How Will WOTC New Approach to Races Effect the Future CRPG?

[Null Null]

BTW, look to the decline on D&D with races :

• TSR times : NO, your half orc can't be a mage. And they are dumbed than normal humans, so -2 INT. Other races like Dwarf can't even learn magic and hence are hated in magical suppremacy countries like Netherese and Glantri. Even mage specializations have race restrictions. Gnomes can only be illuionists and transmuters
• 3.XE times : Sure, you can make a half orc wizard but he would't be as good as a human or elf wizard
• Modern times : You can make a Orc wizard with 20 INT.

Honestly, I wish that more CRPG's will take inspiration in OSR games and less in Woketards butchering of D&D.

fantasy is a completely natural place for applying communism because it's the only place it works

I think that a Realm of Dread/Ravenloft campaign where the Dark Lord is a communist leader can be a interesting campaign. Obviously Barovia would look like a paradise compared to that.

'

I kind of like the 3.xE deal: you can do it, there are consequences, it's not technically optimal but might make for interesting roleplaying, or an unusual build that draws on the half-orc's strengths (perhaps take a few levels of fighter and cast Fire Shield before wading into combat).

The communist leader thing is an interesting idea though--not enough people are aware of the Holodomor or the Great Leap Forward (China). Of course they could use charm magic to actually convince people their way is best. Given starvation is a big thing due to the inefficiency of actual socialist economies, they might just opt to let people starve and then reanimate them as zombies rather than bothering to feed them. The communist overlord then rules over an empire of the emaciated dead.

 

[0wca]

First off, the "issue" is in the term "race". Orcs, drow, humans are a diferrent race in that they are actually different species and yet the woketards try really hard to equate this to the RL term, which doesn't mean different race, but actually different ethnicity.

Second, it's not wrong to portray orcs, drow or any other fantasy race in a certain way. If one doesn't distinguish between RL and fantasy then that's the main problem.

Third, if you want to make a drow or orc that doea't have the stereotypical traits of that race's behavior, then you can always make an NPC that doesn't have them. But that's the DM's job and shpuldn't impact the way the race is portrayed in general. I mean, look at Fall-from-grace from PS:T. She's basically a good-aligned, semi-pacifist, cleric succubus. But she's the exception, not the rule.

As for this shit affecting other cRPGs? Well the ideology is already spreading, regardless of WotC.

 

[Melan]

I am still waiting for Lorraine Williams' rehabilitation. She was a brave womyn who was just before her time in fighting toxic gamer culture (and fatphobia).

 

[Null Null]

I am still waiting for Lorraine Williams' rehabilitation. She was a brave womyn who was just before her time in fighting toxic gamer culture (and fatphobia).

https://www.enworld.org/threads/lorraine-williams-is-it-time-for-a-reevaluation.683454/

 

[mediocrepoet]

She looks like she ate all her worst critics.

 

[Divine Blessing]

stereotypes r a boring excuse for lazy character development. the surpreme lesson of AD&D pantheon is, that every being has its motivation, history and environment, which framed his decisions etc.

though articistally placed stereotypes in fiction can be a statement, they usually degenerate rapidly into the absurd. Warhammer 40ks emperor is a prime example for a sarcastic perspective on idolisation, where beings r abused as mere projections for power (fantasies), as simple containers for rage, greed, hate etc.

its not to be reduced to a matter of taste, but artistic expertise to deliver contexed characters with motivations, backstory and therefore personality.

not just AD&D, but overall pop-culture is still struggling to develop beyond its original limits of patriarchal white supremacy and some opinions verify the reason. but arts, as do games, have and will always evolve the human condition as a reflection on its current state and there is nothing else KKK can do about it, than to rant. it will exclusively accellerate this unstoppable process of understanding the souvereignity of human dignity.

 

[mediocrepoet]

stereotypes r a boring excuse for lazy character development. the surpreme lesson of AD&D pantheon is, that every being has its motivation, history and environment, which framed his decisions etc.

though articistally placed stereotypes in fiction can be a statement, they usually degenerate rapidly into the absurd. Warhammer 40ks emperor is a prime example for a sarcastic perspective on idolisation, where beings r abused as mere projections for power (fantasies), as simple containers for rage, greed, hate etc.

its not to be reduced to a matter of taste, but artistic expertise to deliver contexed characters with motivations, backstory and therefore personality.

not just AD&D, but overall pop-culture is still struggling to develop beyond its original limits of patriarchal white supremacy and some opinions verify the reason. but arts, as do games, have and will always evolve the human condition as a reflection on its current state and there is nothing else KKK can do about it, than to rant. it will exclusively accellerate this unstoppable process of understanding the souvereignity of human dignity.

