Hearts of Iron IV - The Ultimate WWII Strategy Game

[Average Manatee]

What is the point of having animated models in these games, anyways?

http://store.steampowered.com/dlc/203770/

 

[The Brazilian Slaughter]

Wake me up when Pdox has a HOI game with the same modding power of Hearts of Iron Darkest Hour.

 

[AwesomeButton]

The only Paradox game I distinctly dislike is EU4. I'm highly cautious about HoI4 because Paradox just released EU4 and can't stop talking about it. And yes, I want their games to be good because I know they can make good games.

This guy is one of the few in this thread who have set their expectations right.

The hype says: Paradox is a by-gamers-for-gamers company, modder-friendly, niche audience
Th reality is that these days are gone. Paradox is after the money now, they have one of the most disgusting dlc policies, and if you used to be part of the niche audience before they hit the big time, they don't give a shit about you anymore. They have gone mainstream, and they like it there. Guys like you are now tolerated, but their ideas for how the game should play are ignored with a polite silence.

Do you like grand strategy and historical games? The hype says: buy EU and HoI titles.
The facts are that when you need a historical grand strategy game you don't go to for these games, you go for For the Glory and Darkest Hour. Both of these were mods before they were released as games.

After releasing EUIV Paradox have made it clear they are into and aiming for a Rome II - grade of historicity. What's worse, the modders that used to make historical mods have moved on as well. So in my opinion only casual olayers will go for their games from now on, and whoever does should know they should expect a casual game. Which I think is sad.

 

[Humppaleka]

Except that their DLC policy is harmless. The tons of visual DLC they have don't affect the gameplay at all, so why should you even consider them unless you really like watching 3D models? If they had major content spread out on 150 DLCs, now that would be bad.

 

[AwesomeButton]

Except that their DLC policy is harmless. The tons of visual DLC they have don't affect the gameplay at all, so why should you even consider them unless you really like watching 3D models? If they had major content spread out on 150 DLCs, now that would be bad.

When I say DLC I mean all downloadable content, not just additional models, although milking people with 3EUR models DLC is something I dislike as a practice, it's a market, if you don't like the deal, don't buy it, of course.

The real problem comes with the gameplay-transforming addition of features with dlc that
1. should have been in the core game, but how would they milk us otherwise
2. for which players are charged as much as half the original game's price, which is a bit steep,
3. they create a nightmare for modders (thank you for being mod frendly paradox, you profiteerig fucks) who have to make their mods compatible with the latest patch which has auto-applied itself to most of the player base thanks to glorious Steam
4. Modders are not being given any heads-up whatsoever by Paradox about what they should expect in the next DlC and when it's expected, so that people can withold updating their mods or plan how to use the new features.
5. The end result is that modding becomes more trouble than it's worth and with EUIV it's already just a brooch on Paradox' shoulder.

I don't expect this situation and this policy will improve with HoI IV, if anything, I expect it to get worse, because WWII is a historical period which will attract even more casual gamers than Modernity (15th-19th c.). Paradox will still use "rich modder's community" as a PR point only now the mods will be changing minute details instead of rebalancing and making overhauls like they used to do with HoI2. And this modding community sure needs to be "rich" if each 6 months you charge them 28euros for a new expansion which is obligatory for you if you want your mod to be compatible with most players' game.

Everything that happened is Paradox hired another company (if I'm not mistaken) to rewrite their engine's graphics, this attracted a small (by industry standards, yet big by Paradox standards at the time) casual crowd to CKII, and they finally got the money rolling in, which set them on a course of "more flashy graphics, dumb down gameplay and fuck depth and immersion". They are into making money now, not into making games.

 

[Humppaleka]

Ah, I can certainly see your point now. Slightly off-topic, I noticed that Steam now has a "DLC-selector" on the page of the game, wonder if that let's you roll back to a state before the DLC. This of course won't help if it overwrites your mod files all the time.

 

[AwesomeButton]

Humppaleka You can turn off DLCs and there is also a procedure explained on the forums on how to roll back patches. But it's a chore for the player to do. The root of the problem is in Paradox switching to this monetization model where they "support the game" (read - milk players) for years with periodic "Expansions" (additions of new mechanics, and also otherwise moddable changes such as more provinces, events). These regular rebalances and expansions are destroying the serious part of the modding community which has to constantly update their mods to work with the latest cash grab dlc.

