For those who played Fallout 2 before playing Fallout

[TwinkieGorilla]

[rpg codex]there is NO SUCH THING as a good game![/rpg codex]


amirite?

 

[Carlos' Bitch1]

It's not wanting "Mona Fucking Lisa" for me... I just want to be able to maintain Willing Suspension of Disbelief. Fallout 1 does a much better job at allowing you to maintain that, IMO. And not being able to maintain WSoD can seriously impact how much fun the game is to play, I think. Just like it can spoil a movie (see Indiana Jones: Temple of Doom for a good example).

Oh, so you hate a game that breaks your immersion? When it's part of a game's theme, this is completely acceptable: FO2's humor makes fun of said "Willing Suspension of Disbelief" by throwing everything cliché you would expect out of such a setting. Think comics, pulp fiction, B movies. Everything is exaggerated, but contrary to most opinions everything is handled with finesse. Why, you ask? Because the designers managed to explain everything within the game's terms, made a believable political agenda for each party, raised some important aforementioned issues, and provided the wasteland with a sound economical system. FO2 is about civilization happening again, and everything good and bad that comes with it.

And the Master was just a way more interesting and less annoying villain than the dumbass caricature that is the Enclave. I don't see how that can really be argued.

Elaborate.

I cannot speak for anyone else, but the Master came across as much more interesting.

The Master, of which you gain small hints and insights into throughout the game, had his mind warped through the FEV he came into contact with, and also the various creatures, people and machines that were "absorbed" into him.

It seemed that while his mind continued to be the driving force, the addition of the other minds, along with the logical computers that joined with him, made him rationalise the entire playing field into something that was "fair" across the board. Raising all humanity to one level in order to get over the never ending hatreds of difference, prejudice and aggressive tendencies that lead to the predicament that mankind found themselves in.

That his theory is flawed, and that the player can show this flaw, to the main enemy himself no less, is superior to the Enclave;

The Enclave is the remnants of the US government. For some odd reason, it has sat around on an oil rig for many years. The vaults were apparently test cases for some unknown reason, as the tests themselves are entirely without worth that I could see.

It had decided, at some stage, that any humans that had been ever so slightly mutated should be eradicated in order that the pure humans from the oil rig could recolonise the continent. In order for the player to stop this, they can sway a scientist to start a destruct sequence for a nuclear weapon (same as F1). However, the main heads of the enclave, namely the President, cannot be swayed by anything. He is a moron. Likewise, Horrogan, himself mutated, also cannot be swayed into realising that he, too, would be an unnecessary aberration once the cleansing of the nation had been enacted.

The so called leader of the free world cannot be persuaded. A mutant dog of the president, who surely must know at some level or at least be able to be persuaded that he is just a tool with a use by date (especially considering the thoughts and plans of his masters), also is incognito to reason; The weird, mutated creature that is the Master, can be persuaded that his ideas are not necessarily to the benefit of all, nor are they completely sound, being that the mutants are sterile. He is capable of taking cognisance of these facts and calling it a day.

 

[Cassidy]

I played Fallout 2 first, back when I bought it together with Deus Ex and Thief: The Dark Project. After playing the original, I think it is superior to the sequel. No frustrating random encounters, a practical way to finish it without any combat and the more convincing, somber world and mood.

The time limit also was something I liked. It's, together with decent enough gameplay mechanics and non-combat alternatives, the best possible demotivator for level treadmill for single-player games.

The only things where Fallout 2 is better are the improved inventory interface, which includes the fact it's not necessary to "steal" from party NPCs, the fact you can order Sulik to not burst fire an enemy while you are at the middle and the fact you can push NPCs aside to avoid getting stuck and having either to reload the game or kill them.

 

[Secretninja]

Your name is Cassidy. You are therefore biased.
BTW
This thread consists of valid arguments from the fearless leader, LOLNO I WIN from 1eyedking, and lots of tl;dr
1eyedking is teh ghey

 

[J1M]

This thread was an interesting read. I have a few observations.