Way to break the button system, man. This is equal parts what?, bad spelling, and retadred. I could possibly narrow it down, or perhaps add additional appropriate buttons to the mix, but I actually have no idea what you're on about. I'm not sure if this is more a facet of your poor writing or it's simply a side effect of the bucket of drugs you consumed before logging in.

Anyway, keep at it. I'm sure you'll fulfill your agenda at some point. If anyone else can determine what that might be.

 

[Anonymous Wife Scholar]

Way to break the button system, man. This is equal parts what?, bad spelling, and retadred. I could possibly narrow it down, or perhaps add additional appropriate buttons to the mix, but I actually have no idea what you're on about.

Is you threat use Reddit button rating anon! Is it! Button nonsense is harmless nonsense mediocrepatron anon! It is! It is JamesDixon tier ADD TO IGNORE LIST limp penis threat nonsense anon! It is!

 

[Divine Blessing]

Way to break the button system, man. This is equal parts what?, bad spelling, and retadred. I could possibly narrow it down, or perhaps add additional appropriate buttons to the mix, but I actually have no idea what you're on about. I'm not sure if this is more a facet of your poor writing or it's simply a side effect of the bucket of drugs you consumed before logging in.

Anyway, keep at it. I'm sure you'll fulfill your agenda at some point. If anyone else can determine what that might be.

in ignorance of quoted users (sarcastic) context, the explanation is as simple as the used spelling: AD&D is struggling to overcome stereotypes - the topic (and content) of this thread(s opinions). cuz stereotypes r boring. they dont require much backstory and dont allow for much character development.

but there is this very niche of customers, that needs everything to be reduced to meme (and XP) containers, cuz they dont or maybe cant care (due to cognitive capacity) much for personality. but power fantasies.

guess what? power fantasies r as boring as Salvatore Chronicles of Ynis Aelle... not Schwermetall, but Disney.

 

[Cpt. Dallas]

Crap like this is the best reason to stick with 1st edition, if for no other reason than spite. These people are insane.

 

[mediocrepoet]

Way to break the button system, man. This is equal parts what?, bad spelling, and retadred. I could possibly narrow it down, or perhaps add additional appropriate buttons to the mix, but I actually have no idea what you're on about. I'm not sure if this is more a facet of your poor writing or it's simply a side effect of the bucket of drugs you consumed before logging in.

Anyway, keep at it. I'm sure you'll fulfill your agenda at some point. If anyone else can determine what that might be.

in ignorance of quoted users (sarcastic) context, the explanation is as simple as the used spelling: AD&D is struggling to overcome stereotypes - the topic (and content) of this thread(s opinions). cuz stereotypes r boring. they dont require much backstory and dont allow for much character development.

but there is this very niche of customers, that needs everything to be reduced to meme (and XP) containers, cuz they dont or maybe cant care (due to cognitive capacity) much for personality. but power fantasies.

guess what? power fantasies r as boring as Salvatore Chronicles of Ynis Aelle... not Schwermetall, but Disney.

This is just bizarre. It's like you know where the shift button is, but not how to use it in the construction of a sentence. And your spelling still sucks.

They probably offer courses on spelling and grammar at your local community college. You should check them out.

 

[Divine Blessing]

This is just bizarre. It's like you know where the shift button is, but not how to use it in the construction of a sentence. And your spelling still sucks.

They probably offer courses on spelling and grammar at your local community college. You should check them out.

rephrasing to meet quoted users standards:

stereotypes = kill cuz evil = boring = no money -> AD&D: gotta do some rainbows for the crowd = money

 

[mediocrepoet]

This is just bizarre. It's like you know where the shift button is, but not how to use it in the construction of a sentence. And your spelling still sucks.

They probably offer courses on spelling and grammar at your local community college. You should check them out.

rephrasing to meet quoted users standards:

stereotypes = kill cuz evil = boring = no money -> AD&D: gotta do some rainbows for the crowd = money

Don't forget to take the primer on reading comprehension while you're there. You should find it very helpful.

 

[Divine Blessing]

Don't forget to take the primer on reading comprehension while you're there. You should find it very helpful.

doesnt seem to have been much of help for u, so... maybe read Joyce or Beckett, as they require more lyrical sense than semantic ratio.

