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Hearts of Iron IV - The Ultimate WWII Strategy Game

mondblut

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Yes, sadly that's always been low on Paradox's priorities.

They are called "minors" for a reason, lol.

Face it, HoI is all about being literally Hitler, and that's what makes it good. Any other country being technically playable is just to obscure the fact. We should rename it to Hitlers of Iron while we're there.
 

sser

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Yeah, dunno the point of playing minors in HoI. Yugoslavia maybe one of the better exceptions to that, but generally speaking it's about The Bad Guys, or maybe America if you enjoy fighting two very different kinds of wars at the same time. I skipped the third game, but in the second I got most of my fun from playing the later scenarios as Germany. I tried my hand at some minors but it's just like what's the fucking point. Like you got tickets to the front row to a concert, but intentionally go for the nosebleeds with the rafters blocking your view? Bleh. I think it stems from other Paradox games where wars are not central, the timeline is way longer, and reversing history with some nobody-country/person is a bit more possible/plausible even.
 

Makabb

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Anybody else excited for the alt-historical options they offer with the National Foci?

Yes but i would go even further, drop the national focus as from what i see it kind of still limits you and just create alliances via diplomacy, so you could for example play fascist brazil, ally with UK and start WW2 by invading USA for ultimate sandbox. Then USA sides with Germany and Japan and nukes brazil, good lulz :troll:



We should rename it to Hitlers of Iron while we're there.

Yea seems games focus is around Germany.
 
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Am I the only one who modded provinces, armies and scripted event chains for my alt history scenarios?

I'm pretty sure you're one of the few who are willing to put in some effort to do so.
By the way what happened to that crazy Golden Dawn thing you mentioned once.

Got bored at modding Theatres and OOB, that shit is a nightmare on HOI3.
 

Reject_666_6

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Yeah, dunno the point of playing minors in HoI.

Maybe some of us find it trivial to conquer the world under tanktread and bootheel für Volk und Vaterland every game?
And Paradox, instead of ever bothering to simulate the monumental luck Germany had in being allowed to dictate how the war started, always just pumps them full of IC and free SS units so even a brainless tart can steamroll the Red Tide.
 

GarfunkeL

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Yeah, dunno the point of playing minors in HoI.

Maybe some of us find it trivial to conquer the world under tanktread and bootheel für Volk und Vaterland every game?
And Paradox, instead of ever bothering to simulate the monumental luck Germany had in being allowed to dictate how the war started, always just pumps them full of IC and free SS units so even a brainless tart can steamroll the Red Tide.
It always comes down to AI and, to a lesser degree, player expectations. People claim to want alt-history and sandboxiness, so vanilla HoI3 had very little restrictions. Jesus christ the shit storm on their forums when WW2 didn't start on 1st September 1939 with Germany attacking Poland. Or France stood their ground. Or Any of the other myriad thing that could happen - fascist USA being prime example. So turns out that vast majority of players actually want the WW2 to go exactly as it historically happened, except that the country that the player runs should have 100% freedom to do any- and everything. Whoopie, players are retards, news at eleven.

So France had to be nerfed and Germany made even more op, so that AI-Germany could reliably roll over AI-France, which then meant that War in the East is usually over in 3-4 months, no matter which side wins.
 
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Yeah, dunno the point of playing minors in HoI.

Maybe some of us find it trivial to conquer the world under tanktread and bootheel für Volk und Vaterland every game?
And Paradox, instead of ever bothering to simulate the monumental luck Germany had in being allowed to dictate how the war started, always just pumps them full of IC and free SS units so even a brainless tart can steamroll the Red Tide.
It always comes down to AI and, to a lesser degree, player expectations. People claim to want alt-history and sandboxiness, so vanilla HoI3 had very little restrictions. Jesus christ the shit storm on their forums when WW2 didn't start on 1st September 1939 with Germany attacking Poland. Or France stood their ground. Or Any of the other myriad thing that could happen - fascist USA being prime example. So turns out that vast majority of players actually want the WW2 to go exactly as it historically happened, except that the country that the player runs should have 100% freedom to do any- and everything. Whoopie, players are retards, news at eleven.