A lot of people here seem to be vastly underestimating how long 80 years is. Especially in a climate that is politically malleable.

The majority of posters seem to have some sort of clear distinction between the two games and treat them as separate. This was interesting, because to me Fallout and Fallout 2 do not seem that different.

I played Fallout first with its rad scorpions, mentats, FEV, etc. I saw it as being a bit goofy and having a sense of humor. I am greatly confused as to how anyone could play Fallout and think of it as SUPER SERIOUS BUSINESS.

The only thing that was totally retarded about Fallout 2 was the suggestion that, I, the legendary vault dweller, would have founded a society so poorly that it ended up being a tribal shithole.

 

[jagged-jimmy]

... SUPER SERIOUS BUSINESS.

As i understand it, its more of:

Fallout had coherent world/design, while there were some pop culture references and goofs mixed in.
Fallout 2 on the other hand, had a lot of stuff only for the purpose of goofs and lulz.

Bottomline: Fallout was well designed, while Fallout 2 was fun. And they both share mechanics we love in RPGs. Which one is better overall is a matter of opinion and individual preferences.

 

[J1M]

... SUPER SERIOUS BUSINESS.

As i understand it, its more of:

Fallout had coherent world/design, while there were some pop culture references and goofs mixed in.
Fallout 2 on the other hand, had a lot of stuff only for the purpose of goofs and lulz.

Bottomline: Fallout was well designed, while Fallout 2 was fun. And they both share mechanics we love in RPGs. Which one is better overall is a matter of opinion and individual preferences.

Thanks. I didn't get that was some people's opinion from the last 12 pages.

 

[Gragt]

Vaults do. They predate the world after the apocalypse. They never had to rebuild anything, they carried legal systems from before times. As far as I know they held councils, arrested criminals, and had record sheets of everyone at the Vault. As I said, they're an isolated case. I'm just repeating myself here.

That's a bit different from bureaucracy. Even early civilisations like Ancient China had bureaucracy but it emerged because the task of administering such a huge territory required it. Vaults, the way they are created, do not really require excessive bureaucracy especially the kind shown in Fallout 2.

By your same logic the Brotherhood of Steel from FO1 wouldn't require the complex organizational systems it had because everything has gone to shit.

I do not really see the BoS as complex, it's actually quite a simple hierarchy, and it's all they need for their purposes.

Kung-fu is but one quest in a sea of cool branching missions.

The Dragon and Lo Pan have quite an impact on the town and are pretty much central to the area.

Scientologists are forgettable.

But they are still present and have quite a large compound.

I see nothing wrong with mobsters. Except for the fedora hats and tommy guns, can't forget those.

Doesn't really fit the setting.

Tribals are almost never mentioned again once you exit Arroyo.

Many NPC will mention the fact that your character is a tribal, and you can also play with this yourself. There are also slavers in The Den or NCR, dealing in tribals. You can even recruit one in Klamath and that might also get some mentions from some NPC.

When I read "80 years passed" I think in "a hefty amount of time passed and stuff happened". Go tell humanity 80 years ago that they would suffer yet another World War, invent computers, go to the moon, drop nuclear bombs, etc.; a lot of shit can go down in 80 years.

Ever read Jules Verne? There was a lot of anticipation in his work, and they often appear deliciously dated, but he still wrote of travels in space, air and water in ways that aren't completely silly considering our current technologies. Even someone like Leibnitz wrote many documents that predated the creation of the computer by a few centuries but were close to the actual concepts some scientists worked on later. It's something of the human nature to anticipate. And then you have great minds like Cleveland Mark Blakemore who can predict future events with terrific accuracy.

Finally please remember the people from Shady Sands are actually descendants from Vault 15.

The people who forgot about basic agricultural concepts like crop rotation and worshipped a local divinity called Dharma?

 

[poocolator]

Let's talk about how Fallout 3 is different now... lol

 

[Sander]

Yes, Tim Cain genuinely likes what Bethesda did to Fallout 3, even though he said he didn't want Fallout 2 to happen and called PS:T a JRPG.

