Incline Hollow Knight

[polo]

Got to the City of Tears, sharpened my nail, visited the statue. Still can't believe how awesome this game is.

Hollow Knight is a very good game but it is often overstated just how good. I was impressed and had a good time, it's one of the best games in recent years and one of the best Metroidvanias of all time, but wasn't inspired enough to completionist the game or start an immediate replay. Oh, spoiler alert:

-The economy falls apart a little over half way through the game. This is doubly important with the game's death mechanic. If money has no purpose, then death loses some relevance and the risk vs reward of attempting to retrieve it too.
-The environment lacks detail (obscured by darkness, and just the intentional minimalism design). This is perfectly fine, but it's valid that it is less detailed than its counterparts (see: Ori). there's beauty to its minimalism, but it's not the same level of beauty as a truly beautiful game like Ori (Ori is otherwise even more overrated than HK though). I also even find Symphony of the Night more appealing to look at despite being released in 1997. Much wider range of color for starters.
-The customization is simple. This is fine, but if simple it better be damn well refined, and it's not. Once you get the regen health royal jelly there's rarely a reason to use any other setup.
-Signposting could be a little better (of course without ruining it). After you are robbed by the banker how are you supposed to know where she has gone? A CLUE would have been nice. The whole beehive level, not in the slightest intuitive to find. Other examples like this.

Perhaps a little more subjectively:

-The soundtrack. Greenpath & Queen's Garden are fucking masterpieces. And Crystal Peak. One or two others maybe. At times I found myself disappointed with the music though, e.g Deep Nest which is meaningless droning and did not create any tense and mysterious atmosphere it likely intended to.
-Fog canyon is lame for a late game area.
-The DLC bosses are a touch extreme in difficulty. I like a couple super bosses, but them all being that level of difficulty is silly. Meanwhile the end boss is piss easy.

Hollow Knight deserves much of the love it is getting but I wish people had the same time to spare for the other recent great indies we've been lucky to have.

I agree with most of this, but:

Spoiler

The banker lady keeps mentioning the spa if you hit her with the dream nail, before running with the money.

 

[Tehdagah]

Also it's near impossible to die outside of the bosses (healing magic + mana drop from respawnable enemies). Not a good thing for an exploration-based game.

 

[Alphard]

Also it's near impossible to die outside of the bosses (healing magic + mana drop from respawnable enemies). Not a good thing for an exploration-based game.

First enemy do not respawn unless you sit at a checkpoint, just like in a soul.
second, yes it is true you will rarely die traversing the world compared to bosses, but i find it a strenght of the game. Having a more chill experience you can focus on environment amazing art, visuals, atmosphere , music, details, and that it's not a bad thing at all. I'm glad this game didn't take the soul "group of deadly enemies at every corner" not because i don't like the souls, but it's just a different approach. And btw rewards for exploration are gated beyond secret, puzzles, and platforming anyway so there is indeed a challenge to overcome to be rewarded. I think they really nailed it when it comes to balance between difficult content and "easy" but equally enjoyable map traversal

 

[Elwro]

Got the Tear; I like the new area connections.

Still, the Uumuu fight is not too much fun due to the sparsity of occasions on which you can actually damage the boss. I guess I will explore elsewhere and try to improve the Nail again

 

[Elwro]

Discovered the 'joke' in Distant Village. Now that was chilling!

I don't like this infection thing. These things always go away on their own without player interventions in games like these, thankfully ;-)

 

[RoSoDude]

Also it's near impossible to die outside of the bosses (healing magic + mana drop from respawnable enemies). Not a good thing for an exploration-based game.

First enemy do not respawn unless you sit at a checkpoint, just like in a soul.
second, yes it is true you will rarely die traversing the world compared to bosses, but i find it a strenght of the game. Having a more chill experience you can focus on environment amazing art, visuals, atmosphere , music, details, and that it's not a bad thing at all. I'm glad this game didn't take the soul "group of deadly enemies at every corner" not because i don't like the souls, but it's just a different approach. And btw rewards for exploration are gated beyond secret, puzzles, and platforming anyway so there is indeed a challenge to overcome to be rewarded. I think they really nailed it when it comes to balance between difficult content and "easy" but equally enjoyable map traversal

Correction: enemies respawn when you do at benches, but *also* if you go at least 2 rooms away. This means you can't get enemies to respawn by exiting and leaving the same room, but it is possible to grind geo/mana if necessary by going through one more room and back. Axiom Verge did this as well (with an even more pointless copy of Souls-style player respawning to boot), likely so that the player doesn't get frustrated if they enter the wrong room and have to turn right back around.

