Hard West 2 - sequel from Ice Code Games

[Trithne]

Thats just fixed seeding, an anti-savescumming measure that's pretty standard in the genre these days. Theres usually an option to disable it.

 

[Bigg Boss]

Sounds like Fanta fucking sucks at this game and keeps reloading and whining about it not being good. Just get a refund and piss off or something.

 

[ERYFKRAD]

Ohhh also the % to hit is fake lol,your hits are predetermined at the start of the turn. You could reload the same turn and see that the same actions have the same effect. So if you have 50 chance to hit someone,you will always hit him or not depending on what the game rolled at the start of the turn. You will need to change the position for different % to have different outcome.....maybe. Haven't tried to see if you will have the same outcome if you position yourself for 25%hit chance. That makes the game in to pure puzzle game lol.

Dude even xcom2 and dungeons of Naheulbeuk had this.

 

[Taka-Haradin puolipeikko]

Ohhh also the % to hit is fake lol,your hits are predetermined at the start of the turn. You could reload the same turn and see that the same actions have the same effect. So if you have 50 chance to hit someone,you will always hit him or not depending on what the game rolled at the start of the turn. You will need to change the position for different % to have different outcome.....maybe. Haven't tried to see if you will have the same outcome if you position yourself for 25%hit chance. That makes the game in to pure puzzle game lol.

Dude even xcom2 and dungeons of Naheulbeuk had this.

And so did Jagged Alliance 2.

 

[ArchAngel]

Sounds like Fanta fucking sucks at this game and keeps reloading and whining about it not being good. Just get a refund and piss off or something.

He sucks at all games, it is why he plays on low difficulty when he can. You cannot be a drunk and not have your brain destroyed by it.

 

[Bigg Boss]

Playing on low difficulty is something I am so ashamed of when I have to do it. I had to lower the difficulty to beat a game recently due to me selling some stuff I should not have and not wanting to reload several hours of tedious trash mobs. It made me feel like less of a man. I guess that is what fanta feels like.

 

[Harthwain]

Ohhh also the % to hit is fake lol,your hits are predetermined at the start of the turn. You could reload the same turn and see that the same actions have the same effect. So if you have 50 chance to hit someone,you will always hit him or not depending on what the game rolled at the start of the turn. You will need to change the position for different % to have different outcome.....maybe. Haven't tried to see if you will have the same outcome if you position yourself for 25%hit chance. That makes the game in to pure puzzle game lol.

Dude even xcom2 and dungeons of Naheulbeuk had this.

XCOM: Enemy Within expansion had Save Scum option for Second Wave (you had to unlock them by winning the game, if I remember correctly). Loading a saved game changed the random number seed, resulting in different results when taking identical actions.

 

[Bigg Boss]

By the time I finally give Long War a fair shake maybe this will be on sale.

 

[Saduj]

I don't agree with Fanta on the game in general but he is right that the % to hit is not completely accurate. I've missed 100% hit chances 3-4 times so far.

Also, Fanta might be playing on the hardest setting, which has a timer for every mission. I'm playing on Hard (medium setting) and so far only one of my missions had a timer but in other cases there were soft timers for bonus objectives. Not sure if the timer is the only added difficulty on the toughest setting.

If I was playing every mission with a timer, I'd probably hate it too. There are lots of enemies that need to be fully killed in one turn or they will regenerate fully OR swap damage/status effects with one of your healthy characters (never leave a native spellcaster injured, especially with 1 HP). They tend to have enough hit points to take 2-3 hits, depending on which characters hit them. And you basically only get 4 attacks per turn plus a bonus attack for each kill. There are many times where I have one attack left in a turn and I don't use it because the enemy will just regenerate or turn whatever damage I do against me on the AI turn. Explosives cost less AP to use than guns so they can be an equalizer. They aren't strong enough to kill anything but getting partial damage on on a few enemies so that they take less hits to kill is huge.

The AI in this game is really good at times too. More than once, I've gotten down to a lone enemy (generic units but a tougher ones with pain the ass abilities) and they've still managed to pose a threat by managing AP between attack and movement very effectively. Lone enemies will run into buildings and it is a pain in the ass to track them down because you need 2-3 characters in place to hit them in one turn in order to kill them. They will use hit and run tactics while you try to set them up. I can see losing out on timed missions just based on how effectively some enemies can hold out when outnumbered.

 

[Tacgnol]

I don't agree with Fanta on the game in general but he is right that the % to hit is not completely accurate. I've missed 100% hit chances 3-4 times so far.