No, he said he didn't want to work on a Fallout 2 at that point in time, and he said that Planescape: Torment had a pretty linear story and put you in the place of a certain character but was otherwise completely awesome. Which it did.

There's also a significant difference between a game designer commenting on stuff he himself did (and when he's critical of it you can be extremely sure he means it), and a game designer commenting on the work of another game designer.
Effectively, Tim Cain didn't say much about Fallout 3 other than "it's a cool game".

Oh, so you hate a game that breaks your immersion? When it's part of a game's theme, this is completely acceptable: FO2's humor makes fun of said "Willing Suspension of Disbelief" by throwing everything cliché you would expect out of such a setting. Think comics, pulp fiction, B movies. Everything is exaggerated, but contrary to most opinions everything is handled with finesse. Why, you ask? Because the designers managed to explain everything within the game's terms, made a believable political agenda for each party, raised some important aforementioned issues, and provided the wasteland with a sound economical system. FO2 is about civilization happening again, and everything good and bad that comes with it.

That still doesn't mean that Kung Fu Battles (or basically all of San Francisco. Fuck San Francisco) fit the setting. And no, they don't just serve a minor role in San Francisco. They are the focal point of the main area.
And the other shit in San Francisco is even worse. Hubologists and a Space Shuttle? Are you kidding me?

And no, actually, they didn't manage to provide a sound economical system in which New Reno would have been able to rise up and prosper in an environment with very limited travelling, no explanation for where they get their food or resources, or how slinging drugs makes you the richest man alive in a world where people have trouble getting food.

Yes, some of this can be assumed to be done behind the scenes. Most of it, however, simply doesn't fit. And although New Reno was a lot of fun, it fit Fallout neither stylistically, thematically or logically.

The people who forgot about basic agricultural concepts like crop rotation and worshipped a local divinity called Dharma?

I'm fairly certain that it's supposed to be an Indian reference, but that Tim Cain et al purposefully kept all real-world religions out of the game.
Not disagreeing with your main point, just characterising Dharma as a 'local divinity' isn't entirely fair.

 

[J1M]

Why does everyone here assume drugs are a luxury item that people rationally decide to partake in once they have met all of life's normal obligations?

Drugs are far more rampant in downtrodden societies than healthy ones.

Drugs, drug lords, and crime bosses who manage the supply lines of said drugs are some of the most realistic aspects of the Fallout setting.

Additionally, worship of stupid religions is more, not less, likely when shit happens.

For people trying to come at these games from the perspective of detached intellectualism, you sure are forgetting a lot about human nature.

 

[Vault Dweller]

Drugs are far more rampant in downtrodden societies than healthy ones.

Because the Fallout setting isn't a decadent, crumbling society. It's a fucking wasteland. The civilization has been wiped clean. Good riddance and all that.

What are drugs? An opportunity to make a lot of money. For whom? For chemists, for gangs, for transporters. Well, things are very different in the wasteland:

1. Anyone who has a working knowledge of chemistry will make a lot more money/goods making literally priceless healing pills (painkillers, antibiotics, fever/cough medicine, etc). There is simply no reason to waste time on recreational drugs anymore, especially considering the addictive factor, which is our next point.

2. PA communities are small. Every man counts, every pair of hands needed. In the modern societies nobody really gives a fuck that junkies, useless shite, and bored college kids use drugs. They aren't needed, to put it simply. In a PA world nobody can afford to feed a man who's fucking high all the time, a man who doesn't take care of things but has to be taken care of, a man who can spread this disease. So, I'd say there is 99% chance that anyone who's using drugs will be kicked out and die in the wasteland. A trader who brings drugs will probably be killed as a lesson to others because he weakens communities - a sin that won't be tolerated.

Not to mention that modern cities provide endless supply of drug-users. Who cares if 10,000 people die? There is more where they came from. In a PA world with few survivors, one can't afford to lose even a single customers, which is why making healing medicine is a much more profitable occupation for a chemist.

