Andnjord
Arcane
Aaaah, and here is the Yang to Sqeecoo's Ying. Balance has been restored in this thread 
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Let's Read Giant Wusses: A Dominions 5 tourney LP
- Thread starter sqeecoo
- Start date
Infinitum
Scholar
- Joined
- Apr 30, 2016
- Messages
- 700
Although what is this madness about attacking Atlantis underwater? Skrattir do not beat Strength of Giants'd Water Elementals, and any decent Atlanis player will rush Conjuration 5. Kicking them off land should be simple enough given that deep one spearmen have shit MR and cannot into Vineshields though.
Dayyālu
Arcane
Infinitum is right.
It's perfectly doable to rush Atlantis with a specific build, before they get Conj3 (that already makes things messy) or God forbid Conj5 (that makes things bothersome), but you gotta prepare specifically.
It's far better to let them rot and contain, or dump Black Servants in their pond with Bane Venom charms.
If you are referring to the typical problems of Atlantis having extremely expensive research, that's correct: it's nonetheless not wise to contest them UW if not very early with a specific build, it's better to let them rot. Beating Elementals is not impossible, but it's usually not worth the effort.
It's perfectly doable to rush Atlantis with a specific build, before they get Conj3 (that already makes things messy) or God forbid Conj5 (that makes things bothersome), but you gotta prepare specifically.
It's far better to let them rot and contain, or dump Black Servants in their pond with Bane Venom charms.
If you are referring to the typical problems of Atlantis having extremely expensive research, that's correct: it's nonetheless not wise to contest them UW if not very early with a specific build, it's better to let them rot. Beating Elementals is not impossible, but it's usually not worth the effort.
This. But let's say Atlantis took Great Sage or some shit as Pretender, and goes full research. Let's say he does reach Conj 5 before Niefelheim gets Constr 4. Okay. It's not even a stretch, it's a wet Atlantean fantasy, but okay.
What's the plan here? Water Elementals under SoG? Against Niefel Jarls? Do we really need to discuss this?
I never said anything about fighting UW with Skrattis. It's actually pretty stupid.
By the time Niefels reach Constr4, Atlantis would have nothing against Niefel Jarls. We're talking about pre-Constr4 period, when Niefelheim is supposedly easier to beat playing as Atlantis (see sqeecoo's posts above). My point is Constr2, Alt2, Ench2 is enough to invade Atlantis and beat it UW reliably, with a single problem being breaking walls UW. Which is doable if you go for recruiting indy UW units, but also isn't necessary - you can easily end the war with a tribute, while milking UW provinces for gold while it lasts.
It's very basic, very easy to pull off. I'm saying this coz I did it in an old Decline game here on Codex, attacking some other UW nation IIRC as Niefelheim, and--
Wait. Hold on. Aren't you the player who played as my UW opponent back then..?
Edit: nope. Your avatars are just similar-looking.
Infinitum
Scholar
- Joined
- Apr 30, 2016
- Messages
- 700
So raiding with your slow-to-recruit 500+ gold cap only, underwater, vs a water nation with capital earth income, national access to to dwarfen hammers and quickened cold resistant Greatsword of Sharpness counterthugs available at construction 2/alt 2. For several turns until their bread and butter mage gets access to the ubiquitous hardcounter to underwater everything. In years 1-2. With drain Niefelheim. Gettting that player to pay you for your trouble.
Right then, argument over. Let's see how the power of friendship holds up in this game shall we?
Right then, argument over. Let's see how the power of friendship holds up in this game shall we?
Kalin
Unwanted
I don't understand anything and this is awesome! 
- Joined
- Aug 23, 2015
- Messages
- 5,947
A but out of topic, I think I played Dom 3 a long time ago. Due to timezone difference I probably won't get to MP game ever, is Dom 5 worth buying playing SP? I read in some reviews that the AI cheat in Dom 5 (reading your moves even tho turn should be simultaneous in Dom).
Serious players play Dominions through PBEM, timezones make no difference.
Honestly, no. Go for Conquest of Elysium 4 if you want to scratch that Illwinter-game itch in SP.
