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Hearthstone

Grunker

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Something along the same lines occurred to me earlier, but I didn't mention it for simplicity's sake—aside from the 70% bit, if you already own two/one of every single available card (except goldens), and you play Arena, and you furthermore win 6 games on average, then a fair portion of your return will be cards and dust. For an Arena-only player (I realize there are relatively few of these in reality), those are totally useless, and they'd have to hit rank 9 or 10 and receive the random gold reward absolutely every single time in order to play as much Arena as desired. Otherwise they'd either have to pay money, or finish daily quests and play Constructed. The one-off rewards surely run out eventually).

Maybe I'm missing something? It costs 150 gold to register for Arena, and the maximum realistic gold-per-day amount is something like 160, for a juicy daily and 30 wins in Play mode. A reasonable average game time estimate is something like ten minutes (I've Googled over a dozen forum threads/articles to see what players have to say on that issue), meaning it would take five hours to earn that additional 100 gold.

The reason I'm harping on this is that it's all well and good that Arena doesn't require you to have collected cards, but it does seem to require you to either pay a fee or "grind" Constructed and quests, which I'd guess is faster if you have better cards.

I'm not sure I see your point. The game is not designed to allow you to play endless free arena. It's designed to let you run out of gold and then pay to play more. Thousands of people do exactly that. I don't understand what you're asking for. The business-model might not be right for you or me(I certainly don't spend money), but we're not the target group at all.

I do however agree that there is little reward in playong arena once you go infinite, but so few people achieve that anyway. Except for turning your collection into pure gold cards, which I believe not even Trump has managed. It's a fucking atrocity though - and such a simple thing to implement - that if you have a gold version of a card in Your collection, you don't get to play with that in Arena if you draft it. So all the cool animations are non-existant in arena, which is all I play. That sucks, 'cause it's such a cool concept.
 
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Grunker

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wait, lord of the arena is "poor"? i really didn't understand this game i guess

With Taunt, you want a big butt relative to power. I.e. high health, low attack. Your opponent will need multiple cards to get past such a minion. With lord of the arena, you invest 6 into a failed vanilla test (boulderfist ogre is a 6/7 at the same cost) and all you get is taunt on a minion likely to die to a single spell or minion at that point, thus not doing what taunt needs to: buying time or turning the tables when you're behind :)
 

Blaine

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Grab the Codex by the pussy
I'm not sure I see your point. The game is not designed to allow you to play endless free arena. It's designed to let you run out of gold and then pay to play more.

There's no point other than expressing distaste. Punished financially for losing, and punished financially wanting to play too much even if you do well, is not a terribly appetizing combo. Time is money, so it's the same either way. As for ranked and so on, you can't even chat with your opponents, kek. So many classic TCG elements—table talk, socializing, trading cards (heh), player demographics other than "close friends" and "everyone on the planet," inability to know and/or remember what decks someone who's not a friend runs—are just missing, in exchange for convenience, accessibility, and the ability to play anytime, anywhere. I'm not sure if it's a worthwhile trade.

Fortunately for me, I like constructing decks. Again, if there are enough Codexers willing to play Duels on a regular basis, I might give it a go. Anyone?
 

Grunker

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There's no point other than expressing distaste. Punished financially for losing, and punished financially wanting to play too much even if you do well, is not a terribly appetizing combo. Time is money, so it's the same either way. As for ranked and so on, you can't even chat with your opponents, kek. So many classic TCG elements—table talk, socializing, trading cards (heh), player demographics other than "close friends" and "everyone on the planet," inability to know and/or remember what decks someone who's not a friend runs—are just missing, in exchange for convenience, accessibility, and the ability to play anytime, anywhere. I'm not sure if it's a worthwhile trade.

Fortunately for me, I like constructing decks. Again, if there are enough Codexers willing to play Duels on a regular basis, I might give it a go. Anyone?

What can I say, see my other posts: I agree with you that the game is too tightly and narrowly designed to be called "good" or variations thereof. My opinion remsins that it's the best we've got save for MMDoC, and that doesn't have a limited format. If you're mostly into constructed, you shoudl give that a spin. It's p. good.
 

Grinolf

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For an Arena-only player (I realize there are relatively few of these in reality), those are totally useless, and they'd have to hit rank 9 or 10 and receive the random gold reward absolutely every single time in order to play as much Arena as desired. Otherwise they'd either have to pay money, or finish daily quests and play Constructed. The one-off rewards surely run out eventually.
What are you talking about? Infinity arena starts with 7 wins, not 9 or 10. And with proper gold stockpile one don't need make it every single time, but rather have an average 7 win result. Also one arena run is something like 1-1,5 hours long, so play it multiple times per day should be problematic for the most people.

