How great RPGs would be without the decline?

[Cryomancer]

In the past, when technology advanced, devs were eager to implement new stuff. For example, from Might & Magic V to VI: Mandate of Heaven, one of the very first things that they did was to add flight spells into the game. Same for Ultima Underworld, the game implemented levitation magic spells not presented in the mainline of Ultima games. Sadly, nowadays RPGs are all about taking cool stuff from older games and iterations and removing it.

But just imagine how cool they could be if, for example, instead of dialog wheels, each NPC could be talked to like a chatterbot. IF instead of removing ways to open doors, in older RPGs like Arcanum, you could bash, disintegrate doors with spells, magically open with unlock cantrip, lockpick, use dynamite, etc., to open any door or window. In modern RPGs, you can only use a lockpick. With all advancements in physics engines, real-time RPGs could have realistic physics, allowing, for example, a very powerful psion to telekinetically hurl a car at a building, and the game could simulate the impact, damage, and other factors in a realistic way. The AI of monsters in real-time RPGs could be as advanced as FEAR. Axe strikes could decapitate enemies and mutilate enemy bodies in a realistic way. With the advancement of AI, we could have P&P modules ported into CRPGs, and the DM could react to PCs out-of-the-box thinking. Think of using animated objects in very creative ways to bypass puzzles or, IDK, sneaking into the boss with an army of invisible animated bag of holdings to drop nasty stuff upon him. An AI DM would be able to react to such ideas. The AI would also be able to counter the PC party in TB games and force the PC to adjust its strategy. Could be even more advanced than KoTC2. Other game genres to take the advancements in physics and AI.

But instead we got... dialog wheels, bullet sponge enemies, the same QTE/cooldown managing boredom for endless gear farming, stat-sticky itemization, nonsensical stupid armor design, pronouns in character creation, etc.

 

[mediocrepoet]

Imagine if Cryomancer knew how to start a discussion.

But instead we got... this.

 

[Fargus]

Thanks for the morning blackpill

 

[Ol' Willy]

You will play goyslop and you will enjoy it

 

[Ryzer]

In Baldur's gate 3, there is a physics engine that allows disintegrating doors with spells.

Never thought Victor would praise BG3.

 

[Reinhardt]

But just imagine how cool they could be if, for example, instead of dialog wheels, each NPC could be talked to like a chatterbot.

we already have you and brucie

 

[Gregz]

You will play goyslop and you will enjoy it

Yep. Funnel down our judenshite and clap like a retarded seal or you're a racist.

 

[Reinhardt]

In Baldur's gate 3, there is a physics engine that allows disintegrating doors with spells.

Never thought Victor would praise BG3.

also he's in love with barrelmancy now.
decline of victor. swen claims another victim.

sneaking into the boss with an army of invisible animated bag of holdings to drop nasty stuff upon him.

 

[Ryzer]

In Baldur's gate 3, there is a physics engine that allows disintegrating doors with spells.

Never thought Victor would praise BG3.

also he's in love with barrelmancy now.
decline of victor. swen claims another victim.

sneaking into the boss with an army of invisible animated bag of holdings to drop nasty stuff upon him.

I think we need an RPG with Ukrainian e-thots and barrelmacy for Victor. Main quest : Слава Украини

 

[DannyRope]

There's a fallacy there somewhere. OP seem to believe that since the tech got better RPG should, naturally, strive to move closer to emulate the experience found in pen and paper roleplaying games with a human game master. But he implies we don't have that due to the laziness, incompetence and greed present in the industry and, while to a certain degree that's true, what really happens is that videogames including RPG are quite expensive to make now which means that they have to be expensive to the consumers as well which in turn means that RPG are made to be looooooong so that the consumers feel that they got their money's worth.
And finally if a RPG is expensive to make and it also has to have a completionist lenght of 70h or more then it's easy to deduce that the vast majority of that content, such as quests, can't be complex too. And before you can say AAA slop you're knee deep in boring fetch quests, dialogue wheels, radiant quests, NPC with little to say and dungeon layouts that you're pretty sure are fairly identical from each other aside from minor differences.

 

[Alex]

Of course I would have loved to see more games that used systems to let the player do certain things. I still remember way back when people were arguing for implementing AD&D thief rules for games like BG2, and the devs basically said it would be a nightmare to let the player climb any building they wanted and then create different entrance routes into the building such as windows and whatnot.

Truth is, having open ended rules deal with things rather than simple scripts was something many devs always shied away from. And not completely for bad reasons either. I imagine that if this had proven to be the default way of doing things, many games would be more like Dwarf Fortress and Cataclysm. But there are two difficult problems with games like this. First, the absolute one, it does take much more resources to make it work than compared to a simpler game where the dev makes things much more linear.

