Let's Read Giant Wusses: A Dominions 5 tourney LP

[Reinhardt]

Who is the most noob-friendly race to try it in SP? Preferably humans and with big battalions. I'm not ready for solo heroes.

 

[Galdred]

Who is the most noob-friendly race to try it in SP? Preferably humans and with big battalions. I'm not ready for solo heroes.

Man is also what looks like the most cookie cutter human faction. Basically Arthurian knights backed by your usual medieval troops, with some magic.

Do reanimated humans count?
I had found MA ermor to be rather fun to play in SP (while they have the issue of not being able to keep friendly relations with neighbours in MP, because of death dominion).

Otherwise, Ulm has good units and doesn't rely on magic too much. I haven't played them much in Dom 5, but I used to have fun with them in Dom 2 (where they were horribly non competitive). Their armored infantry really wrecks faces, but they have bad access to magic, and no sacred units. In a way, that makes less things to worry about. Also, I really like their sprites.
My 9 year old daughter played EA Arcocephale with a Dragon and managed just fine, so I suppose you can just roll with whatever you prefer (Arco would definitely not have been my first choice for a noob, as they really work better with spells. But a flying dragon escorted by flying sacred units is rather cool).

 

[Grimwulf]

Who is the most noob-friendly race to try it in SP? Preferably humans and with big battalions. I'm not ready for solo heroes.

You could at least specify the era. I find late ages Man to be the most straight-forward nation in the game. You pretty much have to take heavy scales and rely on Man's awesome units (Tower Guards and Tower Defenders) for the most part of the game. In late game there are many creative things you could do with Magisters Arcane, but you're basically stuck with a single viable approach to LA Man until then.

 

[Glupaca]

I came here to support my brother sqeecoo, and then came to the conclusion that there are many things about him that I do not know and will probably never perceive unless I spend 1000+ hours in learning Dominions. At least.

Nice LP!

 

[mondblut]

Who is the most noob-friendly race to try it in SP? Preferably humans and with big battalions. I'm not ready for solo heroes.

In SP, every race can work like humans with big battalions (of sacreds, other troops don't exist).

Well, maybe not Ermor...

 

[Matalarata]

You forgot the type

There's also what I call the enduro category. The ones that keep playing long after all other players have abandoned a game and win through sheer patience.

 

[Dayyālu]

Who is the most noob-friendly race to try it in SP? Preferably humans and with big battalions. I'm not ready for solo heroes.

http://dominionsmods.com/index.php?showtopic=3364

EDIT: Amusingly enough, it's far easier to get anything BUT humans as a starter nations. Get Pans, boost the White Centaurs with Regen and Blood Bond, and go to town. Bigger beefy sacreds can easily deal with indies and SP AI Nations.

Human battalions can work, but the AI works better on that level and you won't understand the evolution of human nation-types (mages phalanxes and boost spells can be a bit tricky)

EDIT 2: But if you want to go to town with human battalions, Middle Age Ulm, I guess

Doesn't get better than that for human troops and their sacred cavalry is serviceable, take Prod 3 tho

You forgot the "Take this agreement or I quit the game!111" type, i.e. Dayyalu

costantly

Also, if Sqeecoo is friendly one wonders what's aggressive

In a game we're in now he's pretty much eating a nation every ten turns

 

[mondblut]

You forgot the type

There's also what I call the enduro category. The ones that keep playing long after all other players have abandoned a game and win through sheer patience.

That would be me. Weaponized boredom is the only strategy I have mastered.

 

[sqeecoo]

Turn 9: Giant Loss

I gotta stop myself from responding to everything or I'll never get an update today. So let's get into it! I'm sure nothing bad will happen.

It's not lookin' good. In the first picture the tiny heavy infantry group bypassed our Skinshifter line and headed straight for our weak human commander, and in the second picture... Well. I don't even know what happened. Sadly this is one of those turns where I don't have the file but just a few images, so this is all we get. Best I can tell the Skinshifters killed a smaller infantry group to the south while the heavy infantry headed past them towards the commander, just like the infantry in the previous battle. Then the Skinshifters turned and caught up with the heavy infantry from a very awkward angle. Well, let's look at the damage:

This is the first battle - looks like the 3 heavy infantry either didn't reach the commander or didn't kill him in time before the Skinshifters killed enough to rout the whole army. Whew!