This was my experience too back in 2010. Darkest Hour worked far better against this as did HOI2 Armageddon. With every HOI3 DLC the rapetrain seemed to focus entirely on individual sides. I've never seen the Germans escape the dick in an early FtM session.

Now with the popamolization of Paradox and their attempts at mass appeal we can expect to see the same streamlining, event and scripting corridors and even less mod support. The image Reject presented seems nice and good but my gut tells me it won't be more than inane missions like those issued in EU4-irrelevant for the AI.
 

Reject_666_6

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It always comes down to AI and, to a lesser degree, player expectations. People claim to want alt-history and sandboxiness, so vanilla HoI3 had very little restrictions. Jesus christ the shit storm on their forums when WW2 didn't start on 1st September 1939 with Germany attacking Poland. Or France stood their ground. Or Any of the other myriad thing that could happen - fascist USA being prime example. So turns out that vast majority of players actually want the WW2 to go exactly as it historically happened, except that the country that the player runs should have 100% freedom to do any- and everything. Whoopie, players are retards, news at eleven.

So France had to be nerfed and Germany made even more op, so that AI-Germany could reliably roll over AI-France, which then meant that War in the East is usually over in 3-4 months, no matter which side wins.

There's no pleasing everyone without putting in a bunch of work that half the playerbase won't care about.
Well actually a good AI would probably please everyone, but good AI is gaming's philosopher's stone.

Man I remember playing this HoI3 MP session once with randoms on the metaserver. My God, the butthurt that erupted when I decided to annex Finland as the Soviets instead of LARPing the Winter War. Apparently any kind of historical deviation before Danzig or War! is frowned upon, aside from a different Spanish Civil War victor and Japan being allowed to beat the chinks.
 

Vaarna_Aarne

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Make it Hearts of Peace style trolling. Play the Axis, maybe the Soviets as well, and refuse to go to war or act in a hostile manner that raises threat levels. Make it your goal to preserve world peace.
+1 for special path to Hitler's Nobel Peace Prize.
 

Norfleet

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It always comes down to AI and, to a lesser degree, player expectations. People claim to want alt-history and sandboxiness, so vanilla HoI3 had very little restrictions. Jesus christ the shit storm on their forums when WW2 didn't start on 1st September 1939 with Germany attacking Poland. Or France stood their ground. Or Any of the other myriad thing that could happen - fascist USA being prime example. So turns out that vast majority of players actually want the WW2 to go exactly as it historically happened, except that the country that the player runs should have 100% freedom to do any- and everything. Whoopie, players are retards, news at eleven.
Well, to be fair, this IS a reasonable standard for simulational accuracy, that, in the event that the player does not intervene, history should unfold similarly to the way is actually did, or could very well have. If something wildly out of the blue happens, like the world being conquered by Tibet, something is wrong with the simulation. It should not, however, necessarily be perfectly on rails, although perhaps a rail-strength slider might satisfy everyone.

+1 for special path to Hitler's Nobel Peace Prize.
Eh, I dunno. You can still bomb an awful lot of countries and still get a Nobel Peace Prize. Let's not forget that Obama has bombed more countries than arch-warmonger Bush or any other American president in history.

Also, ahoy thar, Vaarna. I see you survived. We were beginning to think you had died.
 
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GarfunkeL

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The chance for AI take ahistorical actions was, in most cases, 10%, though which side won SCW was and still is a toss-up 50/50. Expansions have turned that down to 0% and now AI always takes historical option in events. It would make sense to have a slider to control that chance but for some reason Pdox never implemented such a feature. Of course, issues also arise from players not understanding mechanics - they still get threads where new players complain that the Dutch joined Allies because the player didn't know that human Germany has to spend leadership to counter AI UK influence in that country. Or folks not understanding the supply system, though to be fair, it is pretty complicated.

