants and I wouldn't imagine myself playing a total war game with a controller.Or any strategy game for that matter, the very few released for the consoles flopped terribly for a reason.
CA did release a shitty action game loosely based on the series called Spartan total warrior or something. That game was released for the first xbox and ps2 and had shitloads of animated units at once in the screen as well. They also released a RTS for the consoles, Stormrise. Surprise surprise, it flopped.
 

GarfunkeL

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I'm beginning to think that Knotalt has no fucking clue about anything he keeps sprouting absolute shit informed stuff about. Next he's going to kick my ass through the Internet because he's a real badass.
 
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Project: Eternity
Like it or love it, Firxas is a AAA studio. This means a AAA budget, but also the requirements to get a minimum number of sales to justify that giant budget. I postulate that anyone who knows about, let alone plays dwarf fortress is already at least two standard deviations from the norm and there are just not enough people this far out on the bell curve to meet the sales requirements. By comparision, I consider Angry Birds to be about the center or slightly left of center of the "strategy" bell curve (it is a strategy game and look at the number of players). This means that In order to satisfy their corporate overlords I don’t think Firaxis can afford to aim any more than one standard deviation more complex than Angry Birds. This is the same reasoning that lets me compare the complexity of civ IV vs. V. The question then becomes how much “streamlining” can the average codexian stomach, and in the off chance that a developer gets ahold of this information, possible suggestions. With that in mind, here are my thoughts.

Time units Vs. Move and shoot: Clearly this is “streamlining” since it removes the choice between leaving one guy further back, but able to provide better cover versus moving to a better position, but spending half his time running himself. Now there is no opportunity cost for repositioning. This removes a bit of tactical depth, but will tend to make the game progress faster. My opinion; I don’t like it, but I can stomach it.

Max of 4(6) units: I would like to think this is a concession to consoles that do “pretty” very well, but can’t really handle “thinking”. However I fear that this is a design decision that will bring the same degree of unintended (negative) consequences that one unit per tile did in Civ V. On the face of it, it brings tighter, more tactical games, a salve to those who did not like such things as keeping track of 4 separate bases and 3 fronts in some of the later RTS games. This also forces the game into much smaller maps because clearing medium sized or larger maps would be effectively impossible for such a small team. Combined with the above, we get small, fast paced missions. I am also sure the word “dynamic” was also used in the design meetings. However, let’s start dissecting some of the negative unintended consequences.

One of the defining themes of X-Com is that you start out initially in way over your head. This makes clawing out and eventually defeating the aliens that much sweeter (yay underdogs). NOTHING makes you feel more like the underdog than actually losing. If you know that your interceptors don’t stand a chance one on one against an alien ship that your squad mates will die in a mission you really feel like an underdog. The first time I am able complete a difficult mission without any causalities is an unbelievably sweet feeling. However, despite what the press releases say, with only 4 squad members, having any of them die is not really an option.

When I was playing X-Com early on, I would generally have 1 heavy weapon guy, 1 specialist (sniper/psi), and the rest riflemen. The former would provide the heavy backup that could prove critical, but the latter would be the soldiers who actually did the work of clearing rooms and exploring buildings. Sadly, their front-line position meant that they were usually the ones who ate it. I had a difficult strategic decision in balancing the number of specialists versus riflemen. With only 4 soldiers my choices are severely limited. Option one is to take all riflemen so I can explore effectively. However if this is a viable option then why have specialists at all. Conversely, if the game difficulty is calibrated such that specialists are needed and I take one sniper and one heavy weapon I can have only 2 riflemen. If one of them dies I have not lost 15% of my exploration capability, I have lost half of it. Of course "fixing” brings in an unintended consequence. Firaxis can generalize specialties; re. snipers get move and shoot. The problem either this is not enough (back to the first problem) or is enough which is that this removes real choice because if both riflemen and snipers are generalized (e.g. can move once and shoot once), there is no real difference and we get the second problem. The latter (apparently selected option) also breaks immersion because said flexibility means that there is no penalty for having your sniper kicking down doors and clearing rooms.

