For those who played Fallout 2 before playing Fallout

[Vault Dweller]

I hope AoD won't have that kind of crap so we wouldn't have you going on a rampage on every man-known forum spouting how stupid your gamers are because they couldn't figure out the 'depth' your game actually had.

Did I do it here? Did I insult anyone who said that Fallout 2 is a better game or anyone who missed the dynamite option?

 

[FeelTheRads]

Interesting that not even stats check are good. Fuck that RPG shit, eh?
You know, this is not a "push the buttons in the correct order you have to deduce from an ancient poem" RPG puzzle. It has nothing to do with the player's intelligence or attention. To find that is dumb luck at the best and a result of pixel-hunting at the worst. Or the other way. Whatev...

 

[nomask7]

Quentin Tarantino a second-rate writer & director

Tarantino is passable dialogue-driven movie entertainment, not quite good enough to be second-rate.

 

[bhlaab]

I hope AoD won't have that kind of crap so we wouldn't have you going on a rampage on every man-known forum spouting how stupid your gamers are because they couldn't figure out the 'depth' your game actually had.

Did I do it here? Did I insult anyone who said that Fallout 2 is a better game or anyone who missed the dynamite option?

Yeah, the part where you implied that I was too stupid to solve rpg puzzles without a giant yellow arrow.

 

[Jim Cojones]

Do you need perception to figure out that you can blow up the entrance?

After you find explosives in the game for the first time and check how they work you see it doesn't have any impact on walls. So why should you expect it will destroy the entrance to the cave?

 

[Jasede]

The questions are what race and why.

Fallout 1 - a survivor of the nuclear war falls into a vat of military virus that transforms him, making him stronger and smarter, and granting him psionic abilities. The Master thinks that the NEW race is the future, since they are better suited to the PA life. The Unity thing will "finally eliminate the differences and the human fallacies that ultimately brought about the nuclear war."

Fallout 2 - the President wants to eradicate all mutants, and since most life is mutated, it means that he wants to destroy all life on the planet. You'd think that a strong faction that managed to survive the post-apocalypse would have better things to do than trying to exterminate what's left of life in the fucking wasteland. Like, seriously. It doesn't make sense. I can see him thinking that the pure humans are the new master race and all mutants, even the ones that look normal, are sub-humans and slaves, and the Enclave would need a lot of slaves to start rebuilding, but that's not the case, which is why their plan is nothing but "we want to destroy all life because we are teh evil!"

Which is better and why? Discus!!

Yep. Quests like "give the ghost its locket", "deliver a meal to Smitty", or "find a book I lost somewhere" always surprise me with the depth of their design.

This is just some small stuff in the beggining of the game. There are plenty of good quests (The Gecko nuclear power plant, Ghost Farm, the murder investigation in New Reno, all the business with the Raiders, the politics in places like Redding or Vault 15...)

 

[Mackerel]

I had fun with both. Fallout 1 for being a great game and Fallout 2 because I do enjoy a good parody.

 

[FeelTheRads]

Looking at the avatars of bhlaab and VD gives me the feeling they'd get it on any time now.
Sad to see them argue instead.

 

[Vault Dweller]

Do you need perception to figure out that you can blow up the entrance?

Typical VD.

Yeah, why oh why do people think you're just a flip-floping asshole.

Huh? Flip-flopping asshole? I merely asked a question.

No, you don't need perception to figure out that you can blow up a cave entrance (maybe intelligence), but you'd need perception to notice the wall is weak, which is what the game says.

Let me ask you again. You have a stick of dynamite. You have a cave with unfriendly creatures inside. Is it logical to assume that the entrance could be sealed and look for a proper spot or should it require high perception? Please explain your answer.

Otherwise, you should just be able to blow every cave entrance, if you're not gonna make it dependent on stats.

Are there more caves in Fallout 1? The only one I can think of is the deathclaw cave, but I'm not sure about the entrance, and the goal is to investigate, I think.

 

[bhlaab]

Let me ask you again. You have a stick of dynamite. You have a cave with unfriendly creatures inside. Is it logical to assume that the entrance could be sealed and look for a proper spot or should it require high perception? Please explain your answer.

No it's not logical to assume that, because it's not a reaction games train us to have.

You were told to go kill the radscorpions, it's logical to assume that you're being forced to go kill the radscorpions. Anything else needs proper introduction so you know you actually have a choice.

 

[TwinkieGorilla]

Huh? Flip-flopping asshole?

i think he's calling you a hippie.