But second, it is also much harder to make this kind of game work with a static story. In the example I gave above about being able to climb any building, one thing that got thrown around was that this could break a bunch of scripts. The people writing scripts and creating encounters absolutely detested the idea the player could get to a certain trigger from different ways. Of course, this is lazy on their part, but it does hint at the difficulty that allowing certain actions can create.

 

[Konjad]

Games didn't become shittier because tech advanced, but because cRPGs became mainstream.

Anyway, after the dark decade past Bloodlines, cRPGs were back and now they are in great shape again with good releases every year, so the only real issue with cRPGs becoming mainstream is the lost decade which otherwise could've had some good cRPGs.

 

[Reality]

Without the decline, I think the arc of WRPG quality would been similar to JRPG

That is, I think games woulda lowered in difficulty and borrowed design from each other too often ... With JRPG having the obvious example of square enix 90s ATTP games.

With WRPG not declining , were looking at doubling down on Goldbox/Infinity Engine - which sounds okay superficially but ultimately I think would have led to general acceptance of long starting areas, keeping clerics/thieves lagging behind wizards a further decade despite advances on tabletop, and I think even a lack of distinction between single character and party games. -- Even if you get 5 consecutive years of "every release is competent"

Generally, a lot of my favorite RPGs are things that are made by people who don't feel like they've played other devs RPGs - Dark Heart of Uurkul and Blackguards 1 being good examples. Encountering a alien/foreign game mechanic whether in combat or char progressiom, is preferable to me than just seeing a good game that copies other good games at same release year

 

[Nifft Batuff]

The real question should be: "How great western RPGs would be without the advent of consoles?"

 

[Nifft Batuff]

But second, it is also much harder to make this kind of game work with a static story. In the example I gave above about being able to climb any building, one thing that got thrown around was that this could break a bunch of scripts. The people writing scripts and creating encounters absolutely detested the idea the player could get to a certain trigger from different ways. Of course, this is lazy on their part, but it does hint at the difficulty that allowing certain actions can create.

A middle ground optimal spot could be achieved, as it has happened in the late '90s with Fallout 1&2, Deus Ex, System Shock 2, etc. The technology could have improved and better optimal spots could have been achieved with further experimentation, but this never happened.

 

[Necrensha]

If you read between the lines, he's basically talking about mixing like 10 different games into a colossal mega-rpg that would take a billion dollars to make.
BG3 was 6 years in development and it has huge gaps where they clearly run out of time/money to continue, who's gonna pay for games that are multiple times bigger than that?
Hell, here's another better example: Genshin Impact. Most expensive game ever made with a manpower of 1000+ people, and yet it's one of the most shallow games you could possibly mention.
The best local AI you can get can barely keep up with what you tell it for about 5 minutes before running out of memory and start hallucinating/getting lost/making shit up, never mind all the wait time. Maybe ask again when we have the 20900 RTX with 600 VRAM to cram all of that inside an rpg.
Or maybe you could connect all of that to the cloud so the corpos can decide when and for how long can you play.
Don't dream too much, you will wake up eventually and feel the unforgiving mallet of reality.

 

[The people of Duckburg]

Even if we did have AI that allowed for this, I wouldn't want it in every game. Some, yes. But I wouldn't want it to replace RPGs as we know them. Using the latest technology doesn't necessarily make for better games.

If we blur the line between video games and tabletop enough, doesn't it eventually get to the point where you could just play tabletop instead? It would be easier to organize, sure. But having other, living, players and the GM's imagination is a big part of tabletop, isn't it? A hypothetical game like this could have visuals and gameplay, but unless we got to the point where AI could develop the game on the spot to account for your choices, it could never truly reach the potential that tabletop RPGs have.

One thing that AI could potentially improve is accounting for the player's motivation and intent. I'm sure we've all encountered situations where you're asked why you did something, and none of the choices really match your or your character's motivation. Torment has come closest out of the games I've played since it, for instance, allowed you to specify whether you were telling the truth or lying, even for choices that served no purpose but to define your character. But even that game couldn't account for every possible intent or motivation, even if we ignore the less reasonable ones. In the end a system that does allow you to truly role play with the help of AI would just be a lite version of what the original post describes, so I have my doubts regarding how realistic it would be to include it in a proper CRPG. Could be cool if we ever get it.

 

[sosmoflux]

They tried to give you RPG incline with Underworld Ascendant but you all shunned it! You deserve the winter that follows

 

[rubinstein]

BG3 was 6 years in development and it has huge gaps where they clearly run out of time/money to continue

larian put money and effort into whats really important for gamers: mo-caped sex scenes and giving VA to as many irrelevant NPCs as possible.

 

[Necrensha]

larian put money and effort into whats really important for gamers: mo-caped sex scenes and giving VA to as many irrelevant NPCs as possible.

And they were right. Your average gamer in the current year is part of the statistically loneliest generation in human history. Every other corner of the internet is filled with desperate gamers crying for attention or trying to replace human interaction with porn.