Probably another Wasteland 2 1% chance to jam issue. Unity's default random number generation library is awful, and more experienced Unity devs tend to use alternative libraries for random number generation.

One thing I'm really missing is Marcin Przybyłowicz's soundtrack. The music in the first game was really memorable and unique. The music in this game feels very generic.

 

[Spectacle]

I don't agree with Fanta on the game in general but he is right that the % to hit is not completely accurate. I've missed 100% hit chances 3-4 times so far.

Probably another Wasteland 2 1% chance to jam issue. Unity's default random number generation library is awful, and more experienced Unity devs tend to use alternative libraries for random number generation.

It it's true that sounds like a bug in the game code rather than in the random number library. It shouldn't even need to roll the dice if hit chance is 100%. A "bad" RNG is one that doesn't generate an even and unpredictable spread of numbers. If it were to generate numbers outside of the random range it would be utterly and completely broken, and liable to cause programs to crash. I have a hard time believing any RNG library is quite that bad.

I haven't had any 100% shots miss so far. I kinda suspect user error is the real culprit here.

 

[rusty_shackleford]

Also, Fanta might be playing on the hardest setting,

 

[Tacgnol]

I don't agree with Fanta on the game in general but he is right that the % to hit is not completely accurate. I've missed 100% hit chances 3-4 times so far.

Probably another Wasteland 2 1% chance to jam issue. Unity's default random number generation library is awful, and more experienced Unity devs tend to use alternative libraries for random number generation.

It it's true that sounds like a bug in the game code rather than in the random number library. It shouldn't even need to roll the dice if hit chance is 100%. A "bad" RNG is one that doesn't generate an even and unpredictable spread of numbers. If it were to generate numbers outside of the random range it would be utterly and completely broken, and liable to cause programs to crash. I have a hard time believing any RNG library is quite that bad.

I haven't had any 100% shots miss so far. I kinda suspect user error is the real culprit here.

Yeah I'm assuming the 100% is bullshit and actually rounded up from 99.1% on the UI or some shit. In which case the old Unity random library issue may be rearing its ugly head.

 

[Spectacle]

Yeah I'm assuming the 100% is bullshit and actually rounded up from 99.1% on the UI or some shit. In which case the old Unity random library issue may be rearing its ugly head.

My assumption is that the game actually works fine, and the people reporting missing 100% shots either misclicked or misread the screen.



Do you have any info about those problems with the Unity RNG library??

 

[Tacgnol]

Do you have any info about those problems with the Unity RNG library??

Not anymore, there were several discussions about it across both the Wasteland 2 forums and the Unity dev forums back in 2014.

My memory is that the issue was around the value the Unity RNG library uses as a seed by default.

A common workaround suggested at the time on the Unity dev forums was to use the standard .net random library over the Unity RNG library with the current date/time used as a seed value.

I've got to admit, I've played the game for a few hours now and I've not noticed a 100% shot missing nor any other obvious RNG issues.

 

[fantadomat]

I don't agree with Fanta on the game in general but he is right that the % to hit is not completely accurate. I've missed 100% hit chances 3-4 times so far.

Also, Fanta might be playing on the hardest setting, which has a timer for every mission. I'm playing on Hard (medium setting) and so far only one of my missions had a timer but in other cases there were soft timers for bonus objectives. Not sure if the timer is the only added difficulty on the toughest setting.

If I was playing every mission with a timer, I'd probably hate it too. There are lots of enemies that need to be fully killed in one turn or they will regenerate fully OR swap damage/status effects with one of your healthy characters (never leave a native spellcaster injured, especially with 1 HP). They tend to have enough hit points to take 2-3 hits, depending on which characters hit them. And you basically only get 4 attacks per turn plus a bonus attack for each kill. There are many times where I have one attack left in a turn and I don't use it because the enemy will just regenerate or turn whatever damage I do against me on the AI turn. Explosives cost less AP to use than guns so they can be an equalizer. They aren't strong enough to kill anything but getting partial damage on on a few enemies so that they take less hits to kill is huge.

The AI in this game is really good at times too. More than once, I've gotten down to a lone enemy (generic units but a tougher ones with pain the ass abilities) and they've still managed to pose a threat by managing AP between attack and movement very effectively. Lone enemies will run into buildings and it is a pain in the ass to track them down because you need 2-3 characters in place to hit them in one turn in order to kill them. They will use hit and run tactics while you try to set them up. I can see losing out on timed missions just based on how effectively some enemies can hold out when outnumbered.

