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Has there ever been a BIG open world RPG that was also QUALITY?

Discussion in 'General RPG Discussion' started by Sigourn, May 30, 2020.

  1. Sigourn Arcane

    Sigourn
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    I hope your post will enlighten me, then.

    Notice how you've said nothing about Morrowind's game world itself. You've only mentioned:
    1. It's lore (worldbuilding, uniqueness, internal consistency, credibility, originality).
    2. It's world design (art design, regional diversity, exploration-specific design, attention to detail).
    3. It's basic game mechanics (item/world object diversity).
    In other words, your appreciation of Morrowind's world can be summarized as "it's unique, pretty to look at, and there's lots of unique items there". Cool. That says nothing about why should I want to play Morrowind's game world.

    I hope this was a joke.

    Morrowind's interior design is nice. It's certainly not unique when most homes and dungeons look the same. The content diversity is average, as you said, and that's all that matters: quality > quantity. The world, actors, and enemy reactivity is pisspoor, I hope you didn't fall for the "he is House Redoran so he gets a disposition bonus/penalty from me" meme which can easily be negated with a few bribes or Admirations. You can kill the fucking DUKE OF VVARDENFELL and after paying a pathetic fine you can go on your merry way.

    The people who describe Morrowind's reactivity and variety as unparalleled have no idea what reactivity even means.

    Huh, I thought it was smaller than Morrowind's. Still

    No, sorry. You have no idea what quality means if you think having hundreds upon hundreds NPCs that all give the same generic replies to topics, having enemies that are nearly indistinguishable from each other, having regional diversity that makes nearly no difference in gameplay (aside from picking herbs, and how annoying to navigate Molag Amur is), having piss poor weapon and armor progression (not to mention many of the equipment in Morrowind is so terrible only an idiot would use it), makes for more "quality". There are less mechanics to interact with that world, sure: there's no magic or enchantments, but that's par for the course in a post-apocalyptic game semi-grounded on reality.

    Again, your only argument is "there's more stuff in Morrowind than New Vegas", which is something I've already acknowledged, so... good job?

    I don't need to acknowledge this. I've already stated that Morrowind's attempt to be realistic is the biggest issue with the game. You are given hunderds of locations that have no meaning other than to add some logic to the game world. But just because it makes sense doesn't mean Bethesda had the right idea in the first place by making a huge world filled with uninteresting locations.

    Read what I said above. Morrowind may have many assets. The issue with Morrowind is that it barely makes interesting uses of them. What is the use of 500 lightsources when they are mostly used in the same places in the same ways? You could now say to me

    and thus have come to terms with the truth: having 500 lightsources means shit to a game's quality. Fallout didn't have 500 different lightsources and it isn't a much worse game because of it.

    Both addressed above. Morrowind is quantity over quality. The amount of insignificant locations and loot dwarf the amount of significant locations and loot.

    Addressed above. Do yourself a favor and install UI Expansion just to know how wrong you are. It's a neat mod that lets you see, in color, how generic most dialogue in Morrowind is.

    It's interesting how I was able to complete so many quests when I'm running mods that
    1. Slow down my leveling speed by two.
    2. Remove growth of miscellaneous skills.
    3. Increase faction requirements.
    If you know how Morrowind works, you will also know that 1) It is absurdly easy to make money, and 2) It is absurdly easy to abuse trainers to increase skills. Even without those features at my disposal (as I also use mods that nearly remove Daedric equipment from the game, the most renewable source of overpriced equipment, and also vastly nerf selling prices) I was able to join many factions and advance in their ranks...

    Maybe you confused Morrowind with The Age of Decadence? I've heard that game is truly brutal and you can't play a jack of all trades like you can in Morowind.

    I'm sure there are, after all I've explored roughly 60% of the mainland so far.

    That I'm sure there aren't.

    The way you worded this literally applies to Skyrim. As in, literally.

    I think you are simply delusional. I'm not gonna marvel at visiting a new bandit cave just because the layout is slightly different (but ultimately pointless), just because the generic leveled chests are positioned differently, just because the bandits are wearing a variation of the same generic chitin/netch leather/iron/bonemoold/steel equipment, just because the slave pen is located in the right path instead of the left path. I'm not gonna marvel at visiting a new ancestral tomb just because the altars and urns are placed next to the walls instead of rows, just because instead of 5 generic Skeletons I'm facing 5 generic leveled Daedra... and I could go on.

    If you stretch the definition of the word unique to "every single dungeon is different than the other", then sure, all of Morrowind's dungeons are unique. If you use the word "unique" like a reasonable person does (and I'm sure like you do in every day life), then most of Morrowind's dungeons are definitey not unique. After all, every bottle of Coca-Cola is unique. The point is that remembering Morrowind's dungeons is a futile exercise when most give the same experience to the player. (Addamasartus can be easily remembered just because everyone will visit it multiple times over the years)

    Thank you for proving you don't know what you are talking about. Quantity =/= complexity =/= quality. Morrowind has quantity, in spades. Quality? Very little from a gameplay point of view, and as you said earlier yourself: Morrowind has unique lore, it's pretty to look at, and it has lots of shit in it. That's it. That is Morrowind.
     
