KickStarter Geneforge 1 - Mutagen - remake from Spiderweb Software

[V_K]

Hmm i guess they UI is still annoying?

It's worse. Much worse. I was playing the latest Avernum remake recently, and compared to Mutagen's its UI is a materpiece.

 

[Dayyālu]

Because I suffer from a peculiar sort of autism, I'm replaying the demo area-par-area with the original to check the differences (helps that the demo is kinda small).

The dock area has several changes from the shaper ghost/creation you see at the beginning (that's new, and your character wondering about ghosts reminded me that theoretically, if I remember right, Shapers had a very negative view of necromancy and were kind of skeptical about it wholesale, but it's been years and Vogel doesn't give a shit about his own canon) to the first rogue encounter being peaceful and the enforced canister door (you can't get out of the docks before getting it).

I was surprised that the first Fyora tutorial area combat can be wholesale skipped with a leadership check, option not present in the original Geneforge 1. Likewise, a tahd is placed in the quarantine room to CLEARLY signal you the stealth mechanics. I did not have similar "peaceful" checks later, maybe my leadership was too low despite pumping it. Who knows.

The first town dialogue tree are mostly unchanged, there are some cleaned up dialogues but the details are essentially the same, the only somewhat big change I got in the entirety of it was that two old ledgers were changed to explain the new concept of "INUTILE" servile, apparently serviles that are genetically predisposed to be useless/brigands and got nuked. I don't remember this concept from the originals, but again, mind fog and I don't know what role it will have. It's the biggest change in dialogue trees. Some leadership and mechanic checks had their values changed (the sidequest for a chest in the village is now easier).

The new creation system looks nice and expanded, and I particularly like the problems with creation control (I'll need to check if it makes gameplay a chore in certain situations, tho). Extra abilities (like Overload, trading HP damage for attacking power) make the combat already more involved and it's nice to see that even trash combat like Fyora and Tahds now have quire a bit of variety, with enemy Fyoras that can activate overcharge too and Tahds that can leap and stun opponents. Even if the enemy setup is mostly unchanged, it makes the combat significatly different even if a tad slower. Maybe I fucked up with the difficulty settings, but GF1's combat is crazy fast in comparison.

There are several "underground" areas not present in the original, got one in the starting village and one in bandit woods, good way to add extra content without changing too much the map structure.

The graphics are functional and the overlay map looks nice. Compared to the shit-tier eye cancer that was Queen's Wish, a definite improvement.

Having to play the same areas back-to-back kinda slowed down my progression, I'm just at the shaper school now. One clear difference is levelling up, you are far slower in Mutagen and you aren't even given starting points, only a single level up at the end of the first tutorial area. My original GF1 character is already stronger.

However, the new depth to the creation of Creations, the graphics being functional and the writing unchanged make me positive for the moment. The UI is still amateurish, but my brain knew by rote the old Geneforge commands and it seems they are unchanged.

Some of the graphic choices are.... peculiar

But the Serviles were always intended to have a snout and the tahds are now less monkey and more Cheetahmen.

I'd say that compared to the mediocrity unbound that was Avadon (kill rats bro, awesome bro) and to the mess that was Queen's Wish, this appears to be good.

 

[Dayyālu]

Kk, finished the demo.

Bar what I wrote, cleaning up the bandit woods I found that a small shack that wasn't there in the original rewards stealth play by giving you the bandit's loot and letting them live, the Shaper school and Watchill are almost identical to the original even in loot (a rogue creation drops the same silver ring in the exact same location!).

I'll need to experiment more with the creations, but the bigger differences aren't in writing or mapping (they're almost 1:1 indentical and the changes are incredibly minor, the biggest one are the new "Inutile servile" book, if someone else found different stuff I'll be happy to be corrected). The new creation system looks like where most of the effort went, and the longer I look at it the better it looks.

Everyone was hoping here for Vogel not to fix what wasn't broken, and he seems to have delivered. Maybe he was too lazy for significant redesigns/rewriting, and that's a good thing.

Almost worth my money, if I wanted to finance Vogel. Hard choice.