What really rustles my jimmies is how, after I've paid 40EUR for the base game, I'm expected, a couple of months later to pay another 20-something (about half the price of the full game) for the fabulous features of special mechanics for amerindians plus new events. Events! The stuff that modders can write and if anything should have shipped with the original 40-euro costing game. A few months later - it's Res Publica, then a few months more - Wealth of Nations, then Art of War, and now I'm expecting El Dorado...

Just look at the list: http://www.eu4wiki.com/Downloadable_content Especially at the release dates. This isn't efforts to improve the game, it's efforts to squeeze the players. Squeezing the players is the only real strategy left in Paradox, lol. Else they would have released ONE expansion containing all this stuff, one year after release (like most companies used to do in the times before digital delivery, and iTunes btw). But then the profits would have been immesurably smaller, right. Fuck them.

And thse are just the "Expansions", I'm not even talking about the cosmetic/flavor stuff, which I really don't mind. As much as I've been a fan of Paradox games, I remember EUII being an excellent game in its 1.9 version and none of this shit was happening. Somehow it managed to be a good game without all the optional content. That's what I mean when I say that they are after the money now, the shift in their monetization model is undeniable. And as much as I've enjoyed their games, I feel like I'm being taken for a fool in EUIV. Not to mention it's radically lowered base difficulty.

Another thing that put me off in EUIV (and together with the graphics which were uglier than EUII, made me refuse to play EUIII at all) was how Paradox took the flavor and the feeling I'm playing a unique country away from the game. I enjoy playing a game set in this period in large part because of the immersion and the chance to learn about the country I'm playing. Right now EUIV single player feels like multiplayer with bots to me. They kind of remedied this with the stuff they added with the... 20EUR "expansions" like additionally different mechanics for republics but it's not enough, and without country-level scripting I don't believe it's possible to make the player feel the country he is playing is unique.

So I'm quite disappointed with losing Paradox as a company that makes my kind of games. And I'm pretty sure they will repeat the "success" with HoIIV and even "improve" upon it. I'd be very happy to turn out wrong, but that will hardly happen. I'd have been thankful for just Darkest Hour with improved graphics (as a bonus, and seriously, what was wrong with DH as game rules?) and as accurate OOBs as possible, but we know that will not happen. So I advise you to brace yourselves for a dumbed down version of HoI3 with flashy visuals. Something like a "Dragon Age Inquisition" of Paradox's games.

 

[Destroid]

Ah, I can certainly see your point now. Slightly off-topic, I noticed that Steam now has a "DLC-selector" on the page of the game, wonder if that let's you roll back to a state before the DLC. This of course won't help if it overwrites your mod files all the time.

My housemate plays EU4 and tells me you can select specific patches you want to use with some steam feature (especially vital since patching sometimes breaks saves), but most of the playerbase won't be bothered using something like that.

 

[Average Manatee]

Except that their DLC policy is harmless. The tons of visual DLC they have don't affect the gameplay at all, so why should you even consider them unless you really like watching 3D models? If they had major content spread out on 150 DLCs, now that would be bad.

It's not harmless if the potential for DLC models is the reason we can't have counters. Make no mistake that the bean counters understand this.

 

[Renegen]

I still trust Paradox, they said in the video that it's a more complex game than CK2 or EU4 and they're just bringing improvements. The reality is that for all the time I sank into HOI3, I never finished the game as Germany because it was simply too tedious. I finished the game many times with other countries, even including Japan because the Pacific war is fun but not Germany. The game wasn't playable, it was a collection of features that sort of worked but didn't encourage you to go to the end and reach a satisfying strategic conclusion.

We didn't ask for a rework of air power but it was for me one of the most frustrating systems and I'm glad it's changed, we didn't ask for a rework of resources but it was kind of lame, I have high hope for the new factory system. The OOBs were awesome but more from a historical point of view than gameplay, it was hard to really tell the effect of all your shuffling; the new system will still have generals to assign they'll just be fewer of them and likely more clear in what they bring. Have they talked about supply? It's not very sexy so maybe they'll save it for later but it needs to be improved too and I bet they have something cooked up.

Almost every change Paradox is making is telling me that they're good designers and have identified the major problems with HOI3 or have listened to the community, the only thing I'm worried is that we'll lose the feel of assigning individual divisions across the map. I still need to feel that but given how much of the core gameplay is positioning your divisions I think it will be maintained. The DLC policy I don't care, HOI3 was shit when it first came out and many were burned so this is an improvement right off the bat. On some level you also have to believe DLCs are demand driven and those shiny new models would only get made if someone paid money for it, do you really think for example the producer of CK2 would've insisted the game wouldn't ship out if enough songs for Muslims didn't exist? So the fact the models finance MY game is all good.