3. Gangs. In the modern world small gangs live in abandoned buildings and shacks, while drug cartels enjoy the comfort of villas, hot chicks, swimming pools, and every possible luxury. Well, in a PA world it's either abandoned, semi-destroyed buildings or shacks. There is nothing else there. A small gang can easily take over a place like Shady Sands, having the villagers to work for them. This will be as close to luxury as it will get for a very long time. What reason would they have to look for chemists, start expensive production and test trials, establish distribution channels, ensure protection, which sounds like a major fucking headache, when they can already live like kings in Shady Sands?

Drugs, drug lords, and crime bosses who manage the supply lines of said drugs are some of the most realistic aspects of the Fallout setting.

Riiight.

 

[J1M]

What you are describing, VD, is a rational utopia and not at all realistic.

That you think a chemist is required for people to get high is equally laughable. Becoming a drug dealer in that situation is as simple as being the guy who looted all the glue/paint/solvent from a department store.

 

[Black]

What you are describing, VD, is a rational utopia

I don't think you know what an utopia is.

 

[Vault Dweller]

:facepalm:

Is thinking frowned upon where you come from? Everything was nuked to hell in 2077. The Jet hit the streets in 2241. How much glue/paint/solvent you can find in the department stores 170 years after the war?

If you're talking in general, it depends on a setting, but my points still stand. There simply aren't enough pre-requisites for organized crime and especially for drug lords. The market isn't there. There is a good reason why even today there is a dramatic difference between urban and rural drug use stats. Smaller communities handle it very differently.

 

[Sander]

What you are describing, VD, is a rational utopia and not at all realistic.

That you think a chemist is required for people to get high is equally laughable. Becoming a drug dealer in that situation is as simple as being the guy who looted all the glue/paint/solvent from a department store.

Apparently, you did not notice the chemist NPC that you can recruit that went through a loooooot of effort to invent Jet.

Mind-altering substances will be used, and are used throughout Fallout. But the use and existence of them is a far cry from the third largest place in the region being nothing but a warring ground for 4 different organised crime families who all want a piece of the drug pie.

There's a significant difference between Fallout's villages, and the downtrodden societies with drug use you are talking about, which can usually be found in densely populated but poor areas, such as South-African cities.

 

[Sander]

Ever noticed how those three towns are the places with more jet? Because there's almost no law and order there, and most of their work can be done by slaves! They don't care about working hands. It would be strange to see druggies in Modoc or Klamath, but there are none. Quantity of jet you can buy in Modoc and Klamath? Zero.

Redding had a sheriff's office.

But the presence and use of drugs isn't really in question. It's the rise of an entire town and four different organised crime families warring over drugs, and moreover spending a *lot* of resources on developing new and more effective drugs, whereas the userbase isn't so large that it warrants that kind of treatment.

Vault City. Myron can make stims and other people probrably can, too, so it would't be weird for the families to sell medicine on the side. NCR and BOS also supply medicine. Jacob knew chemistry, too, so he was probrably the man to go in Broken Hills when it came to medicine, and it doesn't seems a strech for him to deal drugs behind Marcus' back.

This is all a bunch of conjecture that doesn't really work. Vault City barely provided medical service to outsiders, there's no proof whatsoever of Jacob making medicine and NCRs state of affairs in the same is hardly clear.

 

[Chefe]

Fallout 1 is the oddball in the Fallout franchise. The other games (2, Tactics, BOS, 3) were all about the lulz and the stupid. Fallout 1 isn't a true Fallout because it's the outlier and doesn't stay true to the Fallout spirit created by the later three games.

 

[Black]

Fallout 1 is the oddball in the Fallout franchise. The other games (2, Tactics, BOS, 3) were all about the lulz and the stupid. Fallout 1 isn't a true Fallout because it's the outlier and doesn't stay true to the Fallout spirit created by the later three games.

It's funny because it's true.
Although really it's kinda sad the the majority of Fallout franchise is about lol randum xd shit

 

[Vault Dweller]

VD, I think you're not thinking it thoughly. You're thinking on a "short-after the apocalypse perspective." Fallout 2 is 80 years after Fallout, there's a lot more civilization and people.