Volatile thads damage things when hit, explode on death. Probably not worth the price.

I must not have been the only one to approach some harder content in early-midgame areas with the "expendable wave of tahds" tactic, so I guess the kamikaze version appeal to such a strategy, by thinning the enemy herd with expendable creations. Just now made easier, and the kamitahds are easier to reach for a Shaper and are prebuilt for wave tactics.

 

[Rafidur]

Spending your essence on more meat, or a leapy thad or two to go for their backline, seemed like a much more worthwhile investment to me.

Of note was thad riposte as an utter waste of points: +2 essence for a 20% chance to do 4 damage when hit in melee. For comparison the cryora aura is like 6 damage at start of turn, guaranteed.

 

[baud]

he's streaming the game at https://store.steampowered.com/app/1424710/Geneforge_1__Mutagen/

 

[Flying Dutchman]

I haven't tried any of Spiderweb's games - is there one you all would recommend starting with? (Besides this one.)

 

[Keyboard Vomit]

I haven't tried any of Spiderweb's games - is there one you all would recommend starting with? (Besides this one.)

Exile - Escape From The Pit. It's free!

http://www.spiderwebsoftware.com/exile/winexile.html

 

[Correct_Carlo]

Vogel is playing Geneforge live on its steam page right now and he answered my question! I asked how viable single, agent, torment runs will be in the new Geneforge. He said they will be much harder because he rebalanced the game around his stronger, more complex, creations with various abilities. However, you'll be able to do them if you use Stealth, Leadership, and mechanics.

 

[Keyboard Vomit]

Kk, finished the demo.

How does the remake compare with the Graphics Enhancement mod?
https://www.moddb.com/mods/geneforge-1-graphics-enhancement

 

[Dayyālu]

How does the remake compare with the Graphics Enhancement mod?
https://www.moddb.com/mods/geneforge-1-graphics-enhancement

Tbh, not too much difference. Tilesets and overland map are prettier, significantly so. Recycled assets for units/characters are rampant (you'll recognize some of the sprites from 2008's Geneforge 5 without problem) bar some outright new designs (Tahds) but I guess the big sell of the new remake aren't the graphics but the new creation system and the slightly expanded variety for quest solutions. At least, that's the take I got from the demo.

I'm not entirely sure it's worth it full price if you already know GF1 by rote, but again, who knows.

he's streaming the game at https://store.steampowered.com/app/1424710/Geneforge_1__Mutagen/

As much as I can shittalk the guy, his reading of the dialogue is indeed amusing.

I haven't tried any of Spiderweb's games - is there one you all would recommend starting with? (Besides this one.)

Depends. His recent output is mostly mediocre, I'd honestly say to wait for the remake. GF is his best product.

 

[Keyboard Vomit]

Tbh, not too much difference. Tilesets and overland map are prettier, significantly so. Recycled assets for units/characters are rampant (you'll recognize some of the sprites from 2008's Geneforge 5 without problem) bar some outright new designs (Tahds) but I guess the big sell of the new remake aren't the graphics but the new creation system and the slightly expanded variety for quest solutions. At least, that's the take I got from the demo.

So it's just G1 but slightly expanded? Gotcha. Are the old slides in the intro still in?

 

[Terra]

I haven't tried any of Spiderweb's games - is there one you all would recommend starting with? (Besides this one.)

I'd say Geneforge 1+2 are Jeff's best games, no reason not to start there.

 

[Dayyālu]

So it's just G1 but slightly expanded? Gotcha. Are the old slides in the intro still in?

Yes, but the new intro is.... badly implemented. Instead of a clean image and text, it's a crawling text that goes on for forever in a small window. Not the best choice.

 

[almondblight]

I haven't tried any of Spiderweb's games - is there one you all would recommend starting with? (Besides this one.)

Exile - Escape From The Pit. It's free!

http://www.spiderwebsoftware.com/exile/winexile.html

I'd recommend people try Exile II or Exile III instead, they felt like a huge step up. The first Exile is very bare bones - you don't even get any quests until the third town or so if I remember right.