 

[The Ninth Circle]

Let me ask you again. You have a stick of dynamite. You have a cave with unfriendly creatures inside. Is it logical to assume that the entrance could be sealed and look for a proper spot or should it require high perception? Please explain your answer.

No it's not logical to assume that, because it's not a reaction games train us to have.

Why blame Fallout for the lack of self-driven thinking needed in other games?

 

[Jasede]

I honestly think that telling the player about all the choices he has readily decreases their worth. I never knew about this dynamite thing, since I never noticed - now that I know it exists, I think more highly of Fallout.

Let me put it this way: isn't it nice if a game has resolutions to things that it didn't point out, that you didn't expect, that reward exploration, patience or just good perception?

 

[The Ninth Circle]

I honestly think that telling the player about all the choices he has readily decreases their worth. I never knew about this dynamite thing, since I never noticed - now that I know it exists, I think more highly of Fallout.

Let me put it this way: isn't it nice if a game has resolutions to things that it didn't point out, that you didn't expect, that reward exploration, patience or just good perception?

I gained quite a bit of respect from Morrowind upon learning that you can still beat the main quest if you were to kill Vivec (which you would want to do almost immediately..). The quest line connected to that alternate path is actually quite good and rewarding.

 

[Vault Dweller]

I hope AoD won't have that kind of crap so we wouldn't have you going on a rampage on every man-known forum spouting how stupid your gamers are because they couldn't figure out the 'depth' your game actually had.

Did I do it here? Did I insult anyone who said that Fallout 2 is a better game or anyone who missed the dynamite option?

Yeah, the part where you implied that I was too stupid to solve rpg puzzles without a giant yellow arrow.

I didn't imply that.

Bhlaab: No, it's because it doesn't clearly point out the possibility of a solution.
VD: It does. Unless you are upset that there is no big yellow arrow pointing to the weak point.

"unless" clearly indicates that I don't think that this is your point.

 

[inwoker]

I always thought one of the greatest features of both Fallouts were the choices you hadn't realised you can do in it in first playthrough.

 

[FeelTheRads]

Huh? Flip-flopping asshole?

Yes, I said it should have a perception check to notice the weak wall and you ask if perception is needed to blow the entrance. Not quite the same thing.

Is it logical to assume that the entrance could be sealed and look for a proper spot or should it require high perception?

Not that logical since, as it was said before, the dynamite can't be used again in a similar manner. Although, admittedly, being at the beginning of the game the players don't have much time to experiment with the dynamite so it wouldn't be such a leap of logic to try to blow up the cave entrance.
However, the problem is there is just one spot there. And, again I don't remember exactly, does it at least works if you don't notice that spot? Say you just think about putting dynamite without noticing the weak wall. Will it work?

Let me put it this way: isn't it nice if a game has resolutions to things that it didn't point out, that you didn't expect, that reward exploration, patience or just good perception?

Sure, if it makes sense and it's consistent with the mechanics of the game. This one is not that perfect and I still think a stat check would've been the most elegant solution.

 

[Vault Dweller]

Let me ask you again. You have a stick of dynamite. You have a cave with unfriendly creatures inside. Is it logical to assume that the entrance could be sealed and look for a proper spot or should it require high perception? Please explain your answer.

No it's not logical to assume that, because it's not a reaction games train us to have.

I assume that you're young and missed the "golden age". I remember many "how the fuck did they expect me to figure it out!" moments in old RPG and adventure games where solutions were never obvious and rarely easy. I remember being stuck for weeks and having absolutely no clue on what to do. Anyone remembers a Sierra game where you had to rotate an item in the inventory to find another item, which wasn't visible before? No indication was given to the player, but after thinking about it for 2 days it became kinda obvious. Anyway...

You were told to go kill the radscorpions, it's logical to assume that you're being forced to go kill the radscorpions.

When you get a quest, the only thing you should assume is that someone asked you to do something. The rest should be decided on the spot, after the situation is evaluated.

I always thought one of the greatest features of both Fallouts were the choices you hadn't realised you can do in it in first playthrough.

Apparently not.

 

[FeelTheRads]

I assume that you're young and missed the "golden age". I remember many "how the fuck did they expect me to figure it out!" moments in old RPG and adventure games where solutions were never obvious and rarely easy.

That's more a characteristic of adventure games rather than RPGs, although it was rather often incorporated in RPGs too, that's true.
But, for example in adventure games the puzzles are most of the time essential to completing the game. So, if you want to complete the game you'll surely try everything. It's not the case here. It's an alternative solution to a side quest which could've been handled better, that's all I'm saying.