80 years isn't enough. Just think about it. Everything is nuked, right? A small groups of survivors live in villages like Shady Sands, makeshift towns like Junktown, and ruins like the Hub. Sure, people know a lot, comparing to what people who lived in similar conditions 2,000 years ago knew, but they can't make anything. Can they build a factory? I don't think so. Can they make cars again? Nope. Too many parts and components. Most likely the survivors would not be able to maintain old techno places, so things would slowly become worse as less and less wonders of the old world are available, and then the mankind will follow the familiar road: they would make wooden wheels, get animals to pull their carts and carriages, build wooden houses, etc.

So, 80 years after Fallout the world would look more organized (nobody lives in ruins and shacks), but more primitive. It would look like the early days of Wild West, but with technology elements. Maybe steampunkish. The Vault City, NCR, SF, organized crime, drug lords, vertibirds, more guns, new guns like gauss rifles definitely don't fit.

If anything, pre-war weapons should have become more rare and expensive. Most weapons should have been new homemade stuff mimicking the old designs, but less reliable and of inferior quality.

 

[1eyedking]

OK, enough of this moronic pseudo-intellectual crap, it's time to kick some monoclian ass.

First things first, @BlackAdder:
You've made some conjectures, but they're admissible. The Master's plan, however, is nothing short of genocidal:

{110}{Mast02}{I will conquer it and turn all those pure strain humans into mutants.
 They will give me the army I need to bring peace to the entire wasteland.}

{119}{Mast06}{The Unity will bring about the master race. Master! Master!
 One able to survive, or even thrive, in the wasteland. As long as there are
 differences, we will tear ourselves apart fighting each other. We
 need one race. Race! Race! One goal. Goal! Goal! One people . . . to
 move forward to our destiny. Destiny.}

{122}{Mast07}{Of course. Mutants are best equipped to deal with the world today.
 Who else? The ghouls. Please. Normals. They brought nuclear
 death to us all. This will be the age of mutants. Mutants.}

{126}{Mast08}{All that resist, yes. All those that are required for the
 Unity as well. The remainder will be allowed to live out their days,
 but under Unity control and protection. But none shall breed, for they
 will be the last of their race.}

{134}{Mast10}{I'm not after the world, yet. When I turn your fellow vault-dwellers
 into mutants, my forces will be too strong for any to stand against!
 But don't worry, you won't care. Care! Care!}

{179}{Mast32}{Of course not. Most will be offered a chance to become
 a mutant. Those who deny this opportunity will be sterilized and let go.
 Those that resist will be executed.}

{182}{Mast33}{We are all biased, are we not?  We each care more about
 our individual communities than other people. We haven't changed, and
 I'll tell you something else . . .}

{182}{Mast33}{We are all biased, are we not?  We each care more about
 our individual communities than other people. We haven't changed, and
 I'll tell you something else . . .}

{184}{Mast34}{We won't change. Not unless we are of one people. One. One. One. One
 race. One. One. One. The Unity will allow us to move beyond these
 petty concerns and deal with the major problems at hand.  You want to
 be a part of that, don't you? Part. Don't.}

{187}{Mast35}{Of course! The mutants will survive! The mutants will rebuild this
 world! And only as a mutant, will you be allowed to live! Live. Die!}

How's this so different from the Enclave's plan?