Exile II and III are classics, though, and have some really cool things happening design-wise. It's surprising that so few Codexers seem to have played them. Like you said, the whole Exile series is free now.

 

[Rafidur]

Exile III is probably his best game, though I'd still recommend II because it gives you a lot of lore background, and makes you appreciate some parts of III more.

 

[Agesilaus]

I haven't tried any of Spiderweb's games - is there one you all would recommend starting with? (Besides this one.)

All of the Geneforges are great, although 3 is probably the weakest.

I would recommend Nethergate. If you want one of his newer updated things instead, then go with Avernum: Escape from the Pit.

 

[felipepepe]

As much criticism as we have about Vogel, says a lot that people are recommending multiple games as "his best work".

I'm a big Geneforge 1 fan, think it's not only his best work but also a very exotic and interesting world to explore.

 

[Dayyālu]

As much criticism as we have about Vogel, says a lot that people are recommending multiple games as "his best work".

One should always remember that our criticism of Vogel come from:

- Being utterly suboptimal in his remaking priorities and giving insane explanations of why he does so;
- You'd be hard pressed in finding someone recommending Avadon or Queen's Wish, meaning it has been years since he threw out something worthwhile;
- He's kind of an ass in his "55+ years industry veteran proved several times wrong but 60+ years industry veteran I know better";

From the stream, a thing I honestly noticed-but-didnt-notice-for-real is that he flat out took out experience for creations. They're now fully expendable and their level is fixed, depending on Shaper skills and enhancements. That's new, even if some people liked the old bad system of keeping up your creations and slowly upgrading them (like myself, GF was always a larper game).

Also, the Spawners now attack, didn't notice that because fuck I killed the one in the original so fast I didn't even check.

Also, apparently still salty about Blades of Avernum - "didn't sold well so we'll never remake it" - but we all know it's because it would make his own remakes redundant

It's surprising that so few Codexers seem to have played them. Like you said, the whole Exile series is free now.

Amusingly enough, the Exiles/Avernum offer different setups compared to Geneforge (one could argue that Nethergate is mechanically similar, but Nethergate is probably his most experimental game). I'd argue that Exile/Avernum cater more to the combatfag player and GF to the storyfag.

 

[V_K]

I'd argue that Exile/Avernum cater more to the combatfag player and GF to the storyfag.

Yes and no.
Genefore is just a lot more open-ended than Exile/Avernum. You can play it as a storyfag game, sure, but you also can ignore most of the story and just go exploring and fighting stuff (or solving mine puzzles) - and still get to an ending. In that sense, Avernum has more mandatory story sequences than GF as well.

 

[Hobo Elf]

One should always remember that our criticism of Vogel come from:

- Being utterly suboptimal in his remaking priorities and giving insane explanations of why he does so;
- You'd be hard pressed in finding someone recommending Avadon or Queen's Wish, meaning it has been years since he threw out something worthwhile;
- He's kind of an ass in his "55+ years industry veteran proved several times wrong but 60+ years industry veteran I know better";

I found his Avernum 1-3 remakes enjoyable. Queen's Wish is OK, but I think it's mostly a case of it just being a step up from Avadon, which isn't a large step.

Amusingly enough, the Exiles/Avernum offer different setups compared to Geneforge (one could argue that Nethergate is mechanically similar, but Nethergate is probably his most experimental game). I'd argue that Exile/Avernum cater more to the combatfag player and GF to the storyfag.

There's an element of truth to this, but I still enjoy the combat a lot in GF as well. Making an army of cool monsters and bullying everyone is fun. I don't think Geneforge can be described purely as a combatfag game or a storyfag game. The way how its mechanics and writing both complement each other elevates it into something else.

Edit: Also there isn't really that much more talking in GF than in the Avernum games. It's just that dialogue is as much a part of gameplay in GF as you can unlock new dialogue choices for different routes, additional (combat) rewards or new alliances/enmities (which can also lead to new available skill rewards that shape the combat gameplay options of your character), whereas in Avernum it's just straight forward infodumping.