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  2. Sigourn Arcane

    Sigourn
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    Open Path

    I can't believe you made me do this, but here.

    Alas Ancestral Tomb: tied to Mehrunes Dagon's quest. Even then (as I've explored it), its distinguishing feature is that there's a corpse with a dagger on it.
    Andalen Ancestral Tomb: there's a skill book.
    Andalor Ancestral Tomb: nothing.
    Andas Ancestral Tomb: there's a Redoran Watchman's Helm and a skill book.
    Andavel Ancestral Tomb: nothing.
    Andrano Ancestral Tomb: tied to the main quest. Even then (as I've explored it), its distinguishing feature is that there's a skill book.
    Andrethi Ancestral Tomb: there are vampires here.
    Andules Ancestral Tomb: there's a Telvanni Molecrab Helm and a skill book.
    Aralen Ancestral Tomb: there are vampires here, and a skill book.
    Aran Ancestral Tomb: there's a Dragonscale Tower Shield.
    Arano Ancestral Tomb: there's a Telvanni Cephalopod Helm and a skill book.
    Arenim Ancestral Tomb: tied to a quest, and there's a skill book.
    Arethan Ancestral Tomb: nothing.
    Aryon Ancestral Tomb: there's a skill book.
    Arys Ancestral Tomb: nothing.

    That's all fifteen Ancestral Tombs which begin with A. The "handplaced" loot you were talking about: just skill books, a handful of helmets, and a shield. Structurally (because UESP shows you the layouts of the tombs) there's nothing of note to talk about in these tombs. Just rooms and corridors arranged differently, but because this is Morrowind and not an isometric tactical RPG, it makes no difference whatsoever. Is this your idea of rewarding exploration? Skill books, in a game where leveling up is piss easy as I've mentioned above?

    Earlier I said Morrowind's equipment progression was awful, and its hundred of equipment pieces (or more) meant little to me. You know what meant a lot to me? Getting better armor in Gothic. A game with probably less than a fourth the equipment variety of Morrowind, but where every upgrade masde a massive difference. Quality over quantity.
     
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  3. PorkyThePaladin Arcane

    PorkyThePaladin
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    The OP's argument seems to be self-defeating: are there open world games that are more interesting than the empty feeling Morrowind but you cannot answer with anything smaller than Morrowind...

    Generally speaking, the truly huge open world games tend to have issues with quality of content, because obviously content costs money to create (until Dwarf Fortress is completed, anyway), so it's impossible to create a world the size of Daggerfall with the quality of content of a Gothic or a Deus Ex. But open world games aren't about the size, it's about the freedom and immersion of being able to go anywhere, and not be constrained by zones, loading screens, etc. So Gothic, Gothic 2, Risen 1, New Vegas are excellent open world games, even if they aren't as huge as Daggerfall, Morrowind, etc.

    From among the really big ones, I think Breath of the Wild is by far the best all around, but it requires an exploration focused mindset to enjoy, as it's largely open space. Witcher 3 has great writing and quests for such a large game, but the exploration/world-building parts suffer.
     
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  4. Sigourn Arcane

    Sigourn
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    I didn't think of it as self-defeating. Mostly because the question asks if there is an open world RPG of its similar size that doesn't feel empty. If the question is self-defeating, it's only because there aren't that many RPGs the size of Morrowind. Of course if you answer "Gothic" I will disregard your answer, because it's a much smaller game. I do personally believe you can't have a game the size of Morrowind that is actually great on all accounts. Not because it is impossible, but because no one is willing to put that much effort into a game (considering Skyrim suffers from similar issues and it's one of the best selling RPGs of all time).
     
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  5. Damned Registrations Prestigious Gentleman Furry Weeaboo Nazi Nihilist

    Damned Registrations
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    Hey guise I played through this game 7 times and it's repetitive, are there any GOOD games out there?
    Uh, I don't. If I see a cave or whatever while travelling I'll pop in quickly (or not if I'm interested in something else atm) and if I see it's an egg mine or seems otherwise generic I'll skip it. I don't compulsively clear everything I come across. I do the ones that seem like they might be special, because the entrance is in some weird location or it's name seems important or it has some odd feature by the entrance, etc. Morrowind has way more dungeons than I'll ever want to clear. There's no need to worry about missing one. Do you also pick up every penny you ever see on the ground?

    Guise I played Fallout seven(ty) times and it's gotten repetitive. Are there any QUALITY games out there?