Mondblut would probably disagree with this, but he is the only Dominions player I know who enjoys playing this game in SP somehow.
Nope, not the case. It's just random at everything it does. Sorta like sqeecoo in this LP.
Dayyālu
Arcane
I don't understand anything and this is awesome!
It's very easy, to beat Atlantis with Niel you merely have to prepare the bless (taking the proper scales) for the thug/SC chassis to properly bypass the maluses of Poor Amphibian due the Misc item you equip him with, then you gotta reach enough Con and Alt to properly script and hope it doesn't autorout or get beaten by Strength'ened obsidian lance attacks (gotta check that unit density!).
Here, piece of cake.
And this is for two nations. Out of .... eighty?
Timezone difference? You know it's a PBEM with 24-48 hours turns usually? A game can last months. Get it, it's somewhat fun. At times.
sqeecoo
Arcane
- Joined
- Dec 13, 2006
- Messages
- 2,629
Grimwulf makes great points as usual 
I did test expansion in SP and this was the best expansion strategy I came up with; I'll have to try out the big army reinforcement strategy if I play Nifel again. It could let you recruit mages steadily which would be great, although expansion would be slower overall - and in a map like this I thought prioritizing expansion was the right move. So far we've taken risks but did well - I did get a good feel on what Skinshifters could beat in SP and was reasonably sure we would win each of our expansion battles. The Zots one was the iffiest, but I did really want to grab territory in Yomi's direction. You're right that it's hard to hold the cave against Yomi, but we scouted he was expanding badly so I thought pressuring for more territory in his direction was the right move.
And I'm still not sold that an early war with Atlantis would have been so great. Vs other water nations perhaps, but Atlantis has good answers as Infinitum pointed out. Expanding this aggressively is made possible by the Altantis territory deal and is a fine idea in principle I think. We're very strong early on defensively if we do get gangbanged, so I thought grabbing as much territory as possible was a decent idea. We'll see how it goes tho
I definitely messed up with the mages and forts, no doubt about that. Research for stuff like Horror helms is more important than a couple of provinces, and starting Skratti production ASAP is also a priority. I completely agree I didn't balance things well here, although I'm decently happy with our expansion overall, and fairly confident we could win a defensive war against our neighbors at this point.
I do eventually build a fort on the Jade amazon province, which was dumb, I agree. A lab would have been enough. I guess I thought we'd want as many sorcs as possible which is true, but that's not worth the opportunity cost of a fort that's not producing Skratti.
Anyway thanks for the feedback and we'll continue when I finish nursing my hangover!
I did test expansion in SP and this was the best expansion strategy I came up with; I'll have to try out the big army reinforcement strategy if I play Nifel again. It could let you recruit mages steadily which would be great, although expansion would be slower overall - and in a map like this I thought prioritizing expansion was the right move. So far we've taken risks but did well - I did get a good feel on what Skinshifters could beat in SP and was reasonably sure we would win each of our expansion battles. The Zots one was the iffiest, but I did really want to grab territory in Yomi's direction. You're right that it's hard to hold the cave against Yomi, but we scouted he was expanding badly so I thought pressuring for more territory in his direction was the right move.
And I'm still not sold that an early war with Atlantis would have been so great. Vs other water nations perhaps, but Atlantis has good answers as Infinitum pointed out. Expanding this aggressively is made possible by the Altantis territory deal and is a fine idea in principle I think. We're very strong early on defensively if we do get gangbanged, so I thought grabbing as much territory as possible was a decent idea. We'll see how it goes tho
I definitely messed up with the mages and forts, no doubt about that. Research for stuff like Horror helms is more important than a couple of provinces, and starting Skratti production ASAP is also a priority. I completely agree I didn't balance things well here, although I'm decently happy with our expansion overall, and fairly confident we could win a defensive war against our neighbors at this point.
I do eventually build a fort on the Jade amazon province, which was dumb, I agree. A lab would have been enough. I guess I thought we'd want as many sorcs as possible which is true, but that's not worth the opportunity cost of a fort that's not producing Skratti.