Although I suppose Mutagen could be called a bit more of a storyfag game since no kill runs are being supported even more now with the Stealth skill and Leadership apparently being able to pacify more creations in the wilderness, rather than being limited to a few choice encounters.

 

[Tacgnol]

One should always remember that our criticism of Vogel come from:

- Being utterly suboptimal in his remaking priorities and giving insane explanations of why he does so;
- You'd be hard pressed in finding someone recommending Avadon or Queen's Wish, meaning it has been years since he threw out something worthwhile;
- He's kind of an ass in his "55+ years industry veteran proved several times wrong but 60+ years industry veteran I know better";

I found his Avernum 1-3 remakes enjoyable. Queen's Wish is OK, but I think it's mostly a case of it just being a step up from Avadon, which isn't a large step.

Amusingly enough, the Exiles/Avernum offer different setups compared to Geneforge (one could argue that Nethergate is mechanically similar, but Nethergate is probably his most experimental game). I'd argue that Exile/Avernum cater more to the combatfag player and GF to the storyfag.

There's an element of truth to this, but I still enjoy the combat a lot in GF as well. Making an army of cool monsters and bullying everyone is fun. I don't think Geneforge can be described purely as a combatfag game or a storyfag game. The way how its mechanics and writing both complement each other elevates it into something else.

I've always considered Geneforge to be a good "all rounder". It has enough story to appeal to storyfags and it has decent combat, least the earlier entries, the later ones tend to suffer from the classic Vogel HP bloat problem.

Other thing most of the entries have done quite well is have a decent amount of rewarding exploration. Then again, Vogel has never been bad at the exploration side.

 

[Keyboard Vomit]

I haven't tried any of Spiderweb's games - is there one you all would recommend starting with? (Besides this one.)

All of the Geneforges are great, although 3 is probably the weakest.

I would recommend Nethergate. If you want one of his newer updated things instead, then go with Avernum: Escape from the Pit.

Nethergate is one of the best Spiderweb games. The original is abandonware at this point seeing as it isn't being sold anymore so I've uploaded it here: https://ufile.io/sr2bhty8 Check it out! But it only works on Windows up to XP.

The remake is being sold here: https://af.gog.com/game/nethergate_resurrection?as=1649904300 and it works on more recent versions of Windows.

I think you're wrong about Geneforge as a series, it stagnated after the second one and never lived up to how great the first game was. If you try playing them all at once you will quickly get burned out and probably not make it all the way to the fifth game and that is partly because Jeff ran out of fresh ideas.

Exile III is probably his best game, though I'd still recommend II because it gives you a lot of lore background, and makes you appreciate some parts of III more.

The three best games Jeff ever made were Exile III, Nethergate and Geneforge I. Which one of those is the best is p. much pure personal preference as they do different things about equally good.

 

[V_K]

If you try playing them all at once you will quickly get burned out and probably not make it all the way to the fifth game and that is partly because Jeff ran out of fresh ideas.

The same can be said about any of Vogel's series. Hell, I never understood what people liked about Nethergate so much because I played it right after one of the Avernum games and found it too similar. He just isn't a terribly versatile nor adventurous designer.
Which is perfectly understandable, the guy wrote 15 different games, of course he ran out of new ideas midway through it - I frankly can't think of another developer who served as a design lead on that many RPGs.

 

[fantadomat]

As much criticism as we have about Vogel, says a lot that people are recommending multiple games as "his best work".

I'm a big Geneforge 1 fan, think it's not only his best work but also a very exotic and interesting world to explore.

he may be a degenerate sjw cunt,but his early games are of high quality. All the avernum and geneforge games are really good. You could five different people choosing five different geneforge games as the best,and all of them will have legit reasons. His "best" game is a matter of personal taste than actually having a best game. It is shame how shit his newer games are. Queen's jizz is mobile level of garbage that shouldn't even be allowed on the codex.

 

[Kruno]

All the avernum and geneforge games are really good.

Go play Exile: Escape from the Pit. Still my favourite, also Exile 3.

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If I want to revisit Geneforge, is this actually going to improve things?