Nah man,clearly i play games only on the super easy dif so people that don't play games anymore could throw empty insults lol.

Dude even xcom2 and dungeons of Naheulbeuk had this.

Never played xcom nor have intention of playing any of it is series. I don't remember having that shit in DoN,tho the game was all about tactics and utilizing all the different skills of the vast amount of characters. You can't compare it to this game,since here only the enemy have different abilities. All you could do is move,hide behind cover and shoot or use a single skill. The game lacks on the tactical aspect big time,just get high ground with cover and shoot shit. Gang bang single high danger level targets and move on.



Me shitting on the fucking combat doesn't mean that i dislike the game,i am in mid second chapter and enjoying it for a few hours every day.

Thats just fixed seeding, an anti-savescumming measure that's pretty standard in the genre these days. Theres usually an option to disable it.

So? How does it make it less of a puzzle combat ? There is a predetermined factor in it,thus there is an optimal factor.




I see a lot of little fucks bitching about me critique of the game,yet i don't see you talking about it much. Fuck this place is getting filled with posers,hard to have an actual discussion about games in here this days,sad.

 

[fantadomat]

Also, Fanta might be playing on the hardest setting,

Ice Code Games is a dynamically growing studio, located in Poland

Kwans can't make good games lol.

 

[Roguey]

A lot of the negative reviews on Steam cite how they don't like how its deterministic nature (including deterministic rng ) make it feel more like a puzzle that needs solving than something that can be beaten with flexible tactics. lukaszek what do you say to this?

 

[fantadomat]

Sooo a bit of a spoilers ahead,if you care about getting the joker cards. I will post their locations.

Spoiler

Sooo the first one is in the second chapter,you will get wanted poster for some fuck and you will end up having to provoke him at a poker game in the salone,if you pick the protag you get the joker. The second one is in the third chapter,you need to have the negro at max loyalty then ask him to do exorcism in the devil's den quest,another wanted poster.

 

[Kruno]

Unity random library

This pretty much sums up RNG in games very well. There is no excuse in using dog shit RNG like Mersenne Twister or the old C RNG. PCG and other generators are far more robust and behave as expected. Since this is a Unity made game it looks like someone can "patch" the RNG to use something modern like PCG.

 

[holla_cabezas_de_mierda]

So is this just XCOM: Cowboy Edition or is the core system significantly different somehow? And how come modern games don't copy the JA2 system as much as they do nu-COM's? Too elaborate for today's mainstream audience?

Modern day audience cannot into having AP left over.

its hard to count past 2 or 3

 

[Spectacle]

Unity random library

This pretty much sums up RNG in games very well. There is no excuse in using dog shit RNG like Mersenne Twister or the old C RNG. PCG and other generators are far more robust and behave as expected. Since this is a Unity made game it looks like someone can "patch" the RNG to use something modern like PCG.

What's wrong with Mersenne Twister?

 

[Kruno]

Unity random library

This pretty much sums up RNG in games very well. There is no excuse in using dog shit RNG like Mersenne Twister or the old C RNG. PCG and other generators are far more robust and behave as expected. Since this is a Unity made game it looks like someone can "patch" the RNG to use something modern like PCG.

What's wrong with Mersenne Twister?

Read about RNGs here:
https://www.pcg-random.org/paper.html

 

[Spectacle]

Unity random library

This pretty much sums up RNG in games very well. There is no excuse in using dog shit RNG like Mersenne Twister or the old C RNG. PCG and other generators are far more robust and behave as expected. Since this is a Unity made game it looks like someone can "patch" the RNG to use something modern like PCG.

What's wrong with Mersenne Twister?

Read about RNGs here:
https://www.pcg-random.org/paper.html

Do you think the differences between these RNG algorithms really matter when you're using them for rolling a d100 in a game and not some cryptographic shit? While some generators are statistically better than others, you need some pretty long number sequences to notice any difference.

 

[Kruno]

Unity random library

This pretty much sums up RNG in games very well. There is no excuse in using dog shit RNG like Mersenne Twister or the old C RNG. PCG and other generators are far more robust and behave as expected. Since this is a Unity made game it looks like someone can "patch" the RNG to use something modern like PCG.

What's wrong with Mersenne Twister?

Read about RNGs here:
https://www.pcg-random.org/paper.html

Do you think the differences between these RNG algorithms really matter when you're using them for rolling a d100 in a game and not some cryptographic shit? While some generators are statistically better than others, you need some pretty long number sequences to notice any difference.

You should read the paper above.