Perks vs. training: I understand that moving to the center means moving away from numbers and math. I also believe that the designers feel that picking special “perks” gives a bigger thrill than watching stats climb. I disagree, but I will stomach this if I have to. However, I would like to point a few flaws in this though process. The first is the “lauded” fact that you don’t even know a soldier’s specialty until after the first mission. Unless X-Com changed from elite unit pulling the crème de la crème from across the world to a bunch of average Joes that just drafted the contents of the local YMCA, I would assume that you have a pretty good idea of each person’s capabilities. Give rookies large penalties to hit, or better yet make much more likely to panic (oh wait you can’t, because one guy who panics and kills a teammate will cripple your small squad) and it would be much more realistic than not realizing that perhaps Sylvester 'chaingunner' McBuff might be good with heavy weapons.

The other problem with perks is that (going back to the small squad size) you are going to be picking the same perks for every character anyway. Either the perks will be functionally identical, e.g. 10% increase in rate of fire, or 10% increase in damage both result in 10 more dps, or due to the small squad size, or will range from crippling to overpowered depending on random circumstances. For example, imagine a perk that let you fire twice, but cut your range in half in a building map, and than again in a canyon map. Because of the small squad size you can really only take one person for a given role. This means that you cannot afford to take the latter type of perk in case you pick wrong and end up crippling 25% of your team. As a result you will always get generic perks, and if they are all generic, why have them at all?

Unlimited ammo: Although the previous three points are design decisions that I may not agree with, eliminating ammo is like having a golf simulator that ignores the effects of wind. An easy fix to the issues (such as they were) with the original X-Com is to create a default load-out for each solider, have them unload fully at the end of a mission, and reload fully to that value at the start of each mission. If you want to “streamline” things, create a weapons locker in your ship that allows one to either reload back to default (selected) values or grab extra ammo if desired. The only upside to the current design is that it allows you to remove the inventory screen in battles (personally I consider this a downside). While this certainly “streamlines” things and moves the game towards the center, the downsides are nearly game breaking.

The first is that with no ammo limitations, single shots, bursts, and full auto have to be effectively identical. If you have no ammo restriction and shooting 20 rounds downrange does more damage then why would you only shoot once? To balance this, the designers either have to put steep restrictions on the effectiveness of fully automatic fire (and bursts), or give unrealistic advantages to single shots.

The next reason is even bigger. Ammunition is heavy, no seriously; try picking up a box of ammo some time if you don’t believe me. In fact the reason heavy weapons had teams was generally so that a second or third person could carry the ammo the heavy weapon required. In X-Com I did this by having a rifleman carry extra ammo in his backpack so he could both protect the heavy gunner (remember specialization) and keep him fed, but tis is not really an option anymore because of the small squad size. Limited ammo also means that you can never afford to carry enough ammunition to be profligate with it. Because of this, you don’t have to balance fully automatic with single shots and you have the option to go nuts (and get a few “oh shit” moments when you run dry). Tactically it matters when deciding to use a rocket on a wall to give you a safe entry point versus keeping one spare for a group of aliens. Strategically it matters when deciding on whether to give a solider an extra clip or an extra grenade, and can a medic really afford to carry grenades or extra ammo without being weighed down too much. I cannot stress enough how much limited ammo changes the entire flavor of the game. It affects every decision of when, and how much to shoot. It affects what weapons you take (or don't take), how aggressivly you attack and how much support you bring along. It may not even be too hyperbolic to say that removing ammo will essentially remove most of the flavor from the tactical combat of the game.
Satellites vs. satellite bases: A final point but I don’t really understand why this decision was made. Generally when I played, I would have one main base with R&D, hospitals, and the bulk of my troops, and several satellite bases where I could put interceptors and quick response teams. Flying halfway around the world made a difference, and added a nice (minor but real) strategic decision based on fast response (North Africa and Panama) or good coverage for your paying clients (North America and Europe). Removing this seems like dumbing down for the sake of dumbing down.
 

potatojohn

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They took out TUs and went with "actions" so they can dynamically fudge the numbers to adjust the difficulty to make sure consoletards don't get too frustrated with dying.

2K Jews is the shittiest publisher ever. I went to the X-COM forums, saw the username "2K Elizabeth" and instinctively closed the browser.
 