    Ugh, this actually disgusts me. Why don't you just look up a guide of the cool spots and do those instead? You clearly give no fucks about exploring. Here:


    Enjoy your guided tour. It's clearly what you want and expect.


    Procedural content can shit out some really cool shit once in a while though. And the advantage is there's an infinite supply of it, so, again, you can just skip by the crappy parts and enjoy the stuff you like. Of course, there's a big difference in quality of proc gen engines and the systems that go with it to make it easy to explore. But the premise itself is good. Nethack would be a pretty shit game if all the floors were the same every run. Are the hand crafted special levels some of the best in the game? Sure. But being surprised by a randomly generated shop selling an artifact or a figurine of a baby dragon for you to raise as a pet wouldn't be special if it weren't rare.
     
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  6. Dramart Educated

    Dramart
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    How can you think is bad and complete 150 quest you madman get out of here
     
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  7. Sigourn Arcane

    Sigourn
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    Why move the goalposts? I would be facing the same issue if I had only played Morrowind once, because its problem is not repetition through replays, but repetition through repeated content.
    And I'm not asking for a good game... there are plenty of those out there. Just asking if a game attempted something on the scale of Morrowind, but actually succeeded.

    You clearly don't know how Morrowind works, then: most of its caves, eggmines, ancestral tombs and daedric shrines all look the same from the outside. This is not me dissing on the game, this is me calling your bullshit. To prove my point, one of the most unique dungeons I found had the same generic entrance as any other eggmine. I admire your clairvoyant powers, however.

    Get some new material bro.

    Are you stupid? I read the articles after exploring the locations, just to confirm I've indeed seen everything I needed to see about said locations. After all, people talk so much about "oh wooow, I've been to this place 5 times and JUST NOW I noticed the fucking giant altar in the Mages Guild". Yeah, I apologize for expecting Morrowind's dungeons to live to their fame.

    So now we've established:
    • Everyone agrees with me.
    • Those who don't agree can't even explain why I'm wrong without resorting to strawmen.
     
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  8. Damned Registrations Prestigious Gentleman Furry Weeaboo Nazi Nihilist

    Damned Registrations
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    Dude, you literally modded the game so it would give you more generic quests and dungeons than anyone would ever do on a single playthrough. This is the equivalent of me modding Fallout so I have done hundreds of random encounters while travelling and bitching that they're all boring.
     
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  9. Jedi Master Radek Arcane

    Jedi Master Radek
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    I salute your lack of OCD friend :salute:

    For that you would need a human hand discarding what computer had generated and putting in the game only better stuff. And this better stuff would be incoherent, you would have a lot of pieces that doesn't fit anywhere. You would do better having smaller worlds made by hand.
     
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  10. Damned Registrations Prestigious Gentleman Furry Weeaboo Nazi Nihilist

    Damned Registrations
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    It doesn't take clairvoyant powers to explore a cave when the first enemy you see is a daedra instead of a kwama, you moron.
     
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  11. Sigourn Arcane

    Sigourn
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    What...? I've installed no such mods. Did you even read what I posted? All I've tweaked were leveling speed and faction progression speed. If anything without those mods I would have experienced much more shitty content.
     
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  12. Sigourn Arcane

    Sigourn
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    And it takes experience with the game to know that finding a Daedra instead of a kwama is no guarantee you are exploring a good dungeon instead of yet another generic dungeon with Daedras instead of Skeletons. Many Ancestral Tombs are filled with leveled Daedra, and again, all you find is yet another skill book.
     
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  13. Damned Registrations Prestigious Gentleman Furry Weeaboo Nazi Nihilist

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    No, without those mods (and your insane autism) you'd have done like ~5-10 of these caves before becoming a guildmaster, instead of exploring dozens of them. You realize those quests are meant to be generic right? You're running some petty guild errand. They're in there so when you climb the ranks the second time you play through the game you don't have to do literally all of the exact same dungeons a second time. You're not supposed to do all 25 quests for a given guild in a single playthrough.
     
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  14. Falksi Arcane

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    The secret to enjoying most open world games is to not play them as open world games. All the inclusion of an open world has done to modern games is mean it's best to wait at least a year after release, then Google "quests worth playing" or "best quests".

    From those actually out there I think Morrowind offers enough wonder & depth (with a few mods) to be worth playing. I love it, but agree more substance would be nice.

    I know it's wrong to think this, but I actually think Fallout 3 offers enough for a once through experience too.

    Underrail's great if you're more combat & exploration driven than story.

    And, I'd class them as sandbox games, but in terms of popamole games which work in a big open world, then Saints Row 4 & Assassins Creed: Origins are both bang on the money. The game-play's enough fun to make you forget about the Open World.

    In truth the Open World craze is something of a disease, and personally I much prefer the more balanced hub type games such as Baldur's Gate 2, Dragon Age:Origins, Witcher 2, Mass Effect 1 etc.
     