Also, idonthavetimeforthiscrap, you're right that you should be conservative. Overcommiting in Hearthstone is the #1 noobtrap. So many safely won games are lost because each and every Hero has a way to turn overcommital into a game loss.
Well it mostly depends on one's enemy class. Overcommiting against a druid isn't is pretty safe as long, as he can't do a serious damage with swipe or starfall. It is a main weakness of this class. Priest and Rogue have some very good board clearing combos, but risk to see them on arena is minimal. But from other hand, one definitely should overcommit against mage or Paladin.
 

J1M

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I'm not sure I see your point. The game is not designed to allow you to play endless free arena. It's designed to let you run out of gold and then pay to play more.

There's no point other than expressing distaste. Punished financially for losing, and punished financially wanting to play too much even if you do well, is not a terribly appetizing combo. Time is money, so it's the same either way. As for ranked and so on, you can't even chat with your opponents, kek. So many classic TCG elements—table talk, socializing, trading cards (heh), player demographics other than "close friends" and "everyone on the planet," inability to know and/or remember what decks someone who's not a friend runs—are just missing, in exchange for convenience, accessibility, and the ability to play anytime, anywhere. I'm not sure if it's a worthwhile trade.

Fortunately for me, I like constructing decks. Again, if there are enough Codexers willing to play Duels on a regular basis, I might give it a go. Anyone?
The 10 gold for 3 wins is a trivial amount of total gold earned. The majority of it comes from the daily quests, which can also be completed in the arena.

Even if you only win 3 times on average per arena run, you will spend 150g -> get 50g back + a pack of cards + complete a daily quest for ~50g. Once you factor in the quest gold, it is much easier to "go infinite" by playing one arena per day. As mentioned above, that's something like 90 minutes of gameplay a day.

It is not exactly unreasonable for them to want some money if you want to binge and play arena 4 hours every day.
 

Cowboy Moment

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Grunker pls. It doesn't take that long to adjust to this game's mechanics. When I began playing, I used to make all sorts of bad decisions based on my intuition, developed by playing control decks in MtG for many years. But it really isn't difficult to figure out the kinds of general rules of thumb that apply in most situations, like your "trade when you can control the circumstances" thing.

But beyond that, you can only really make long-term decisions in a game with limited information by understanding the possibility space of what is unknown to you. Bringing up the classic "Who's the Beatdown?" article is all nice and well, but that article specifically talked about constructed, and for a very good reason. Even in a booster draft, you at least have an idea what other players can have in their decks. But in Hearthstone Arena, there's literally nothing. How am I supposed to know who's the beatdown? If I get a well-balanced deck as Mage, and draw an aggressive hand against a Hunter, should I play with the assumption that I'm the beatdown, or he is? What if we're both at 3-0? What if we're both at 6-0?

There's no real answer to this question, maybe there's a guideline at best, but without knowing what the opponent can have in his hand, no strategic decision can be made beyond the ones which are literally forced on you by the opponent. If he opens up with aggression you can't match, you play defensively, which is the only thing you can do. Otherwise, how do you decide whether you should try to build tempo or card advantage?

I'll give you a real life example from yesterday. I was playing Rogue, intentionally drafted an aggressive deck with a lot of 2 and 3 drops, two deadly poisons, two perdition blades, a bunch of cheap removal, including two betrayals. I also had Onyxia and Baron Geddon in terms of board-turning stuff I could stall for. So, I play against this pally, we're both 8-1. It goes like this: I got first, he does nothing on his turn, and then on my second turn, my hand is as follows: Ooze, Deadly Poison, Harvest Golem, Spell Breaker, Backstab. What do you think is the better play? Just dropping the ooze and proceeding with golem and spell breaker on the subsequent turns, or saving the ooze for the inevitable truesilver champion, and instead using the hero power, setting up for a deadly poison later if necessary?

I honestly don't know. It depends on who's the beatdown, except there's no way to know. I ended up playing the Ooze and winning through pressure, but my opponent didn't have the truesilver champion. Maybe in general it's better to save it?

I generally reflect on every lost game, trying to figure out if there was a way for me to win. And in most cases there really wasn't, or maybe there was a way to survive two more turns if I did something extremely counterintuitive. I either lose due to very obvious errors I make because I usually don't pay attention when playing Hearthstone, or as a simple consequence of the cards both me and my opponent drew through the course of the game.