Marobug

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Silent storm was a PC exclusive, so I fail to see how that could prove consoles are slower at rendering animated meshes in comparison with PCs ?

Rendering 2D sprites is much faster than rendering 3D meshes with animations, no shit. Silent Storm's engine was slow because it was badly optimized. Take any total war game from rome onwards and explain me how they managed to have almost 1000 units at once in the screen and still run fine in a mid to low end pc. SS had destructible enviroments ? So did Worms and it ran fine in my shitty intel powered laptop back then.
Ufo:extraterrestrials ran fine as well and you could blow shit up as well while having more than 4 squad members. That was five years ago. Silent Storm was released like 9 years ago. Back then people were jerking off to the newly released xbox 1, so as you might imagine technology stepped up quite a bit since then. And no, I won't take that as a source for your bullshit.
 

Haba

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After finishing another large map with 100 turns and 9 units, I will add that large maps do not fucking work in turn based games. No matter how good UI you have and how slick your combat system is. Just remember the cruiser missions in TFD.
 

spectre

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Marobug said:
Take any total war game from rome onwards and explain me how they managed to have almost 1000 units at once in the screen and still run fine in a mid to low end pc.
These 1000 units become 2D sprites when you zoom out (how far depends on your rig and settings), here's the magic.
The actual number of fully rendered and animated 3D units is much lower. Moreover, they do all sorts of nifty tricks like cloning some of the soldiers on screen (and they can get away with it bacause they usually stand in formation) which frees up some of the computing power.

Ufo:extraterrestrials ran fine as well and you could blow shit up as well while having more than 4 squad members. That was five years ago.
And, incidentally, extraterrestrials wasn't 3d and didnt have any complex physics calculations. Just saying, it makes a difference.

Dunno why it is so hard to grasp. In a 2d engine, destructible environment only requires swapping a few 2D tiles around.
If you want to do the same in a 3d engine, you have to apply physics and create special meshes as the scenery gets destroyed.
But, that's just the beginning. an even bigger bitch is the lighting and shadows that have to be made dynamic to accomodate for the destruction. Otherwise, after you blow up the wall, its shadow will remain there and ruin yahr immershun.
No, really, it'll just look extremely shiitty.


TBS said:
If your game doesn't feature a squad wiping itself out though the insane use of explosives, high-powered weapons, innapropriate berserker shooting and panic attacks after the appropriate deaths and psi attacks, its not X-COM
It will be xcom in name only. It's high time to face the music, imo, because that much was evident when the first batch of screenies arrrived. The only question at the moment is if it can be a fun game nonetheless.

The lower number of soldiers may mean the game gets easier and dumbed down.
It may be so. Although you have to notice that the gameplay has changed considerably. It is now based on cover, flanking and mobility. Not saying it will be better for it, but the fact is that it won't be the xcom gameplay we know and remember.
 

Raghar

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4 squad members also mean less gamistic tactic in TB system. When someone had 10 squad members he can use few of them to force enemy into oportunity fire, and then simply charge him with the rest. No need for flanking or whatever. Trying something like that in 7.62 would only get you killed. While some gangsta can't hit barn door from a distance, it's different situation when they are more close.

The one of few problems would be, you'd be moving them in one big blob.

I find if funny some members here only recently discovered it would have squad limit, and other few differences, it would have. Unlimited ammo removal would be much more imortant than mere 4-6 squad members. How many squad members can you deploy in JA2? Aftermath had 7, Aftershock 5-7, Afterlight 7. Some other games 3. ToEE 5.
 

spectre

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^Y'know the problem isn't the squad limit vs. Jagged alliance, but the squad limit vs. Ufo Enemy Unknown, the game they're claiming to remake.
Sure, you can have a deep, tactical experience with just 4 units, thing is how does it compare to the original gameplay (and I already answered this question above, obviously it doesn't).
 

The_scorpion

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it becomes increasingly evident that (modern/ next gen) 3d engines just cannot into proper tactical squad based games :obviously:
 

spectre

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Can you with 4 units?
You can. Check out the new indie thingie: Mysterious Castle. Even though you only get three guys and it uses a very, very watered down version of D&D ruleset, it has nice tactical moments.
Unfortunately, and that's my greatest concern with the new xcom, it's only possible on an epic scale of fighting over a gas station or shooting your way through a supermarket.

