Gamepad vs Mouse & Keyboard Discussion

[GrainWetski]

All this butthurt is glorious :D

It is my belief PC games should stay PC games, yet that if multiplatformization (this is now a word) has to happen then the design need not be butchered, or if it really has to then make the design PC-first and then commit to minor tailoring for the console version.

Everyone is focusing on New Vegas when I said it was a lesser example. Morrowind is the finest example of how it's done: make the game PC-first, later port to console. Make very few changes. All they really did was split the game's seperate windows (which render all at once) into four seperate tabs/windows that render separately. That's it. Otherwise all important functionality remains; the console version had no impact on the PC version, and the console version itself was not dumbed down. That is how it is done best case scenario. Well, no, best case scenario is the UI being exactly the same, but not many devs have the balls to retain cursor control and small font on consoles (some, however, do).

Most people played Doom and others of the time with the keyboard. It was the (very low) standard. I remember. Pads are significantly better than keyboard aiming, therefore people blow how much pads affect FPS design way out of proportion, if the GOAT FPS (and others) could be played with such primitive input. That was my point is all and it will forever stand. What people fail to see is devs just universally sold out, fact. Blaming consoles misses the point. PC and console gaming used to be great. Now both are bad in the mainstream sense. It doesn't help that most gamers (PC or console) are salivating retards, graphics whores and casuals which is partly what inspired said selling out.

The FPS genre is completely and utterly dead because of your precious gamepads.

 

[Citizen]

All input devices are designed for specific games (or to be fair it's the games that are developed with specific input devices in mind).

FPS and RTS are the games that require precise cursor positioning, high APM and a lot of mapped keys - they are best played on mouse and keyboard, people who play FPS (especially fast paced competitive ones) on gamepads are degenerates

Fighting games, platformers and third-person action games are best enjoyed on a gamepad - they don't require precise cursor positioning, and it's just more comfortable to make fast button inputs on an ergonomic gamepad where all the buttons are already under your fingers than wave your hands around a keyboard

Racing/Flight/Spaceship sims are obviously best enjoyed with a wheel or a stick controller

 

[abija]

it's just more comfortable to make fast button inputs on an ergonomic gamepad where all the buttons are already under your fingers than wave your hands around a keyboard

?????????????????

 

[moraes]

The mouse is the ultimate pointer device: it has precision, ergonomics and low cost. There is just one problem with it: sometimes you want to lay on your couch like a stoned degenerate and play a game, but the mouse needs a hard surface to work its magic.

I tried to play Rimworld from my couch on my overpriced Steam Controller and the mouse precision just isn't there. Also, text was so tiny in my TV that I had to stretch my neck to read anything.

Whoever solves the mouse-on-your-couch problem should get a million dollar prize.

 

[DDZ]

Seriously though, very precise, but not quite as fast as a regular mouse. So great for most shit but FPS games.

 

[Gerrard]

Console versions of FPSes literally have lower difficulty than PC versions.

 

[DJOGamer PT]

it's just more comfortable to make fast button inputs on an ergonomic gamepad where all the buttons are already under your fingers than wave your hands around a keyboard

?????????????????

The genres he mentioned rely much more on button inputs than in camera precision (in fact most games in those genres don't have player controlled cameras at alll), the gamepad does indeed excel in there over kb+m

 

[Keyboard Vomit]

There is just one problem with it: sometimes you want to lay on your couch like a stoned degenerate and play a game, but the mouse needs a hard surface to work its magic.

There are two problems with it, you only have one mouse while controllers have two thumbsticks. So you only have smooth movement with the mouse while the keyboard takes very binary input without any degrees to it. In most games that doesn't matter but in a few it does.

 

[Nifft Batuff]

One of my most shocking experience in gaming was when I played for the first time a FPS with a gamepad. On a PS2. In 2017. I still have PTSD.

 

[abija]

The genres he mentioned rely much more button inputs than in camera precision (in fact most games in those genres don't have player controlled cameras at alll), the gamepad does indeed excel in there over kb+m

How exactly are more buttons on gamepad under your fingertips than on keyboard?

 

[DJOGamer PT]

The genres he mentioned rely much more button inputs than in camera precision (in fact most games in those genres don't have player controlled cameras at alll), the gamepad does indeed excel in there over kb+m

How exactly are more buttons on gamepad under your fingertips than on keyboard?