Anyway thanks for the feedback and we'll continue when I finish nursing my hangover!
Here is your mistake. Unlike most other nations, Niefelheim doesn't need to prioritize grabbing as many provinces each turn as possible. Preserving your troops is the thing that counts. That's because you DO NOT RECRUIT ANY UNITS EVER as soon as you're done with expansion. You have one army - probably split in two, depending on the situation - that's it. All your gold goes into forts (first), Niefel Jarls (second), Skrattis/Gygjas (third).
Niefelheim does NOT need units after expansion. Those Skinshifters are dead weight.
Oh, ffs. Nothing can take down a properly equipped Niefel Jarl, ESPECIALLY not ATLANTIS.
Yeah, I remembered the guy. He's the one who STICKS EYES OF THE FUCKING VOID in S5 (!!!) Elder Druids. He's fucking MENTAL, dammit! I got BARELY enough patience for YOU, so I'm done explaining basic shit to someone like Infinitum.
I thought grabbing as much territory as possible was a decent idea. We'll see how it goes tho
Spoiler alert: it's gonna b CATASTROPHIC.
sqeecoo
Arcane
- Joined
- Dec 13, 2006
- Messages
- 2,629
Turn 7: Shifty Frogmen
Ok, let's see how those expansion moves went!
The deer tribe fell with no issues - they are one of the easier indy types in general.
The horse tribe can sometimes be tricky - they fire arrows and also have lances for a charge attack when you close in. But the giants are tough enough to take them out with just the loss of the supporting normal giant. Not bad.
The guys recruited in our capitol last turn are heading south, while our expansion parties are now combining against the monkeys in the east (green) and heading on to take that province towards Yomi who is politely leaving it to us, also combining against some tribals (red) to then take that farm to the north.
Unfortunately we can see that Atlantis has been shifty about our land deal and has grabbed an extra province up there (blue). But he doesn't seem aggressive towards us overall based on army movement. Atlantis tells us that the province was just a target of opportunity but that he'd like to keep it. I let it go for now and only offer a mild protest instead of some king of ultimatum or whatnot. But while the grab of this province is maybe not enough to immediately attack him, I dislike small shifty moves like this. It really erodes my confidence that a long-term alliance with Atlantis is possible. I'll bide my time for now, however. We can always have our revenge later, whereas not making a big deal of it now will help us stay friendly with Atlantis if the situation requires it. Victory over vanity.
In general I think revenge is best served when you are ready to do it (or when you've lost and it's your last remaining move); it's also important to be able to work with people despite previous disputes/betrayals. There's no reason to get all righteous and hurt yourself in the pursuit of vengeance over a slight like this. But we shall not forget that Atlantis has not really been fully trustworthy here.
On a side-note, Atlantis seems to be expanding with Coral Guard here, which doesn't seem like a great option to me. They are not that strong and are expensive on resources so you can't make them too quickly. But I've never played EA Atlantis so maybe their somewhat better sustainability is worth it. We've also not yet met our western neighbor, who's identity remains a mystery.
In the meantime I've reached out to Hinnom, who has indeed spawned in the NE (orange). The guy turns out to be pretty friendly and we talk about a potential attack on Yomi, who has expanded poorly. If Hinnom goes for Yomi I'd be happy to net myself a few low-effort provinces while I research up. On that note, we finally recruit a second researcher in our capitol:
I should really be saving up for a fort and not making any troops, but at this point I felt I could no longer trust Atlantis to stick to our deals so I wanted to get the rest of the coast ASAP. I therefore ready another expansion party to be ready to move out next turn.
Our brave scout has also continued eastward beyond Yomi (green) and has found a weird situation:
What's going on here! Everybody seems to be jumbled up. It seems like Abysia (red arrow indicates the direction of his capitol) took his extremely strong starting army and marched to his SW to that farmland, right between Yomi and Tir na nOg (TNN) (black circles). That will surely earn Abysia the friendship of his southern neighbors! I dislike that move; while I'm all for aggressive expansion, deliberately getting yourself into a position that antagonizes people like this seems unwise.