And the second battle:

Ouch. That didn't go so well. We killed most of the indy forces but we lost four Skinshifters and routed off the field. This marks our first defeat in this game. A sad and prayerful day. These four Skinshifters will be remembered forever. Nobody will remember the stupid spearmen.

Oh and there was the battle in the farm in the north where there was a danger of Atlantis jumping us! Let's see:

Nope, that went just fine! No losses even, despite the heavy cavalry charge. We made good use of our Jotun Jarl commander's ability to form lines, which meant that no giant was isolated (as those on the corners of a box formation would be) and the cavalry charge damage was spread out evenly enough to not kill any of our Skinshifters who took it on the teeth. So here's the overall situation:

We are moving the expansion group that took the farm in the north to the province marked blue, where they will take that harder province to the east (it has heavy cav as well). I don't know where the Atlantean mercenaries from last turn went; maybe they all died taking the wasteland province to the north of the farm?
We're trying for the province on the Yomi border again (yellow) with the survivors from that lost battle. There are only four Skinshifters left alive but they should be able to do it if we assign them as guards and add our commander to the fray:

That means they will stick next to him, not suffer extra morale checks for being less than 5 to a squad as they normally would, and the commander will lend his decent combat prowess to the fight. I'm confident we can beat the leftovers of the indy group we lost to this way.

The group that took the province to the south (red) is combining with the group that moved west of the capitol last turn to attack the Jade Amazon province (green). The red province is interesting though, since we automatically found this site in it:

The unrest increase is not a huge deal with our order scales, but the three blood slaves per turn is pretty neat. It frees us from having to start bloodhunting as early as possible since we'll get a trickle of slaves to build that nice stuff we want from blood magic, ranging from sanguine dowsing rods that help us blood hunt (but require blood slaves to build) to the Flesh Eater axe, a decent weapon for our Skratti. This means our mages can keep researching longer and frees them from one of their duties, i.e. bloodhunting, for at least a while. A pretty lucky break.

We're also starting our second fort to the west in the province marked black and recruiting a single Gyga mage in the capitol, with no troops. Relations with Atlantis and our other neighbors seem to be stable both in diplomacy and in the army movement we can see. Hinnom seems to be serious about attacking Yomi in the very near future, and I'd be fine with raiding there a bit as long as Hinnom is willing to take the brunt of the attacks. I won't say no to a couple of nearly-free provinces while we catch up on research and infrastructure.

Oh and we pinged that throne to the SE:

Lots of barbarians and multiple mages capable of spamming skeletons. It'd be costly to take that with Skinshifters, so we'll wait on that.

So, we experienced our first loss this turn. It was not a big loss. But it was a loss of giants and therefore I don't see the title of this update as misleading. These are the kind of wordsmith skills you need to develop to flourish in the world of Dominions diplomacy, my friends.

Next time, we will hopefully kill a bunch of amazonian women. Are you not entertained?!

 

[Infinitum]

Mmm yeah. Pretty much why I've sworn off minimal expansion parties. You risk significnt attrition early game, have less troops with which to deter early riding and punishing other players for spaghetting onto your turf. All for holding a few low gpt ea provinces for a few extra turns.

 

[Grimwulf]

Ouch. That didn't go so well.

Your face didn't go so well. And this battle is a tribute to your slopiness. Not because you lost it, but because you DIDN'T NEED to attack a province that you CLAIMED, and your neighbour ACCEPTED! Combining this squad with some minimall reinforcements and going for Northia (a perfect place for a fort) would be WAY more sensible. Fuck's sake.

We're trying for the province on the Yomi border again (yellow) with the survivors from that lost battle.

Some people never learn.

I'm confident we can beat the leftovers of the indy group we lost to this way.

All it takes is a couple solid hits on your commander. Another wasted turn, more dead Jotuns. You are not confident, you're just PRAYUN FOR DA BUST again.

I don't know where the Atlantean mercenaries from last turn went; maybe they all died taking the wasteland province to the north of the farm?

Can't you see the mercenary commander standing right there?

Flesh Eater axe, a decent weapon for our Skratti

Not gonna bite this OBVIOUS trolling. The power of Hangover protects me.

This means our mages can keep researching longer and frees them from one of their duties, i.e. bloodhunting, for at least a while.