There's a small typo in my post, I meant to say "rely much more on button inputs"
Those game don't make use of many of buttons, but still require you to make fast inputs and alot of times input combinations of buttons
And like Citizen it's far more comfortable and pratical to make those inputs on an ergonomic gamepad

But if after all this you still have your doubts than just install any decent fighting game and compare playing it with a gamepad and with a keyboard
I mean there is a reason why no one uses a fucking keyboard on a competitive setting

 

[Ash]

But if after all this you still have your doubts than just install any decent fighting game and compare playing it with a gamepad and with a keyboard
I mean there is a reason why no one uses a fucking keyboard on a competitive setting

Keyboards are garbage for any kind of gameplay that doesn't utilize typing (as in words, like password input or text adventures) or utilization of many hotkeys. Mouse is god tier for aim but unfortunately is accompanied by typewriter input which is not often ideal. Big difference to buttons with decent spacing, smoothed roundness, pressure sensitivity, color coding (for whoever actually needs that, whatever), 360 degree analog control for movement, lightweight, portable and ergonomic design (e.g grip). Vibration feedback is also often used in worthwhile ways, sometimes even serving a unique role in game mechanics. Custom gaming keyboards go some way to rectifying the problems, but can't cover everything partly because PC games have to be designed for stock keyboards, and partly because that's the nature of the beast.

Whoever solves the mouse-on-your-couch problem should get a million dollar prize.

Playing modded Morrowind right now on my couch/TV setup. Hard couch, sturdy mouse pad, keyboard on lap, pillow under the keyboard arm for appropriate resting state. Do I get to be rich now?

One of my most shocking experience in gaming was when I played for the first time a FPS with a gamepad. On a PS2. In 2017. I still have PTSD.

Yeah don't do that. the PS2 pad is certainly quite rough, but there has been 20 years of industry refinement since then, as well as quite the lack of progress really; At least a couple new buttons are needed, even if only to serve as optional hotkeys much like you get from a keyboard. But nope, 20 years since the PS2 days and no new gameplay-relevant buttons. Dashboard buttons, social media share buttons, motion controls and other gimmicks, we can do that though.

Console versions of FPSes literally have lower difficulty than PC versions.

Fake news, as usual. You could maybe dig up an example or two yet there are also many instances where things are actually harder. I've played many FPS' numerous times over, on numerous different platforms. Never seen anything that qualifies what you claim.

 

[502]

I'm guessing mouse plus an analog device like this instead of (or in addition to) keyboard would be the best choice. Haven't seen one suited for sinister lefties though.

 

[Ash]

I don't think it is something that can be solved with one particular (handheld) design. the above has terrible keys/buttons for instance (as in cramped, binary input, keyboard-like design), and you need a free arm to benefit most from mouse-like control (as opposed to a finger or thumb). It looks like an abomination but I could be thinking about it with the incorrect intended use. A true monocled gamer uses both based on the game: you either get superior aim, superior text-based gameplay and hotkeys, or you get superior analog input (namely for movement), superior ergonomics, vibration feedback and whatever else. Both can do opposing types of gameplay reasonably enough (e.g gamepads can do text-based gameplay with virtual keyboards), but it is best to be adaptive. Nonetheless no singleplayer game that I've ever played is so hardcore that you absolutely have to use one or the other. Except maybe that one NDS Castlevania with the stylus rune drawing gimmick. I couldn't beat the late stage bosses even with a mouse (I had no stylus).

The FPS genre is completely and utterly dead because of your precious gamepads.

Much stupid delusion. Your beloved developers sold you (and me) out hard. It's cute that you blame an inanimate piece of plastic, especially when considering the FPS' glorious roots on the keyboard. classic FPS PC devs ruined gaming in general with their Gears of Wars, Halos, Bioshocks etc.

 

[abija]

But if after all this you still have your doubts than just install any decent fighting game and compare playing it with a gamepad and with a keyboard
I mean there is a reason why no one uses a fucking keyboard on a competitive setting

The reason is it's a pain in the ass to configure and you might have the pleasant surprise of not being allowed at some tournament. Keyboard is better than gamepad in most fighting games.

 

[CrunchyHemorrhoids]

The mouse is the ultimate pointer device: it has precision, ergonomics and low cost. There is just one problem with it: sometimes you want to lay on your couch like a stoned degenerate and play a game, but the mouse needs a hard surface to work its magic.

I tried to play Rimworld from my couch on my overpriced Steam Controller and the mouse precision just isn't there. Also, text was so tiny in my TV that I had to stretch my neck to read anything.

Whoever solves the mouse-on-your-couch problem should get a million dollar prize.