Next turn, we'll see if the frogmen will reveal themselves to be truly treacherous and whether we can scrounge up to start a fort.
Ok, let's see how those expansion moves went!
The deer tribe fell with no issues - they are one of the easier indy types in general.
The horse tribe can sometimes be tricky - they fire arrows and also have lances for a charge attack when you close in. But the giants are tough enough to take them out with just the loss of the supporting normal giant. Not bad.
The guys recruited in our capitol last turn are heading south, while our expansion parties are now combining against the monkeys in the east (green) and heading on to take that province towards Yomi who is politely leaving it to us, also combining against some tribals (red) to then take that farm to the north.
Unfortunately we can see that Atlantis has been shifty about our land deal and has grabbed an extra province up there (blue). But he doesn't seem aggressive towards us overall based on army movement. Atlantis tells us that the province was just a target of opportunity but that he'd like to keep it. I let it go for now and only offer a mild protest instead of some king of ultimatum or whatnot. But while the grab of this province is maybe not enough to immediately attack him, I dislike small shifty moves like this. It really erodes my confidence that a long-term alliance with Atlantis is possible. I'll bide my time for now, however. We can always have our revenge later, whereas not making a big deal of it now will help us stay friendly with Atlantis if the situation requires it. Victory over vanity.
In general I think revenge is best served when you are ready to do it (or when you've lost and it's your last remaining move); it's also important to be able to work with people despite previous disputes/betrayals. There's no reason to get all righteous and hurt yourself in the pursuit of vengeance over a slight like this. But we shall not forget that Atlantis has not really been fully trustworthy here.
On a side-note, Atlantis seems to be expanding with Coral Guard here, which doesn't seem like a great option to me. They are not that strong and are expensive on resources so you can't make them too quickly. But I've never played EA Atlantis so maybe their somewhat better sustainability is worth it. We've also not yet met our western neighbor, who's identity remains a mystery.
In the meantime I've reached out to Hinnom, who has indeed spawned in the NE (orange). The guy turns out to be pretty friendly and we talk about a potential attack on Yomi, who has expanded poorly. If Hinnom goes for Yomi I'd be happy to net myself a few low-effort provinces while I research up. On that note, we finally recruit a second researcher in our capitol:
I should really be saving up for a fort and not making any troops, but at this point I felt I could no longer trust Atlantis to stick to our deals so I wanted to get the rest of the coast ASAP. I therefore ready another expansion party to be ready to move out next turn.
Our brave scout has also continued eastward beyond Yomi (green) and has found a weird situation:
What's going on here! Everybody seems to be jumbled up. It seems like Abysia (red arrow indicates the direction of his capitol) took his extremely strong starting army and marched to his SW to that farmland, right between Yomi and Tir na nOg (TNN) (black circles). That will surely earn Abysia the friendship of his southern neighbors! I dislike that move; while I'm all for aggressive expansion, deliberately getting yourself into a position that antagonizes people like this seems unwise.
Next turn, we'll see if the frogmen will reveal themselves to be truly treacherous and whether we can scrounge up to start a fort.
And that's why you should have expanded in this direction from the start. You needed those forests for resources, they would allow you to recruit Jotun Hirdmen and Jorun Huskarls in bulk (by Niefelheim standards), who are way more durable and gold-efficient units than anything Niefelheim has to offer.
What was that again?
What a gloriously inaccurate way to say "MEN, I'VE BEEN CUCKED". Look at your DEAL again:
He grabbed your provinces. No surprise here, I would do the same. You would do the same. Just put yourself in his shoes.
- Okay, the game is about to start! Let's see how long I can survive before Niefelheim comes for me!
- Hmm, Niefelheim started diplomacy, offering a... deal? Really? Must be some kind of trap. I mean, he gives away territories and asks nothing in return!
- WTF, he's actually serious about the whole thing. Oh, wow. Probably a noob. A whole new level of noob.
- DEAL! My giant "friends"! We are friendly just like you. Let's do friendship this whole game! *fishy kiss*
- Now I can grab even more lands from Niefelheim. He'll suck it up, I know. For some reason this player is afraid of Atlanties, hue hue
- YE, EAT THIS! Whaddya gonna do, HUH??