3 slaves/turn makes no difference. You need HEAVY blood economy FAST. You must rush Blood6 BEFORE you get to Constr6, that means you need to empower a B3 Skratti into B4, while having 120 slaves left to cast Illwinter and 15 slaves to forge Armor of Twisting Thorns.

That site you found only gives you a head-start regarding SDR, but it's not gonna cut it. Start forging SDR and prepare for blood hunting. Use Bone Fiends for patrols.

We're also starting our second fort to the west in the province marked black

Should have been the first. If TC invades before you finish construction, I will beat you senseless.

and recruiting a single Gyga mage in the capitol, with no troops

I would stop recruiting troops at this point altogether.

Hinnom seems to be serious about attacking Yomi in the very near future, and I'd be fine with raiding there a bit as long as Hinnom is willing to take the brunt of the attacks.

Yet another sloppy decision. ARE YOU EVEN THINKING IN THIS GAME, OR JUST DOING SHIT COMPULSIVELY??

I would rather sort it out with Atlantis, while letting Hinnom and Yomi drag their petty war for as long as possible.

A Jarl with Constr2 equip would take it during Cold 3. If you took awaken Pretender, this province would be under Cold3 already.

I don't see the title of this update as misleading.

True dat. I would even rename this thread "A Giant Loss".

A GIANT LOSS OF MY TIME!!

 

[sqeecoo]

Your face didn't go so well. And this battle is a tribute to your slopiness. Not because you lost it, but because you DIDN'T NEED to attack a province that you CLAIMED, and your neighbour ACCEPTED! Combining this squad with some minimall reinforcements and going for Northia (a perfect place for a fort) would be WAY more sensible. Fuck's sake.

To be honest, I consider getting provinces in a land deal and then postponing taking them for a long time to be impolite (especially this close to his capitol). It's too close to bullying for my taste and therefore goes against my FRIENDSHIP agenda.

Also, if Sqeecoo is friendly one wonders what's aggressive

In a game we're in now he's pretty much eating a nation every ten turns

I'm friendly until I'm aggressive!

Can't you see the mercenary commander standing right there?

Ah, well spotted! I guess there were necromancers spamming skellies in the waste so he lost all of the mercs? I've had surprise necros happen to me in wastes before.

3 slaves/turn makes no difference. You need HEAVY blood economy FAST. You must rush Blood6 BEFORE you get to Constr6, that means you need to empower a B3 Skratti into B4, while having 120 slaves left to cast Illwinter and 15 slaves to forge Armor of Twisting Thorns.

Hmm! So how early would you cast Illwinter? Doesn't that like make the whole world mad at you? After you've killed Atlantis, the only nation who maybe doesn't mind it so much cause it doesn't affect the water? I don't remember you casting it THAT early in that game we played where you were Nifel, but maybe I'm wrong.

At the time, the plan was to cast it in the late midgame (if we ever get there ) when a few players were eliminated and we had a firm ally who was willing to tolerate it.

 

[Grimwulf]

It's too close to bullying for my taste and therefore goes against my FRIENDSHIP agenda.

Since you KNOW about Hinnom's plans to attack Yomi in the nearest future, you should also KNOW that some unclaimed border provinces will be the least Yomi player's concerns.

I guess there were necromancers spamming skellies in the waste so he lost all of the mercs?

The archer squad most likely retreated, the commander did not.

Hmm! So how early would you cast Illwinter?

Constr4 --> Alt4 --> Ench3 --> Blood6. Maybe even Ench2, increasing to Ench3 if the need arises.

Doesn't that like make the whole world mad at you?

Yes. Would you rather lose the game? You can't play without it as Niefels, unless your plan is to sit it out in your cap, watching someone else win the game. The sooner you launch Illwinter - the sooner you become competitive.

I don't remember you casting it THAT early in that game we played where you were Nifel, but maybe I'm wrong.

I was constantly at war with somebody, which affected my research. And yet I was doing everything in my power to rush it.

At the time, the plan was to cast it in the late midgame

if we ever get there

With that kind of attitude, you won't.

and we had a firm ally who was willing to tolerate it.

FOR FUCKS SAKE, diplo aspect of Illwinter should be the LAST THING TO CONSIDER!! Can't you understand that this global turns Niefelheim from a moderately-annoying-nation to UNBEATABLE MONSTROSITY TO AVOID AT ALL COSTS?