Where do I collect?

 

[Ol' Willy]

I tried to play Rimworld from my couch on my overpriced Steam Controller and the mouse precision just isn't there. Also, text was so tiny in my TV that I had to stretch my neck to read anything.

Whoever solves the mouse-on-your-couch problem should get a million dollar prize.

I like to play lying down on a bed with laptop on my belly and mouse nearby. No problems at all. Was replaying both TB and RT games that way.

Also, literally now I scroll with the mouse on my chest. Works fine

 

[Ol' Willy]

Most people played Doom and others of the time with the keyboard. It was the (very low) standard. I remember.

Vanilla Doom has autoaim and no vertical movement. Bad example.

It's pretty rich to hear people whining about the nu-Fallout UI when the original Fallout UI was absolutely abysmal by comparison. Bethesda's modern UI design sucks and is clearly gamepad-oriented, but at least I could scroll through more than 6 items at a time and didn't have to use the steal menu to swap gear with my companions like in FO1, which disallows me from viewing the stats or even the name of the items transferred, thus requiring me to reopen my own inventory and scroll all the way to the bottom just to check which holotape or whatever I need for some quest. If you think this compares favorably to the (admittedly awful) Pip-Boy menus as an examplar of good UI design principles, then I have a copy of Windows 8 to sell you

I'll take Fallout 2 UI over Shittesda one any time of the day

 

[Raskens]

The mouse is the ultimate pointer device: it has precision, ergonomics and low cost. There is just one problem with it: sometimes you want to lay on your couch like a stoned degenerate and play a game, but the mouse needs a hard surface to work its magic.

I tried to play Rimworld from my couch on my overpriced Steam Controller and the mouse precision just isn't there. Also, text was so tiny in my TV that I had to stretch my neck to read anything.

Whoever solves the mouse-on-your-couch problem should get a million dollar prize.

I play all PC games lying down on the side while my laptop and mouse is on my bedside table. I also used to play like Ol' Willy with the laptop on my stomach, and the mouse on the bedside table,

 

[Bad Sector]

I'm guessing mouse plus an analog device like this instead of (or in addition to) keyboard would be the best choice.

There is also the so-called Space Mouse by 3D Connexion which provides full 6dof analog input (can "sense" tilt, rotation and pull up/down) together with a bunch of optional additional controls (the version i linked at is the most advanced, but there is a "compact" version that only has the knob). It is used by some 3D artists for faster/easier navigation in 3D space (common use is with left hand on it and right hand on the regular mouse) though it does take some time to get used to it.

Price, proprietary API (on Windows at least) and availability by only a single company does hamper things a bit though.

 

[Curratum]

What sort of retard even started this thread in the first place?

Controllers are the absolute, consummate herald of decline, console peasantry and everything that is filthy and disgusting about gaming. There is no discussion to be had and no positives to using them.

 

[tritosine2k]

Ideal for couch is an "appendage" a vertical mouse made to not only compensate for gravity with servomotors, but provide VISCERAL sense of FFB.
Worth more than a million afaict.
https://www.researchgate.net/public...tic_actuators_for_high_fidelity_force_control ?

 

[DJOGamer PT]

But if after all this you still have your doubts than just install any decent fighting game and compare playing it with a gamepad and with a keyboard
I mean there is a reason why no one uses a fucking keyboard on a competitive setting

The reason is it's a pain in the ass to configure and you might have the pleasant surprise of not being allowed at some tournament. Keyboard is better than gamepad in most fighting games.

For brawler and fighters, keyboards aren't the ideal (unless they have very simple inputs, and even then...)
Because of the reasons Ash said above, doing fast and complicated inputs isn't what keyboards are made for (even something as simple as a full circle input with KB is ten times harder)

Oh and keyboards are allowed at tournaments, just no one that actually wants to win one is going to massively gimp himself like that
Here's a video of one guy playing SF4 at EVO with a keyboard - spoiler alert he lost, because of course he did

 

[tritosine2k]

Ideal for couch is an "appendage" a vertical mouse made to not only compensate for gravity with servomotors, but provide VISCERAL sense of FFB.
Worth more than a million afaict.
https://www.researchgate.net/public...tic_actuators_for_high_fidelity_force_control ?

related:

https://oceansyrup.com/octopus-arm-wrestling/

 

[Mexi]

People playing with keyboards are just mad that they got wrecked playing a fps on a console. Controllers>>>m&k. That Xbox 360 controller is a fine controller btw. Just feels so natural.