 

[mediocrepoet]

Don't forget to take the primer on reading comprehension while you're there. You should find it very helpful.

doesnt seem to have been much of help for u, so... maybe read Joyce or Beckett, as they require more lyrical sense than semantic ratio.

Since we're apparently playing name drop wank, I expect that Seuss or Raffi are more your speed. The use of onomatopoeia is sublime.

Or to put it in a manner you're able to parse: u r moran

But hey, have a great day!

 

[0wca]

This is just bizarre. It's like you know where the shift button is, but not how to use it in the construction of a sentence. And your spelling still sucks.

They probably offer courses on spelling and grammar at your local community college. You should check them out.

rephrasing to meet quoted users standards:

stereotypes = kill cuz evil = boring = no money -> AD&D: gotta do some rainbows for the crowd = money

You do not understand the difference between a book and a TTRPG. It is not the developer's job to frame their setting into a story. Their job is to frame it into a SETTING. What a setting is, is essentially a playground for the DM and their creativity. Whatever characters come from that creativity, be they stereotypical or deep, they are made BY the DM, NOT the company.

WotC and other companies obviously DO post books whose stories take place in their setting, but those are BOOKS. They are there to add certain characters to the setting to make it more real and they are pretty much optional for the DM and their sessions.

I made plenty of NPCs who break the norm, but I flesh them out in a way that makes sense and I don't change all of the orcs to good because I decided to make an orc NPC that's not a murdering lunatic. It's called the MONSTER MANUAL for a reason.

 

[Zed Duke of Banville]

I am still waiting for Lorraine Williams' rehabilitation. She was a brave womyn who was just before her time in fighting toxic gamer culture (and fatphobia).

Lorraine Williams was brought into TSR by Gary Gygax himself in March 1985 when the company was in dire need of investment amid its ongoing financial crisis. Like nearly everyone else who worked with Gary Gygax, she became alienated from him, and subsequently she carried out a leadership coup in October just 7 months after coming on board, with the connivance of several other TSR executives. Without this action, it's quite possible that TSR would soon have gone bankrupt, since Gygax had become dismissive of the concerns of TSR's debt-holders and wasn't appreciating the gravity of the situation. For that matter, Gygax himself seemed more focused on creative rather than business work despite having re-asserted his control of TSR at the beginning of the year; he allowed Lorraine Williams exceptional authority despite her being both a newcomer and a non-gamer. Under the leadership of Lorraine Williams, TSR's financial situation soon turned around and it experienced a decade of prosperity and relative stability, with the primary cause of its demise in 1997 being idiotic carelessness on the part of its fiction publishing division.

 

[Melan]

It also neutered AD&D and turned it into the domain of limp-wristed renfaire rejects. Very nice, though, that number went up.

 

[Cryomancer]

IMO having flaws, drawbacks and hindrances are a thing that makes a character more interesting to play in a RPG. For eg, Shadow Mages in AD&D 2E.

- https://1d4chan.org/wiki/Shadow_Magic
"In Advanced Dungeons & Dragons, the Player's Option: Spells & Magic sourcebook featured, amongst other kits like the Elementalist, Dimensionalist, Alchemist, Artificer and Wild Mage, the Shadow Mage. This philosophical specialist wizard combines elements of necromancy, illusion, and conjuration, drawing its power from then-theoretical Plane of Shadow to produce eerie phantasms and shadow-stuff constructs. Whilst lacking in direct confrontational firepower, they excel at infiltration and spy-work. This kit, restricted to human wizards only, required Intelligence 15 and Wisdom 16 to enter. Its Opposition Schools are Evocation and Abjuration."

"Additionally, the penalty their shadow magic spells inflict to their targets' saving throws depends on the ambient lighting; +2 for bright daylight or a continual light spell; no penalty for weak daylight, dusk or a light spell; -1 for twilight, moonlight or lantern light; -2 weak moonlight or torchlight; -3 for candlelight or starlight; and finally a whopping -4 penalty for total darkness."

Playing as a magic user of that type honestly seems way more interesting than a Mary sue that can do everything. The tendency of removing flaws hindrances and drawbacks is sadly plaguing CRPG's and TTRPG's. This "no more negative attribute for certain races" is just one part of this problem.