For the record, I average a little over 5 wins currently, and I feel like the problem lies in my deckbuilding, that I still think of mana curves as they were in MtG. Edit: And I think I also mulligan really poorly.
 
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Metro

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This is all very true. I can't count the number of times I've seen bad Arena players go for my face and ignore my minions, get me down to like 10-15 health... and then ultimately lose because they conceded board control. It sometimes works for hunters and mages who can do consistent damage that bypasses taunts but the success to arena is controlling the board. And, as mentioned, don't over commit by throwing all of your cards out there -- especially against mage or hunters... or really any class that has strong AoE.
 

Blaine

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J1M
You're talking to Supreme Space Marshall Blaine McMoneybags here, the opposite of Metro. I spent $500 to just to get a Codex troll mask into Starbound (which I may come to regret in the future, but that's how it goes). I can't afford to do that sort of thing every day or even every week, but the point is that if I enjoy a game, then I'm willing to spend money on it. I'm always willing to pay $1 per hour of playtime, and I imagine I'd get hundreds of hours out of Hearthstone if I like it. I'm being pressured into playing Terraria and Civ V (ugh) by a gaggle of Steam friends at the moment, though.

In fairness, too, TCGs have been practically "free-to-play" (cost of a starter deck) for over two decades. Of course, in Hearthstone, your cards exist solely on Blizzard's servers and your Mox Sapphire and Black Lotus will always be worth $0, unless you sell your account I suppose.

Trouble is, I need people to Duel with no matter what, and preferably high-quality monocled individuals such as Codexers, except for the ones I don't like of course.
 

J1M

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J1M
You're talking to Supreme Space Marshall Blaine McMoneybags here, the opposite of Metro. I spent $500 to just to get a Codex troll mask into Starbound (which I may come to regret in the future, but that's how it goes). I can't afford to do that sort of thing every day or even every week, but the point is that if I enjoy a game, then I'm willing to spend money on it. I'm always willing to pay $1 per hour of playtime, and I imagine I'd get hundreds of hours out of Hearthstone if I like it. I'm being pressured into playing Terraria and Civ V (ugh) by a gaggle of Steam friends at the moment, though.

In fairness, too, TCGs have been practically "free-to-play" (cost of a starter deck) for over two decades. Of course, in Hearthstone, your cards exist solely on Blizzard's servers and your Mox Sapphire and Black Lotus will always be worth $0, unless you sell your account I suppose.

Trouble is, I need people to Duel with no matter what, and preferably high-quality monocled individuals such as Codexers, except for the ones I don't like of course.
:lol:

Near the start of this thread a bunch of codexers shared their battle.net tags. I'm sure if you posted yours you'd have a bunch of invites.
 

Metro

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Where are my card packs, Grand Admiral? If you do buy a bunch of packs, do a stream of the openings, yo.
 

Grinolf

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There's no real answer to this question, maybe there's a guideline at best, but without knowing what the opponent can have in his hand, no strategic decision can be made beyond the ones which are literally forced on you by the opponent.

But you do know, what cards they could have in the hand. In case of Paladin it is his high quality cards, like Equality, Argent Protector, Peacekeeper, Truesilver, Blessing of Kings, Concecration - all of them are commons and rares, so he had a high chances to draw them. And some neutral minions that have a good synergy with his tokens. And then further in the arena you are, than more of them you could expect. They also potentially can have Tirion, which is arguably the best legendary in the game. But chances to draw him is a very small, so it is not worth much to play around him. But if they happen to have him, then you probably screwed.
Further chances of them having particular card are increased or decreased depending on how they play or how they don't play. First thing require some experience to know, but second is a pretty simple. If your enemy had a good opportunity to play some particular card, but played instead an inferior one, then he most likely don't have it. Or he is just a greedy bastard, who want to save it for the better opportunity/want to trick you.

In your case I probably would try to save OOze, ecpecially if you have a golem a backstab. Because if he would drop a minion with 1 HP/create token, you could kill it with dagger, if he drop a minion with 2 HP, you could kill it with backstab, and 3 HP creatures could be killed with backstab + dagger. And in all cases you have enough mana to play a harvest golem. and it is worth to save an Ooze against Paladins and Warriors unless you really don't have anything other to play, but a situation requires, that you should play something. And there is also an option to try ave a dagger for a deadly poison, because it is almost impossible for you enemy to trade against golem favorable at this point of the game.
 