- Heh heh, he's asking me why did I break the deal. Let's see...
and also
- I'm not breaking our deal, giant "friends". Nuh-huh. Just some minor adjustments, that's all
In other words, HE IS FUCKING YOU, SQEECOO! FUCKING YOU AT YOUR OWN GAME!
HE WOT?!
U WOT?!
That's LITERALLY THE LIFE MOTTO OF EVERY SINGLE CUCK IN THE WORLD!!!
Absolutely WRONG! What you and other local "experts", my arse, entirely missed about Atlantis is that their best bet against giants is POISON, not just magic (basalt) weapons or something utterly inane like SoG's Water Elementals (GUD LUCK BUFFING WATER ELEMENTALS! I'd fucking love to see THAT!).
I'm pretty sure he expands with other troops on his other fronts but uses Coral Guards on yours. And the reason for that is simple: he's gonna grab MORE of your provinces, and you won't do SHIT to stop it. You are too FRIENDLY for dat.
EXACTLY, DAMN YOU! You should have done that LONG time ago! This:
You didn't need this. Not now. You need A SINGLE FUCKING FORT ALREADY, fuck's sake
IT'S TURN SEVEN!!!
Too late for that.
A gud player would let Atlantis grab the coasts and then IMMIDEATELY re-take them from Atlantis, no warning, just a straight FUCK YOU FROGS rrright in his face. Naturally, a gud player would start preparing for this now.
A FRIENDLY player like you KILLS HIS OWN ECONOMY to "OH GAWD GOTTA GRAB COASTS" that are formally yours, but you can no longer trust your FRIENDS that CUCKED you one time already, so now you're making haste. Why? BECAUSE YOU DON'T WANT TO HAVE ANOTHER CUCK SITUATION LIKE THIS:
WHAT THE FUUUUUUUCK!!!
FUCK EXPANSION! BUY NIEFEL JARLS! BUILD FORTS FOR SKRATTIS! TEACH HIM A FUCKING LESSON! BE A NIEFEL GIANT, NOT A HUMAN CUCKOLD!
Grimrage is the best part of this LP
In fact, I enjoy playing this game on 1500 province maps with 100 nations in 15 disciple teams. With nationgen. Don't think any MP could compete
Dayyālu
Arcane
In fact, I enjoy playing this game on 1500 province maps with 100 nations in 15 disciple teams. With nationgen. Don't think any MP could compete
Latus MP beats that any day. Without effort.
It's like putting your dick in a vise and enjoying the pain, but Latus games are.... an experience.
For those who don't know, this is Latus:
For those who don't know, this is Latus:
Eyecandy indeed, but I hate maps with lots of teleports connecting provinces half the map away. Wraparound alone is painful enough, shit that forces me to think in 6D terms is a no-go.
sqeecoo
Arcane
- Joined
- Dec 13, 2006
- Messages
- 2,629
I'm pretty sure he expands with other troops on his other fronts but uses Coral Guards on yours. And the reason for that is simple: he's gonna grab MORE of your provinces, and you won't do SHIT to stop it. You are too FRIENDLY for dat.
That's a really good point I hadn't thought of at the time! Btw I'm doing my best to not spoil the future and just present my thoughts at the time.
Overall, you're completely right that I should have let Atlantis break the deal further if he wanted to while forting up, and then pushed him into the sea - instead of sacrificing my fort production.
I'm still not sold on going against Atlantis UW though. Sticking a few Greatswords of Sharpness on some cheap commanders (a cheap high-damage 2h sword with armor piercing i.e. armor halving damage) and/or getting to Conj5 for large water elementals seem like good counters to both early Jarling and Jarling at Con4/Alt4. I'd much rather have peace and fight a land nation I can actually beat than risk pricey Jarls UW for, what, tribute? And an eternally butthurt enemy just waiting to pounce when I'm weak or get conquered by someone like Fomoria with real UW capability?
Incidentally, that's exactly what I did as Agartha in that game we mentioned where you left a beat up UW nation alive as Nifelheim
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