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  15. Sigourn Arcane

    Sigourn
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    So you are telling me I'm not meant to experience the game's content? This is some next level cope, just one level below "just don't do the College of Winterhold as a barbarian bro" retards use to justify the removal of faction requirements.
     
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  16. Sigourn Arcane

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    I fully agree. The defintion of "hub type" may vary from person to person, but I always thought of Fallout as one such game: you move from point of interest to point of interest, e.g. from village to village, from cave to cave, instead of having to roam endless wastes for the ocassional raider camp and boring ruined building. This means each developer can focus on the locations that they absolutely wanted to include, over the locations they needed to include in order for the world to be realistic. Fallout didn't need to shower the map with 100 boring caves. It is obvious that such caves exist. Same with ruined buildings. Same with raider camps. Instead they focused on the important ones. And because of that they are much more memorable.
     
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  17. Damned Registrations Prestigious Gentleman Furry Weeaboo Nazi Nihilist

    Damned Registrations
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    Not 600 hours of it you fucking lunatic.
     
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  18. Sigourn Arcane

    Sigourn
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    I don't have 600 hours into this playthrough, however. I must have 100 at most. You would have a point if I was talking about how bored I am of doing quests I've done in previous playthroughs, but this is not the case (particularly because I've experienced quite a bit of new content). I'm talking about how repetitive the content offered is.

    If you do not see this is a problem, I invite you to leave. It's clear that what I consider an issue isn't an issue to you, because your argument boils down to "just don't experience the content". But I want to experience the content, because if Bethesda added it, then they must have thought it was necessary. And if they thought it was necessary, I'm in my right to say they were wrong.
     
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  19. Damned Registrations Prestigious Gentleman Furry Weeaboo Nazi Nihilist

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    Games like Morrowind are like a buffet. It's got a bit of stuff everyone will like, a bunch of crap almost nobody will like, and a bunch of crap that some, but not most people will like.

    You are eating the entire buffet and complaining not all of it is your favourite.
     
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  20. Jasede Prestigious Gentleman Arcane Patron

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    Damned Registrations
    Thanks for the video link! I didn't find half of the things in that video. Makes me love the game even more.
     
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  21. Sigourn Arcane

    Sigourn
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    Damned Registrations I've just looked at the title of the video you posted.
    No. I don't care about finding unique items. I care about getting an unique experience. My criticism regarding New Vegas' dungeons is that Obsidian thought you can turn the shittiest cave into a rewarding cave just by placing an unique item at the end of it. It isn't my idea of good dungeon design, it isn't my idea of giving the player a good experience, but if you think adding a random OP item at the end of a dungeon means it is worth going through it, then may as well make a dungeon made up of one room with the item right there on an urn... quite similar to how Samarys Ancestral Tomb (and Mentor's Ring) works, actually...
     
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  22. luj1 You're all shills

    luj1
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    FYI this guy is all over Morrowind discord where he is riding dicks of modders, before coming here and lying about the game (copy pasted dungeons and Skyrim-like loot). I'm sure he is mentally ill.
     
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  23. luj1 You're all shills

    luj1
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    Casting levitate and finding a Daedric helm on a fucking ledge 10 meters up in a grotto is a unique experience. Discovering a sunken shrine underwater by merely following non-journal rumors is a unique experience. Finding a dungeon entrance behind a waterfall in a tomb or meeting a projection of a god on a random overhang in a cave is a unique experience. Copy pasted? You are insane.
     
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  24. Sigourn Arcane

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    What would "riding dicks of modders" mean? You sound like you are mentally ill yourself.
    And yeah, sorry: Morrowind's dungeons may not be copy pasted, but they may as well be. And the loot is very Skyrim-like. People just have bad memory and think every Morrowind dungeon seems to be the pinnacle of dungeon design and handplaced loot, when you are lucky if the best thing you get out of a dungeon is a handplaced skill book (the ability of Morrowind level designers).

    Woah, four dungeons out of hundreds upon hundreds...
    For your information:
    • 92 Ancestral Tombs.
    • 92 caves.
    • 36 daedric ruins.
    • 44 mines.
    For a total of 264. Ironically the sunken shrine you are mentioning is the best location in all of Morrowind, IMO, which is like saying all of New Vegas' quests are great just by posting Beyond the Beef, which is easily the most complex quest in the game.

    So yeah. Good job on that less than 2% of amazing dungeons. I'll help you out: there's also that cool burial southwest of the Urshilaku Burial Caverns with lots of silver daggers and the Eidolon's Ward hung in the wall.
     
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  25. luj1 You're all shills

    luj1
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    No its not 4 dungeons, you are just retarded.

    It's literally a statue surrounded by sand (?). If you can call that "the best location in all of Morrowind" then there is something wrong with you. The truth is, throughout this whole thread you have no idea what you're talking about.
     
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