What's the FUCKING alternative then? Spamming Wolven Winter every time you go to war? YEAH, THAT'S SO MUCH BETTER, SO TOLERANT OF YOU! AT LEAST YOU WILL STAY FRIENDLY, RIGHT??

You're not PLAYING DOMINIONS right now!!

 

[Joined on the 4th of July]

I remember being so butthurt in THAT game, when sqeecoo refused to attack Grim's NIefelheim after he had cast Illwinter. "Sure it's a bit annoying, but I still have a NAP with him and don't want to break it. " Maybe he had a NAP, but he also was busy eating free meals (ie. people who had previously accepted Grim's "generous" peace terms) and winning the game.

It's all about butthurt management at least in Codex games. People have vendettas against everyone, but they do have to prioritize one over the others.

 

[sqeecoo]

I was constantly at war with somebody

I can't imagine why :D

FOR FUCKS SAKE, diplo aspect of Illwinter should be the LAST THING TO CONSIDER!! Can't you understand that this global turns Niefelheim from a moderately-annoying-nation to UNBEATABLE MONSTROSITY TO AVOID AT ALL COSTS?

What's the FUCKING alternative then? Spamming Wolven Winter every time you go to war? YEAH, THAT'S SO MUCH BETTER, SO TOLERANT OF YOU! AT LEAST YOU WILL STAY FRIENDLY, RIGHT??

Well, the plan is to not use Nifel Jarls (pls don't kill me) except defensively but instead to focus on Skratti and Gyga with a bit of Skinshifer/summons when fighting heat nations until we are ready to cast Illwinter. We shall see how it works!

I remember being so butthurt in THAT game, when sqeecoo refused to attack Grim's NIefelheim after he had cast Illwinter. "Sure it's a bit annoying, but I still have a NAP with him and don't want to break it. " Maybe he had a NAP, but he also was busy eating free meals (ie. people who had previously accepted Grim's "generous" peace terms) and winning the game.

It's all about butthurt management at least in Codex games. People have vendettas against everyone, but they do have to prioritize one over the others.

True, true. No amount of FRIENDLINESS can stem the flow of butthurt. Btw in that game I was playing Agartha, a cold-blooded nation that takes massive fatigue penalties in the cold temperature that Illwinter creates, but I still decided it more profitable to eat Grim's leftovers than to try to stop Illwinter. I guess that turned out to be a good decision?

But back to this game!

Turn 10: Entangled Amazons

So last turn we attacked that Jade Amazon province with a strong group. However, this happened:

The two brave raptor-riding amazons charged in and caused our giants to clump around them before they killed them, breaking our formation and exposing our left flank to the amazonian infantry following behind. One of our Skinshifters got totally surrounded and would have died if not for this:

The two Jade Amazon sorceresses (red) kept casting Tangle Vines, a low-level but effective spell:

Anything this hits will be unable to attack and have it's defense reduced to 0 until it can disentangle itself, which is not easy. We are fighting in a forest with +2 growth scale - Skinshifters have strength 22 so it lasts only a turn for them, but that's still significant. It's actually a great early spell, especially against stuff with high defense such as cavalry or elves. However it only hits one square and it can miss. And boy did the amazonian sorceresses miss. You can see 4 squares of amazons entangled by vines (green), three of which are the amazons surrounding our left flank due to the brave sacrifice of the raptor riders. A massive fail for the amazons and a lucky break for us that prevents us from loosing any dudes:

On the western front, our brave commander engages in melee as we described last turn:

Not only does he not rout, he gets enough personal kills to earn him a spot in the Hall of Fame:

He gets a bonus to magic resistance. Fun, but not really impactful If he'd gotten something like quickness we could have used him as a budget thug.

The overall situation is as follows:

We've decided not to take the cavalry province (blue) with the prophet group we moved that way last turn. The prophet group (in the forest directly west) has 11 dudes, which may not be enough if there's like 12 heavy cav out of the 60ish toops defending. Instead we're merging the prophet group and the group that just beat the amazons at the red mark and going for those barbarians to the west and hopefully then that farmland further west. We could beat the barbs with less, but at this point it's good to bring overwhelming force cause the barbs with their big mauls can really put the hurt on our giants if they outnumber us badly. Another consideration is that that Atlantis is showing no further signs of shiftiness so our coast should be safe enough in the short term.