 

[sser]

I'm sure they'll introduce counters in a patch further down the road. They just gotta sell some DLC first. Hell, maybe even the counters will be DLC

 

[KoolNoodles]

I'm sure they'll introduce counters in a patch further down the road. They just gotta sell some DLC first. Hell, maybe even the counters will be DLC

HAVE YOU EVER WANTED TO PLAY OLD-SCHOOL LIKE YOUR GRANDPA DID IN W W 2?

WELL NOW'S YOUR CHANCE WITH OUR CLASSIC COUNTERS DLC!

 

[Turisas]

Battle exercises are actually potentially pretty interesting as a mechanic.

It should be balanced by lowering your troop morale. Which then can be countered by raping & pillaging, which increases it greatly.

 

[Spectacle]

Battle exercises are actually potentially pretty interesting as a mechanic.

It should be balanced by lowering your troop morale. Which then can be countered by raping & pillaging, which increases it greatly.

If anything exercises should increase morale. Few things kill morale faster than sitting in the barracks doing nothing.

 

[Turisas]

If anything exercises should increase morale. Few things kill morale faster than sitting in the barracks doing nothing.

I take it you've never been in the army, then.

 

[Corporate_Jew_Master]

In wartime your mindset would be different. Imagine chilling in your camp doing fuckall and suddenly the order is given for you to go to the front. After a period of inertia, how confident in yourself would you feel? Keeping the manboons jumping on their feet on (soon to be broken) peacetime can be beneficial in that case.

 

[Spectacle]

If anything exercises should increase morale. Few things kill morale faster than sitting in the barracks doing nothing.

I take it you've never been in the army, then.

You're wrong about that Soldiers will bitch and whine about exercises, but they increase confidence and self esteem. Long term boredom and pointless busywork in camp however can turn a unit into a mess.

 

[Turisas]

Long term boredom and pointless busywork in camp however can turn a unit into a mess.

Yeah but what about all the amusing hijinks and shenanigans! Those're what truly weld a unit together.

 

[omega21]

That said, if you keep the unit on the bounce continuously it wears guys out really fast. It might even cause training deaths.

In wartime your mindset would be different. Imagine chilling in your camp doing fuckall and suddenly the order is given for you to go to the front. After a period of inertia, how confident in yourself would you feel? Keeping the manboons jumping on their feet on (soon to be broken) peacetime can be beneficial in that case.

This helped cause the Russian Revolution, the Tsar decided to deploy his personal Guards division to the front and they suddenly realized that throwing in their lot with the bread rioters wouldn't be that bad if that saved them from having to fight the Krauts...

 

[curry]

If anything exercises should increase morale. Few things kill morale faster than sitting in the barracks doing nothing.

I take it you've never been in the army, then.

You're wrong about that Soldiers will bitch and whine about exercises, but they increase confidence and self esteem. Long term boredom and pointless busywork in camp however can turn a unit into a mess.

All those rättisulkeiset sure killed morale quicker than anything when I was in the army.

 

[Makabb]

 

[omega21]

those clouds look like shit someone sprinkled flour over the monitor

 

[Reject_666_6]

It's a bit old, but since it hasn't been mentioned here yet:

Anybody else excited for the alt-historical options they offer with the National Foci?

I like the choice between Axis Japan and Axis China. Imagine the events on the Chinese side, the hordes of chopstick militias trained by Rommel himself and outfitted with MP 40s and Nazi-subsidised infrastructure, so they can make use of lend-leased trucks and Panzers. It'll make for a proper challenge playing as the Sovjets on the other side of this unclean alliance; and Mao's time to shine. Room for Red Japan maybe?

It also seems like there are several options for a [Diplomatic] Axis expansion before the eventual Barbarossa or Anglo-American invasions. Here's hoping for a Befriend Kwa option.

Yeah, Paradongs have always had a few alt-history decisions (Unholy Alliance, etc), but it's good to see these options getting equal shelf space with the historical path for once.

 

[Makabb]

Idealy they should make the game so as you play a minor country you can build your arsenal pre-war to be able to face bigger countries.

 

[Reject_666_6]

Yes, sadly that's always been low on Paradox's priorities. Minors got shafted pretty hard in vanilla HoI3.