Man I remember playing this HoI3 MP session once with randoms on the metaserver. My God, the butthurt that erupted when I decided to annex Finland as the Soviets instead of LARPing the Winter War. Apparently any kind of historical deviation before Danzig or War! is frowned upon, aside from a different Spanish Civil War victor and Japan being allowed to beat the chinks.
You should see the house-rules for the big MP campaigns. Most are extremely restrictive - forbidding the intelligence game completely is common. Some do make sense, as USSR for example can easily exploit a minor war to get the best laws in 1937 and thus be an unstoppable juggernaut by 1940.

Well actually a good AI would probably please everyone, but good AI is gaming's philosopher's stone.
I just wish the AI would know how to use armour properly. Unfortunately that is hardcoded in the .exe so modders can only fiddle with division composition and construction priorities. At least it was discovered that if the AI has enough GAR units to guard ports and VP provinces, it doesn't waste armour on such tasks. But it is extremely rare to see the AI try an actual armoured breakthrough and if you see one, it was purely by chance.

Which is why I nowadays only play immersion mods and handicap myself by larping instead of min/maxing unit compositions.
 
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Vaarna_Aarne

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Personally I find that the issue tends to be that without inordinate amounts of modding, after the expansions HoI3 tends to follow a set-up where it firsts makes the historical decisions and event choices... And then SOMETHING goes horribly wrong. And this isn't something akin to the coin-toss of "is Japan super-incompetent, or are Chinese getting taken out in short order" deal, more like the aforementioned blink-and-you-miss-it Eastern Front.

Granted, it's at least more predictable in "hands off" mode than Kaiserreich can be (where it's just no fun if you don't have to stop a crazy French plan to take over the world) where everything's up for grabs.

But yea, not having any player input on "what shall happen" is completely bizarre. Especially with mods, since it's easy (but lots of legwork) to tune out the AI's decision/event behaviour.

The new path thing has a lot of potential though, especially for expanding the game to cover post-WW2 or even pre-WW1 (or to provide a generic "SHIT SHALL GO DOWN" framework set for converted scenarios that will inevitably come with Vicky 3; and I suppose everyone guessed this is also why they opted for a more open structure).
 

Makabb

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I'm hoping hoi 4 will turn out good, no strategy games to play currently.
 

Makabb

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uWal0ha.png



So HOI 4 is going into sandbox mode, good, here's hoping that you can turn minor into a powerhouse and roll over major nations.
 

Vaarna_Aarne

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Well, the biggest challenge for sandbox approach IMO will be to either have multiple variation World War 2's that can happen, or to later expand the game to cover what East vs West would have covered plus maybe World War I (since Victoria's day="turn" timeframe and combat model just can't handle WW1 properly).
 

mondblut

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Well, the biggest challenge for sandbox approach IMO will be to either have multiple variation World War 2's that can happen, or to later expand the game to cover what East vs West would have covered

I don't mind sandbox as long as I get all those free cores in 1938-39.

What is sorely missing is multiple endings. It's either historical outcome (with an optional "yay, allies and commies actually start fighting" alt mode), or Germany has to kill everyone in the world. How about, uh, USA backing off when there is no Europe left, and having a nice Cold War with Germany instead of the vatniks?
 

Vaarna_Aarne

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Well, the biggest challenge for sandbox approach IMO will be to either have multiple variation World War 2's that can happen, or to later expand the game to cover what East vs West would have covered

I don't mind sandbox as long as I get all those free cores in 1938-39.

What is sorely missing is multiple endings. It's either historical outcome (with an optional "yay, allies and commies actually start fighting" alt mode), or Germany has to kill everyone in the world. How about, uh, USA backing off when there is no Europe left, and having a nice Cold War with Germany instead of the vatniks?
Absolute agreed. Any Cold War expansion will have to focus on having at least three possible end scenarios for setting up the post-war world order, followed by a reasonable nuclear system to keep the big atomic dogs in line. Good news is that the path system seems to provide a good basis for modders to pursue this too.

And of course, the HoI3 combat model basics have to be built on so taking out a minor may not be as easy as just throwing more dudes at it.
 

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