We're also moving one of our few Gygas from the capitol to the location of our first fort (orange) with two turns still to go on the fort. This way she can build a lab there next turn, and the lab and fort will finish on the same turn so that we can recruit mages immediately. This kind of micro is pretty important as it saves us valuable fort turns.

Our brave Hall of Fame hero of the eastern front is returning to the capitol to pick up the group of Skinshifters we are recruiting and take that cavalry province.

We won't be making army troops for much longer (at least we're also making mages now too), but I'd like some more dudes for the Yomi offensive which is now pretty much decided on. I'm not saying there were not better options we might have wished for, but Yomi is the only option we can currently attack with an ally, and fighting such an easy early war was part of our VISION described above. It also adheres to the "go with my flow" diplomatic mentality. It also cements our friendship with Hinnom.

At the time we did not have the benefit of Grim's advice on fighting Atlantis so I didn't think it'd be a good war to fight solo; even if it was, however, that's a much riskier move than fighting Yomi in a minor capacity while waiting for our research. If we get attacked by, say, Tien Chi from the west while fighting Atlantis solo, we have a war on two fronts; if we're fighting Yomi we could pull back from there if we needed to while Hinnom continues to occupy Yomi.

We can also note that Yomi has constructed a temple (green) in an unforted province next to his cap. Temples generate Ko-Oni demons for Yomi - tiny dudes you can see in that province, moderately dangerous in the same way as bakemono due to being small and 6 to a square. An unprotected temple like that is a prime war target, especially since it deprives them of freespawn.

Finally, we've also started recruiting monkey leaders from that monkey province we conquered:

While these guys are more expensive than scouts (40 vs 25 gold) due to being able to lead troops, they are also stealthy and can serve the role of scouts. Since none of the provinces we have allow us to recruit human scouts (this is random) we have to make do with these guys for now. Scouts are very important for... scouting, but also for carrying around gems and sometimes gear for your armies and thugs. You can never have enough!

That concludes the update. Next time we fight some bulky barbarians and see if Tien Chi has expanded to that farmland - if not, their expansion is so poor we will seriously consider attacking them instead or even in addition to Yomi.

 

[Reinhardt]

 

[Reinhardt]

I like it. Already did lots of things that would make Grimwulf's vein pop. But it's not very comfortable to play with one hand. - commander management. So it will have to wait.

Reading about giants is misleading. Lost 2/3 of my army in the forest to some barbarians. There were "only" twice as much enemies as map told me. So after watching replay i know now that you need proper battle plan with lines and shit. And bigger numbers. Knight Commander still won this battle for me but...

 

[InD_ImaginE]

godammit this thread makes me want to play Dom MP games

 

[Reinhardt]

Why not - sounds like very friendly thing.

 

[Demo.Graph]

Damn, it's frustrating to read this

"Sure it's a bit annoying, but I still have a NAP with him and don't want to break it. "

looking at this.

 

[Reinhardt]

But it's not very comfortable to play with one hand. - commander management.

That's what i'm talking about -

Thought i've sent 2 heroes and army but instead it was one freshly recruited commander. He still won and now famous hero.

This shit is addictive. I keep closing it and launching again.

 

[Reinhardt]

Aaaand now i have war with giants. We invaded same province. Anakites slaughtered my human infantry and started to rape longbowmen but i managed to rout them. Shit is scary. I didn't expected giants to travel in groups of 15+

 

[Infinitum]

Surprise, shock and regret are pretty much the core gameplay loop until you get a hold of things. Then it's mostly just weary resignation (eg were this multiplayer those same 15 anakites, properly blessed, would kill your expansion group, main supported army, capital PD and pretender in order and without breaking a sweat).

 

[Reinhardt]

15 anakites would do it for me even now. There was like 5 of them in the army. And this one battle dropped both our nations armies almost to zero judging by graphs. All i left with is some scouts on borders, 2 knight commanders, 20 or so longbowmen and pretender with his harem "researching" stuff in capital.

 

[Reinhardt]

At least now this thread starts to make SOME sense to me. And i'm starting to see SOME benefits in "being friendly". Correct me if i'm wrong, but in MP we both would be dead in next two turns after this minor accident?