If they have such small squads the difficulty will have to be toned down by a factor of ten and considering there's a cover system I'm guessing this game will be quite popamole, just turn based popamole.
My impression is that plasma fire isn't as lethal as it was. Which is sad, although here's hoping they were playing on easy and the stuff we're seeing is just the introductory missions.
Also, fuck this "popamole" bullshit. It only applies to fps. JA2 has cover, does that make it popamole? If you want a semi-raelisitic strategy game involving firearms, you have to put in cover, suppresive fire and flanking. I actually welcome these changes, because tactics-wise the original xcom was pretty pitiful - it was all about scouting and sniping (and sometimes blowing shit up because it blocks LoS).
 

The_scorpion

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Unfortunately, and that's my greatest concern with the new xcom, it's only possible on an epic scale of fighting over a gas station or shooting your way through a supermarket.

If they have such small squads the difficulty will have to be toned down by a factor of ten and considering there's a cover system I'm guessing this game will be quite popamole, just turn based popamole.
My impression is that plasma fire isn't as lethal as it was. Which is sad, although here's hoping they were playing on easy and the stuff we're seeing is just the introductory missions.
Also, fuck this "popamole" bullshit. It only applies to fps. JA2 has cover, does that make it popamole? If you want a semi-raelisitic strategy game involving firearms, you have to put in cover, suppresive fire and flanking. I actually welcome these changes, because tactics-wise the original xcom was pretty pitiful - it was all about scouting and sniping (and sometimes blowing shit up because it blocks LoS).

- Yes. Scales are an issue. Damned 3d engines that only look decent on very small scales.

- Cover done right (Ja2) vs. cover done next-gen (most shooters) is an issue as well. I don't see why the pathing in the new xcom has to highlight some shield icons to where your char in the new position would be protced unless it is too hard for the player to accurately assess possible cover in the new location. Now the optics alone (like sitting behind the motor block of a car) should give you enough of a hint how well you're covered, the most likely reasons why you still have to indicate it to players is that either 1. the cover system sucks oder 2. your target audience is expected to be retarded.



let's hope it's 2. :smug:
 

Marobug

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These 1000 units become 2D sprites when you zoom out (how far depends on your rig and settings), here's the magic.
The actual number of fully rendered and animated 3D units is much lower. Moreover, they do all sorts of nifty tricks like cloning some of the soldiers on screen (and they can get away with it bacause they usually stand in formation) which frees up some of the computing power.
That 2D sprites thing is not true. If you put dozens of armies in the screen, rise the camera and then rotate you can clearly see they are still 3D models.
What I think you are talking about when you talk about cloning, is instancing. It's basically using copies of the meshes instead of the actual mesh which is significantly faster and pretty much every strategy game uses it, and I suspect xcom will too.
But regardless of whatever optimization techniques they used, firaxis can use them too or at least some of them so that's not the issue.

And, incidentally, extraterrestrials wasn't 3d and didnt have any complex physics calculations. Just saying, it makes a difference.

Dunno why it is so hard to grasp. In a 2d engine, destructible environment only requires swapping a few 2D tiles around.
If you want to do the same in a 3d engine, you have to apply physics and create special meshes as the scenery gets destroyed.
But, that's just the beginning. an even bigger bitch is the lighting and shadows that have to be made dynamic to accomodate for the destruction. Otherwise, after you blow up the wall, its shadow will remain there and ruin yahr immershun.
No, really, it'll just look extremely shiitty.

Wut. Ufo extraterrestrials was 3D. Destruction in 3D scenarios doesn't work like you say. Instead of 2D tiles there are pre-defined 3D meshes that will gain a realistic physic behavior once hit. That's not that CPU expensive. There are no extra dynamic lighting and shadows calculations to be made because of the destructible scenarios, they are constantly being updated regardless of whether something was destroyed or moved. That's why it's called dynamic lightining.


And hey Knotanalt, in the meantime you haven't answered to what I said. I have no idea what the fuck you're talking about but that's definitely not about the topic in question.
 

mr.doo

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Knotanalt is a retard, news at eleven.
 

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