I agree with you on the whole, though. The lack of difficulty in the level exploration is vastly overstated. I thought there was plenty of satisfying challenge to be found, but not to a level where it killed the pace of exploration. I only permanently lost my soul 3-4 times in the entire game, but I found platforming and combat gauntlets were well designed with fair checkpointing. As the game goes on, you will be tested on your skills, even if not to a degree where you have to try over and over to get through. It's enough to bring you close to death, let you recover, and make you eager to find the next bench to lock in your (locational) progress.

 

[Elwro]

Exploring generates enough challenges for me. Many levels feel like an easy version of Sen's Fortress and this I can deal with. [Mind you, *now* I have traversed Sen's Fortress many times without a death, but oh boy, this wasn't the case when I first played the game...]

I understand what you guys were saying about Nosk. Really nice buildup, meh boss. (Though he at least had this 'cling to the ceiling and spit acid' additional attack which forces one to move...)

 

[<3sRichardSimmons]

I don't really play 2D platformers outside of Metroidvanias, but I would definitely say Hollow Knight has much more difficult platforming than any I've played in the past 20 years, and it has a much larger focus on the platforming as well. The segment in Greenpath on the way to one of the nailmasters, for example, I found extremely difficult the first time through; I probably lost my soul on that section alone more than anything else in the game.

Now that's not to say Hollow Knight is a super difficult platformer, I'm sure there are much more difficult ones out there, but for someone like myself who comes into it not skilled/versed in 2D platformers it's definitely got much harder platforming than other Metroidvanias on the market.

 

[Alphard]

I don't really play 2D platformers outside of Metroidvanias, but I would definitely say Hollow Knight has much more difficult platforming than any I've played in the past 20 years, and it has a much larger focus on the platforming as well. The segment in Greenpath on the way to one of the nailmasters, for example, I found extremely difficult the first time through; I probably lost my soul on that section alone more than anything else in the game.

Now that's not to say Hollow Knight is a super difficult platformer, I'm sure there are much more difficult ones out there, but for someone like myself who comes into it not skilled/versed in 2D platformers it's definitely got much harder platforming than other Metroidvanias on the market.

have you done path of pain yet? i don't know how it compares to old metroidvanias but i found it to be very difficult

 

[Tigranes]

Also it's near impossible to die outside of the bosses (healing magic + mana drop from respawnable enemies). Not a good thing for an exploration-based game.

I, uh, used to die all the time, so it happens if you're not good at these games. Both to enemies and to spikes.

I don't anymore, but certain enemy types / areas, e.g. Flukemarmthings, the teleporting dudes in Soul Tower - can remain threatening. I probably find things more threatening because I just keep moving at maximum speed - e.g. Ancient Basin entry I always end up with the 3 flying lancers + horned worm right behind me in a narrow corridor with no spare soul.

 

[<3sRichardSimmons]

I don't really play 2D platformers outside of Metroidvanias, but I would definitely say Hollow Knight has much more difficult platforming than any I've played in the past 20 years, and it has a much larger focus on the platforming as well. The segment in Greenpath on the way to one of the nailmasters, for example, I found extremely difficult the first time through; I probably lost my soul on that section alone more than anything else in the game.

Now that's not to say Hollow Knight is a super difficult platformer, I'm sure there are much more difficult ones out there, but for someone like myself who comes into it not skilled/versed in 2D platformers it's definitely got much harder platforming than other Metroidvanias on the market.

have you done path of pain yet? i don't know how it compares to old metroidvanias but i found it to be very difficult

Yes, I've done everything in the game besides the Godhome content. PoP was very difficult for me as well, but by the time I got there the game had "taught" me well enough that I didn't have as much difficulty with it as some of the earlier platforming segments.