{174}{prs19}{I am the elected representative of the people. The United States does still exist. God bless us, every one. We've just had to adapt in order to survive after the war.}
{197}{prs24}{There was a great war long before we were born. Our gallant soldiers fought from the Yukon to the Yangtze.}
{216}{prs32}{We were winning, too. And then those damn Reds launched everything they had. We barely got our birds up.}
{218}{prs33}{Well, no it didn't. But at least it knocked the damn Red menace back into the stone age.}
{220}{prs34}{Well, no. No... not quite. You see, we had planned ahead. We were ready. }
{222}{prs35}{We had a number of sanctuaries that would enable the glorious American civilization to endure. These facilities - the vaults  - were part of the great plan.}
{224}{prs36}{Actually, they worked almost exactly the way they were supposed to. You might call it a social experiment on a grand scale. }
{226}{prs36a}{The vaults were set up to test humanity. Some had not enough food synthesizers, others had only men in them, yet others were designed to open after only 6 months. They each had a unique set of circumstances designed to test the occupants.}
{228}{prs37}{Ahh. Vault 13 was a special case. It was supposed to remain closed until the subjects were needed. Vault 13 was, in scientific parlance, a control group.}
{230}{prs38}{An unfortunate, and unforeseen, accident. However, as it turns out, a rather fortuitous one.}
{232}{prs39}{As it turns out we needed test subjects from untainted, pre-war, human stock - your ancestors in Vault 13 - and some freshly mutated stock - the villagers from Arroyo.}
{234}{prs39a}{For the Project. It's almost ready. Humanity's salvation is almost at hand and the United States of America will be the progenitor of that rebirth.}
{236}{prs40a}{The only way for true humans, and democracy, to be safe is to cleanse the mutants from the globe. We humans will take back that which is rightfully ours.}
{237}{prs40b}{The Project will cleanse all the mutants from our fair land - and the rest of the globe. Once again, America will be the world's policeman.}
{240}{prs41}{We found a research facility in operational shape about 70 years ago. A former military base that had been used to research a special virus.}
{242}{prs42}{Yes, the F.E.V. virus. It was originally developed to turn soldiers into super-warriors but it failed. The warriors were tough and strong, but far too stupid. However, our brilliant Chemical Corps altered it.}
{244}{prs43}{To turn it into a staggeringly effective killer. Any humanoid that isn't inoculated against its effects before its release, will die. That is the Project.}
{246}{prs43a}{No, no. That's humanity's last, best, hope. That's what we've been working towards all these years.}
{248}{prs44}{We've run short of certain critical chemicals. We can get them from the drug labs of New Reno. If the mutant-mobsters use our guns to kill each other, just saves us the trouble.}
[...]
{280}{prs57}{Very moving. But the radical changes your villagers and other mutants show is a far cry from the gradual changes of natural evolution. }
{281}{player}{Maybe we're changing into a better version of the human race. Did you ever think of that?}
{282}{prs58}{Very possible, indeed. In which case, our mission is even more vital to the survival of the human race. }
{291}{prs61}{So what? If your kind is allowed to flourish it'll mean the end of the human race as we know it. We can't allow radioactive freaks to squeeze humans into extinction.}
{293}{prs62}{Not at all. Look to the future. Sure muties and men could get along for a while, but before you know it, the numeric pressure of your kind would tell. No, a line must be drawn in the sand - the buck stops here.}
{298}{prs64}{I assure you, I'm quite sane, as is everyone on the Project. We're dedicated to the salvation of the human race. You can call single-minded dedication to a cause madness, I suppose, but if so, it's divine madness.}
{302}{prs65}{I don't think this tired old planet's big enough for two top dogs. If it's us or you. Well, I'm going to choose us.}
{304}{prs66}{As the embodiment of the executive branch, I bear the burden of ensuring the survival and prosperity of the United States and of humanity itself. A heavy burden and yet if it means the return of the earth to our children and to their children, I bear it gladly.}

So they fight the good fight by wanting non-mutated humanity to remain as the dominant species and remove the planet of mutated filth that is however more adapted to the wasteland and thus relatively superior (and dangerous) to pure humans? Incredibly shallow.

And on sterility:

{149}{Mast17}{But it cannot be. This would mean that all my work has been for
 nothing. Everything that I have tried to . . . a failure!  It can't be.
 Be. Be. Be.}

{153}{Mast19}{I . . . don't think that I can continue. Continue? To have done the
 things I have done in the name of progress and healing. It was
 madness. I can see that now. Madness. Madness? There is no hope.
 Leave now, leave while you still have hope . . .}

His plan is deeply flawed by the fact that his species will eventually wither away. The fact that you can make this come up is nothing short of awesome, but we all know that already. The matter at hand is, is the Enclave's plan as inherently flawed as the Master's?