 

[bhlaab]

I honestly think that telling the player about all the choices he has readily decreases their worth. I never knew about this dynamite thing, since I never noticed - now that I know it exists, I think more highly of Fallout.

Let me put it this way: isn't it nice if a game has resolutions to things that it didn't point out, that you didn't expect, that reward exploration, patience or just good perception?

Hrm, maybe tell was the wrong word. Hint; suggest.

I'm not saying this is a terrible quest, of course it's better off the way it is than if was just fight all the scorpions. So that's where this whole thing started, I think Fallout 2 was a lot smarter about designing its quests and took into consideration how the player will come across the solutions.

Why blame Fallout for the lack of self-driven thinking needed in other games?

Because it's impossible to make cases for every self-driven thought. It's logical to say "I have dynamite, this should collapse the cave", but it's just as logical to say "There are a bunch of rocks on the ground, why don't I carry them over and block up the entrance with them?" The player can't expect the designer to think of everything, and the designer can't expect the player to think of everything. That's why they give you the message that the wall is weak in the first place, but I don't think that's enough because it seems like you have to be looking for the message (or stumble upon it by chance) in order to find it.

 

[bhlaab]

I assume that you're young and missed the "golden age". I remember many "how the fuck did they expect me to figure it out!" moments in old RPG and adventure games where solutions were never obvious and rarely easy. I remember being stuck for weeks and having absolutely no clue on what to do. Anyone remembers a Sierra game where you had to rotate an item in the inventory to find another item, which wasn't visible before? No indication was given to the player, but after thinking about it for 2 days it became kinda obvious. Anyway...

I haven't played many OLD-old RPGs (I guess Fallout is "regular-old" nowadays) but I certainly know the Sierra games, and the old text adventures I used to play on the Commodore 64. They weren't particularly fair, actually they seemed to revel in the fact that they were incredibly unfair. And that's why Lucasarts was better

 

[Vault Dweller]

Huh? Flip-flopping asshole?

Yes, I said it should have a perception check to notice the weak wall and you ask if perception is needed to blow the entrance. Not quite the same thing.

Exactly. You're very perceptive. Where is the flip-flopping then, of which so many people are apparently aware?

I blew up the entrance because I thought it should be doable (well, I thought that I was given the dynamite for a reason), not because I noticed the weak wall. Other people clicked on the wall. I don't mind stat checks, so let's not act so righteous - "Interesting that not even stats check are good. Fuck that RPG shit, eh?" - but I don't think that using a stick of dynamite should involve stats.

Not that logical since, as it was said before, the dynamite can't be used again in a similar manner.

In games objects often work in a certain way only once or twice. For example, in King's Quest you can catch a "hole in the wall" (yes, it was literally a hole) and use it on certain walls to see what's inside.

Although, admittedly, being at the beginning of the game the players don't have much time to experiment with the dynamite so it wouldn't be such a leap of logic to try to blow up the cave entrance.

Thank you.

However, the problem is there is just one spot there. And, again I don't remember exactly, does it at least works if you don't notice that spot? Say you just think about putting dynamite without noticing the weak wall. Will it work?

You need to use it on something. When you stand close to the entrance, it's very hard not to click on the right spot.

 

[Vault Dweller]

It's logical to say "I have dynamite, this should collapse the cave", but it's just as logical to say "There are a bunch of rocks on the ground, why don't I carry them over and block up the entrance with them?"

Of course. And then you try to block the entrance with rocks and see that it's not possible. Then you try the dynamite, see that it actually works and rejoice.

When I got to Vault 15 and was told that I can't get any further because of the cave-in, my first thought was "Dynamite!". I tried it 4-5 times before I realized that it aint happening.

 

[Helton]

If you hover over the right pixel on the wall in Mom's restaurant you notice a mouse hole and can place cheese there and the mouse will come out and deliver the meal to Smitty for you. I always thout this was a stroke of brilliance. A sterling example of all that quest design can be. You guys must have missed it.

 

[bhlaab]

The quest in Fallout 1 that really pissed me off was the Urn quest in Junktown.

Some police guy tells me to get rid of all of the gangsters. So I go to the bar, they start a fight with the waittress, and I kill them all. The game has absoloutely no response for that. The policeman just says "Why ain't you dealt with the gang yet!"
Fuck you.

Then I look at a walkthrough and see that I have to talk to the gangsters after they leave the bar, have them hire me to steal an urn, use it as evidence, and then kill them.
I reiterate, fuck you.