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Grunker

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But beyond that, you can only really make long-term decisions in a game with limited information by understanding the possibility space of what is unknown to you. Bringing up the classic "Who's the Beatdown?" article is all nice and well, but that article specifically talked about constructed, and for a very good reason.

Bitch please: http://lrcast.com/limited-resources-239-role-assignment/

Just because you don't know in advance like in constructed, doesn't mean you have to analyze the game as it goes on. All these things mean less and are easier to decipher in Hearthstone because it is a simpler and more straightforward game, but that doesn't mean all players make immaculate decisions always, like the infinite players indeed do most of the time.

Anyway, explain to me then why players are infinite even when they draft the same decks that 6/7-3 players do? I watch Trump's stream plenty, his decks are 1:1 like mine. There are so few cards in Hearthstone that once you got the quality down and you know which mana curves are best, drafting is literally on auto-pilot. All that is left is play decisions. Yet Trump has 5000 gold in the bank, and I still run out after 3-4 drafts per day, maybe a bit more if I'm doing well.
 

Grunker

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Blaine: If you want to spend cash, and you want to play constructed, plz try out MMDoC. Maybe you don't like it, I dunno, but it's a much better game than Hearthstone.

Anyway, if you want to play with 'dex bros, share your gamer tag and the requests will start flooding in, I'm sure. I only play arena, so...
 

Blaine

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Blaine: If you want to spend cash, and you want to play constructed, plz try out MMDoC. Maybe you don't like it, I dunno, but it's a much better game than Hearthstone.

Shame you're so attached to draft/sealed play. I looked into this, and the consensus of randomly-Googled experts seems to be that DoC's format isn't conducive to draft/sealed play.

I had a Devil of a time trying to find their cash shop prices, though. I Googled for several minutes, then thought to resort to Images to see the actual shop screen: $100 US for 6,000 seals, enough to buy 768 cards with two Serious Boxes. Card acquisition is a lot more complicated than HS currently, more like MtG in the early days, and I won't be buying anything until I have more of the cards memorized and know what the fuck is going on.

Worked my way through the tutorial, we'll see.
 

Grunker

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Shame you're so attached to draft/sealed play. I looked into this, and the consensus of randomly-Googled experts seems to be that DoC's format isn't conducive to draft/sealed play.

Like I said, it's the only reason I don't play it over Hearthstone. Limited formats is all I play, in MtG as well.

Card acquisition is a lot more complicated than HS currently

Yes and no. You get gold (free currency) very fast, and you get a bunch of free seals (pay-for-money) as well. Make sure to complete all the easy achievements for extra loot as well. Reddit has a site dedicated to telling you what keys for free loot are still active. Use all that to buy boxes. Open boxes, get Altar of Wishes currency along with cards. That currency can be spend on SPECIFIC cards you need.

When I played, scraping together top tier decks was actually faster than in Hearthstone for the first 20 levels (your profile levels rather than your heroes).
 

Blaine

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I suspect you've been away from DoC for a while, Grunker.

https://solforgegame.com/forum/sugg...esson-from-might-and-magic-duel-of-champions/
http://www.reddit.com/r/duelofchamp...ositive_turnaround_since_the_update_2_months/
http://www.reddit.com/r/duelofchamp...rding_to_the_stats_its_looking_really_bad_at/ (and many of the responses in that thread)
etc.

What really got me though was this, because I noticed it myself very early on in the tutorial:

http://puu.sh/9Z4qD/d35147977a.png

Dropped. As with nearly all genres these days, especially online games and particularly free-to-play titles, it looks like online customizable card games are a choice between a shit sandwich, a cum cake, and a piss and tonic. Hearthstone has simplistic deckbuilding and streamlined mechanics, DoC has some economical and technical issues (and a small community), and Magic is certainly bloated as FUCK these days in terms of cards in play, sets, and new rule creep. I only played from 1993-1997. I missed seventeen years.

I'm looking at SolForge now. Its community is nearly as large as DoC, it has drafted play, and apparently its economy doesn't suck. It must be shit in some way though; they always are.
 
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King Arthur

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The latest expansion for DoC made card acquisition about farming daily quests. They give you three quests a day, and they are most often "win X games with Y faction". They require several hours to complete and can be hard for noobs to do, because noobs don't always have enough cards to make a deck for every faction.

Seals can no longer be earned through free play. Gold prices have increased significantly, while gold supply has only increased a small bit.

The fanbase has decreased dramatically since the last expansion. Steam statistics showed an 80% drop in the number of active players prior.
 

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