Guess what. It isn't.

 

[1eyedking]

@Gragt:

That's a bit different from bureaucracy. Even early civilisations like Ancient China had bureaucracy but it emerged because the task of administering such a huge territory required it. Vaults, the way they are created, do not really require excessive bureaucracy especially the kind shown in Fallout 2.

Of course. Behavior in vaults was highly adhocratic, with no organizational structure whatsoever and no need for maintenance and management. They all looked and acted the same because of the carefree social environment they lived in and power division such as Vault Overseers, Lieutenants, and other enforcers were non-existant, and not because of the stressful procedures to keep everything tight and under control because otherwise the whole Vault infrastructure would collapse and lose it's meaning.

Let's cite some sources:

{119}{Over_10}{We've debated this before. You ought to know now, after being out
 there! You think the rest of us could survive that?
 Besides, I'd be out of a job! I'm management! It's not like I know how to
 do anything useful!}
{161}{Over_33}{You saved the Vault. You should be proud. But now, we need your
 report. We'll get it from you in the library. Please go there now.}
{239}{Over_76}{Keep looking for a replacement chip. It's the only way we can
 maintain our independence and the security that comes with our seclusion.}

What's that, management? Security? Reports?

How some people are able to miss the point so completely is beyond me.

I do not really see the BoS as complex, it's actually quite a simple hierarchy, and it's all they need for their purposes.

Yes, Apprentices, Scholars, Knights, Paladins, Elders; also, restricted access to Power Armor; countless databases, archives, and holodisks; procedural missions (the Glow, the Mutant threat, skirmishes against the Vipers); regulated equipment distribution; training routines; council meetings; lots of management (equipment, technology, research, base maintenance). Sounds like they were a really disorganized bunch, and had no need for rules and standardized processes. No sir, none of that.

Goddamit son, do you even know what bureaucracy means?

The Dragon and Lo Pan have quite an impact on the town and are pretty much central to the area.

Some guys outside get sad if one or the other gets killed in the Kung-Fu sidequest. Big deal. And by central I guess you mean the fight takes place on the center of the map, right?

But they are still present and have quite a large compound.

Hubologists have a big area. So?

[Mobsters] don't really fit the setting.

Yes, let us forget that filthy Gizmo from Fallout 1. No sir, he was no mobster. You put your mouse on him and the tooltip displayed "Gizmo", so that must've meant he didn't run any illegal operations at all, since otherwise we would have gotten "Gangster" or "Crime Lord" or something like that.

Many NPC will mention the fact that your character is a tribal, and you can also play with this yourself. There are also slavers in The Den or NCR, dealing in tribals. You can even recruit one in Klamath and that might also get some mentions from some NPC.

A couple of funny quotes here and there, some enslavement, and pretty much nothing else. It's clear their primitive ways played an important role in the whole of the game

Ever read Jules Verne? There was a lot of anticipation in his work, and they often appear deliciously dated, but he still wrote of travels in space, air and water in ways that aren't completely silly considering our current technologies. Even someone like Leibnitz wrote many documents that predated the creation of the computer by a few centuries but were close to the actual concepts some scientists worked on later. It's something of the human nature to anticipate. And then you have great minds like Cleveland Mark Blakemore who can predict future events with terrific accuracy.

I won't bother with this. Travelling through air and water doesn't sound as crazy as LCD screens and 80000 megaton explosions. Ever read those dumb magazines that said that by the 21st century we would be living on Mars and the Earth would be a smoldering hole of pollution with people wearing gas-masks all the time?

The people who forgot about basic agricultural concepts like crop rotation and worshipped a local divinity called Dharma?

Yes, the very same people that built wells, clay houses, and could produce poison antidotes. Clearly, stuff like what you've mentioned wasn't for color.

 

[Vault Dweller]

OK, enough of this moronic pseudo-intellectual crap, it's time to kick some monoclian ass.

Hands off my monocle. I've just had it polished.

As to your question, let me simplify things for you.