 

[Cryomancer]

here is a physics engine that allows disintegrating doors with spells.

Yes, and imagine if the engine was used to make good games...

appens is that videogames including RPG are quite expensive to make now

And are much worse.

Because the industry keeps firing talented people and hiring DEI hires.

, it is also much harder to make this kind of game work with a static story.

Yes, but who needs a "static story"? We could get more sandbox games like Mount & Blade.

he's basically talking about mixing like 10 different games into a colossal mega-rpg that would take a billion dollars to make.

Nope.

Just using the tech already available.

Physics are not a new tech and most game engines. My point is, Force Unleashed did implemented cool physics. Any RTRPG should be able to do the same. About AI, here is what modders did with a Bugthesda title:



Everything that I said in this thread exists in mods and older games.

If we blur the line between video games and tabletop enough, doesn't it eventually get to the point where you could just play tabletop instead? I

Because certain stuff in TT are near impossible to do.

A computer can have much more complex calculations than any autistic tabletop group would endure.

 

[Dark Souls II]

In the past, when technology advanced, devs were eager to implement new stuff. For example, from Might & Magic V to VI: Mandate of Heaven, one of the very first things that they did was to add flight spells into the game. Same for Ultima Underworld, the game implemented levitation magic spells not presented in the mainline of Ultima games. Sadly, nowadays RPGs are all about taking cool stuff from older games and iterations and removing it.

But just imagine how cool they could be if, for example, instead of dialog wheels, each NPC could be talked to like a chatterbot. IF instead of removing ways to open doors, in older RPGs like Arcanum, you could bash, disintegrate doors with spells, magically open with unlock cantrip, lockpick, use dynamite, etc., to open any door or window. In modern RPGs, you can only use a lockpick. With all advancements in physics engines, real-time RPGs could have realistic physics, allowing, for example, a very powerful psion to telekinetically hurl a car at a building, and the game could simulate the impact, damage, and other factors in a realistic way. The AI of monsters in real-time RPGs could be as advanced as FEAR. Axe strikes could decapitate enemies and mutilate enemy bodies in a realistic way. With the advancement of AI, we could have P&P modules ported into CRPGs, and the DM could react to PCs out-of-the-box thinking. Think of using animated objects in very creative ways to bypass puzzles or, IDK, sneaking into the boss with an army of invisible animated bag of holdings to drop nasty stuff upon him. An AI DM would be able to react to such ideas. The AI would also be able to counter the PC party in TB games and force the PC to adjust its strategy. Could be even more advanced than KoTC2. Other game genres to take the advancements in physics and AI.

But instead we got... dialog wheels, bullet sponge enemies, the same QTE/cooldown managing boredom for endless gear farming, stat-sticky itemization, nonsensical stupid armor design, pronouns in character creation, etc.

Choices? Physics? AI? You must have hit yourself quite hard when you bumped your head on the Employee Lounge fridge looking for your Soylent bottle. Get yourself together. Karen (she/her) from the Diversity and Inclusion department called a meeting about menstrual leaves, you don't want to be late. Oh by the way, can you stay after hours to make all the women in the game uglier? The board of directors is insisting on it.

 

[Bastardchops]

I think the decline was part focus on graphics moonrace, which has now died out, but also a bit of an over focus on simulation in the independent sphere.
Which is why there were too many roguelikes instead of good roleplay/narrative.

 

[Cryomancer]

Choices? Physics? AI? You must have hit yourself quite hard when you bumped your head on the Employee Lounge fridge looking for your Soylent bottle. Get yourself together. Karen (she/her) from the Diversity and Inclusion department called a meeting about menstrual leaves, you don't want to be late. Oh by the way, can you stay after hours to make all the women in the game uglier? The board of directors is insisting on it.

Don't forget that our chief diversity officer, Karen (she/her), hired a lot of new team members. Guys like Jamal (he/him), Yuri (them/they), and Jose (them/they) don't know what a pointer in C++ is, but I'm sure that they will be a great help to our team and ESG score and that they can make high-quality code for UE5. BTW, before you guys get to work in this nerdy physics stuff, go change all offensive names in your code. I don`t want to see a single "blacklist" in your code till tomorrow.

 

[DannyRope]

what happens is that videogames including RPG are quite expensive to make now

And are much worse.

Because the industry keeps firing talented people and hiring DEI hires.

I did acknowledge that there was some truth to what were you saying; there're, shall we say, less than stellar people working on the gaming industry for whatever reason be that nepotism or, as you say, diversity hires. I only object to it being the sole reason for most modern RPG being worse than the older ones. I merely added that modern RPG have a cost and a gameplay length that is conductive to all the "features" we don't like (copy pasted maps, fetch quests, etc.).

One of my favorite RPG of all time is Vampire the Masquerade: Bloodlines, a game that is relatively short for the genre. And even Bloodlines devolves into "corridors with lame combat" when closing to the end.