 

[Elwro]

I beat the BV on first try. A total pushover! So with full confidence I jumped into the Dreamland expecting another boring jumping sequence, only to be roflstomped into the ground by LK. nice.

 

[Alphard]

I beat the BV on first try. A total pushover! So with full confidence I jumped into the Dreamland expecting another boring jumping sequence, only to be roflstomped into the ground by LK. nice.

Yeah LK is one of the fight that gave me more trouble in base game. definitely not easy

 

[<3sRichardSimmons]

LK isn’t too bad once you’ve figured out his full move set. The crowd control on the infected balloons can be a little tough.
I agree BV is one of the easier fights. Not Dung Defender level easy, but he’s definitely no NMKG.

 

[Darth Roxor]

How about you autistic faggots stop talking in abbreviations.

Anyway IIRC lost kin took me quite a few tries, but mostly because his 'move set' makes it a total pain in the ass to fight him legit, so I just brute forced him by mashing the attack button until I won instead.

 

[Elwro]

I've heard about this subtle technique. But the opponents still deal damage when I'm bashing them so I must be missing something...

 

[Darth Roxor]

Hey, I'm not saying it's a particularly effective technique lul, but at least in the case of the lost kin it was better for me than doing it legit.

 

[PlanHex]

I had trouble with lost kin until I put on the stinky charm from the dung defender that makes it so you don't have to worry about the balloons at all, then he's pretty easy.

 

[Tigranes]

Yeah, Lost Kin - the massive difference is Defender's Crest + Shroom charm = all of the floating balloons pop instantly upon approach, meaning you can ignore them. And without them, the boss becomes trivial. I died a lot before I figured that out.

I do enjoy how that one introduces you to the dream copy / superior copy concept. And then later you find the Fallen Champion and that's the real world of pain.

Most of my deaths came on the Trials, when I just couldn't handle the aerial battles. I know that the orthodox wisdom is to rely on great slashes, but I essentially never ever use nail arts. I just find them too fiddly - I rely on moving around quickslashing like a maniac, or sometimes magic, but could never work out how to nail art anything without getting hit like a moron. I can do the trials fine now, but still without nail arts.

 

[PlanHex]

Same, I never really got the hang of using the arts.

Still managed 111%, could consistently beat mostly anything except the Pure Vessel and gave up after I was still only beating him 20% of the time after practicing for 2 hours.
I never got to try my hand at the Path of Pain or the hard version of the emo clown though.

 

[<3sRichardSimmons]

I do enjoy how that one introduces you to the dream copy / superior copy concept. And then later you find the Fallen Champion and that's the real world of pain.

Not necessarily, I found Fallen Champion substantially before Lost Kin on my first playthrough.

 

[Elwro]

Hehe, defeated the folly-summoning Soul Warrior on my first try. The difficulty of this game seems completely weird to me, I had horrible problems with the first SW, none whatsoever with the second one. Well, the moveset was the same... and I was also a lot more agressive this time.

Maybe it's time to tackle Soul Master now...

edit: it turned out it indeed was the proper time to tackle Soul Master right at that moment.

 

[lightbane]

Finally I decided to give this a try. Much easier than I expected, especially boss battles. It helps that the controls are responsive, there's no camera bullshit and bosses using "hidden" AoE attacks like Derp Souls games. I just finished fighting the Mantis Lords before I was "expected" to do so, and I won with some difficulty, their obvious pattern and mid-healing combat making it doable without dying too many times. Using a gamepad is indeed a must though.

 

[Tigranes]

Mantis Lords is the first 'challenging' fight, yes, though I imagine good action/platform players will do fine throughout. But there really is no boss that I found grossly unfair, mechanics-wise.

 

[Verylittlefishes]

Mantis Lords is the first 'challenging' fight, yes, though I imagine good action/platform players will do fine throughout. But there really is no boss that I found grossly unfair, mechanics-wise.

Still trying to beat these guys. I think I'm halfway through, after three Souls' games it should not be that hard.

Spoiler

fuckers