The Master: I think the mutants are the future. They are strong, don't care about the radiation and PA hazards, and the Unity thing will eliminate the differences, which were the cause of the war and the whole fallout thing.

It's logical. He's talking about upgrading and eliminating the weakness of the race. No more, he says, people shall waste time arguing about stupid shit on the internet. From now we'll always agree on what a fucking RPG is and isn't and will focus our efforts on something constructive and awesome.

The pure people will take the communion, the rest will live under the Unity's watchful eye but won't breed.

The Enclave: Let's just kill everyone, shall we? Even though the world is empty and needs rebuilding and more slaves than the crowd that built the fucking Pyramids - and them mutants look like a sturdy type - I'd rather kill them all and live the rest of my days on this here oil platform. Love the sea air! Love it.

That's the biggest flaw and the difference. The master's plan makes sense. It's easy to see how a man would come up with it and see his points. The Enclave's plan is illogical and doesn't make any fucking sense.

 

[denizsi]

Reading all the nonsensical love and appreciation for Fallout 2, I'm really, seriously, literally surprised and dumbfucked at how, many of the same people don't seem to like Fallout 3. If you put it in a similarly certain perspective, I'm sure everything in Fallout 3 will make just as much sense, if not more.

Come to think of it, I think there will be lots of F3 loveboys here in 5 years of time.

 

[1eyedking]

@Sander:

No, he said he didn't want to work on a Fallout 2 at that point in time, and he said that Planescape: Torment had a pretty linear story and put you in the place of a certain character but was otherwise completely awesome. Which it did.

But when we were done with Fallout, I was kind of tired of that genre. I didn't want to do Fallout 2.

[...]

I liked Planescape: Torment a lot, but the biggest complaint I gave Chris Avellone, even before it shipped, was I really hate the fact that you're giving me just one person, and I can't play anything else.

Someone just asked me recently why I don't like what they call the "Eastern-style" of RPG, like Final Fantasy . And I think that was one of my biggest complaints. I feel too constrained. To be given a character and play it the way the designers expected me to play through.

Sounds clear enough to me, son.

There's also a significant difference between a game designer commenting on stuff he himself did (and when he's critical of it you can be extremely sure he means it), and a game designer commenting on the work of another game designer.
Effectively, Tim Cain didn't say much about Fallout 3 other than "it's a cool game".

That's a good statement, but what I was trying to point was that developers are humans and can lie or hide facts during their interviews.

That still doesn't mean that Kung Fu Battles (or basically all of San Francisco. Fuck San Francisco) fit the setting. And no, they don't just serve a minor role in San Francisco. They are the focal point of the main area.
And the other shit in San Francisco is even worse. Hubologists and a Space Shuttle? Are you kidding me?

And the rusty freighter. Meh. I don't see them completely out of place because they're world stuff that would have been there, and it's not like the Space Shuttle is functional and not a nod at Hubbard's philosophy.

And no, actually, they didn't manage to provide a sound economical system in which New Reno would have been able to rise up and prosper in an environment with very limited travelling, no explanation for where they get their food or resources, or how slinging drugs makes you the richest man alive in a world where people have trouble getting food.

New Reno isn't prosperous. I don't know where did you get that crazy idea, it's just a backwater city full of prostitution, delinquency and vice. And as far as I know there are a lot of caravans moving around the wastes, and it's not like the Mordinos wouldn't trade their drugs with other non-mentioned locales and farms. I mean, wouldn't you sometimes find farms when stopping in the middle of nowhere in the world map? It's not like the big green circle locations are the only places with people, you know.

And if by richest man alive means living in a pre-war crumbling casino with a bunch of junkie guards as bodyguards and lots of cheap hookers, then yes, my friend, New Reno kingpins were very rich (definitely beats being a Modoc farmer, though).

Yes, some of this can be assumed to be done behind the scenes. Most of it, however, simply doesn't fit. And although New Reno was a lot of fun, it fit Fallout neither stylistically, thematically or logically.

This can be debunked by pointing you to Gizmo in Fallout 1, the 80 years deal, and what I and others have said before.