 

[perfectslumbers]

Personally I already think 5e is massive decline for rpgs, and unless 5.5e/6e decides to change direction it will continue to be. Races no longer being important or relevant feels like a natural extension of the culture of 5e. While 5e is technically quite a complex game mostly focused on dungeon crawling, the game is so poorly designed and bland, and with so many missing systems, that the community has essentially entirely abandoned what 5e was designed for and adapted a Critical Role-esque quirky linear social game with a combat encounter once a session. The sort of fantasy superhero movie that many people accuse 5e of being. WOTC will of course, follow the culture that has made their game a massive success rather than refining the original design of 5e, and as such I believe the changes to race will eventually be followed by other changes in the same nature.

 

[Lorebrok]

I stumbled across thses two articles here: https://www.belloflostsouls.net/2021/05/dd-wotc-adds-three-new-types-of-drow-retcons-drow-lore.html

"I hope that this is just the first step, and that the days of “all evil” races are gone. Orcs, as written now, are always evil savages, and that’s neither fun nor particularly satisfying writing. But with this move to a more broad, diverse perspective of drow, we’re getting an idea of what a more inclusive future of Dungeons & Dragons could be like, and honestly, it’s about time."

https://www.polygon.com/22585687/du...atore-drizzt-black-controversy-race-interview

"Savatore says this othering was always his intent. What he did not fully comprehend when he created the character, he said, was how Drizzt’s blackness would contribute to how that othering was perceived by his audience. Today, the black-as-other and related tropes are widely viewed as a problematic narrative devices."

"Since its inception in the 1970s, the game has codified racism, in the form of strict inequalities between its fantasy races, within its ruleset. As writer and game designer James Mendez Hodes wrote in 2019, “D&D, like Tolkien, makes race literally real in-game by applying immutable modifiers to character ability scores, skills, and other characteristics.”


"Later illustrators of D&D products, perhaps more aware of the optics, have made them a purple-black or dusky-grey-black. But let’s be real. They have black skin. If you can’t see the problems with this, I can’t help you."


"Making “races” like orcs and dark elves inherently evil does two things. First, it presents a world in which good and evil are so simplistic that an entire culture, race, or species can be inherently evil. If someone were to transpose that way of thinking onto cultures or races today, it could lead to the worst sort of prejudice."

End quotes.

I always thought it was pretty simple: some jungle elves with black skin get thrown out of polite elven society/trees and take refuge in the underdark. They're naturals at chess, break dancing, and have big tits (or cock if that's for you) and absorb all the mana from the surroundings that give them the abilities to wear headgear other than tinfoil hats, bling things up with faerie lights, and finally prove once and for all that all other races can't jump.

And their society makes them the type of characters that would stab their neighbour in the back at any opportunity to aquire free boots of speed.

And as far as orcs go, well we all agree that the greenskins must die. That's the emperors will.

I find this new approach highly problematic.

Good god now thats unfortunate. The reasoning is so dumb. Its okay for races to be inherently evil but its also important on what viewpoint we stand or look from. Because every dev thinks that the do gooder is the way to go and develop, and therefore almost always just say "these are the evil guys" without providing proper reasoning, beliefs, culture or anything. They should rather make evil races more believable instead of now saying "we have to change that cause just being evil is not inclusive". Load of bull. Because they are too lazy to actually reflect and embrace the culture etc of other (or evil) races in most games. I think baldurs gate did it pretty good with the underdark. I also was a scrub not knowing shit about drows besides: yo they evil!
But after underdark it changed. Learned a bit of their society, culture, struggles etc. Made them almost likable. Of course they are evil, let them be. Thats okay. I want some crazy, fantasy shit in my fantasy games. Not political reflections in my games, urgh real-life has enough of that already.

And whats so bad about drows/darkelfs being black? What the hell. I dont see a problem with it, but the author/illustrators seem to have one with them being black. Because they force their real life views onto the game and therefore limiting the creative freedom of fantasy. Its fantasy ffs, drows dont even have similarities to black people or whatever he means. Just the black skincolor. Sometimes I think that their actions and way of thinking is actually racist (even though its meant positive) and not me. Honestly, Im so tired of all this political shit. I escape into rich rpg worlds not to see the same shit I have in real life.

Would like to write more in depth on this topic but work calls.

 

[KateMicucci]

It also neutered AD&D and turned it into the domain of limp-wristed renfaire rejects. Very nice, though, that number went up.

Please elaborate.

 

[KateMicucci]

Why don't people play games that aren't dnd?

 

[Johnny Biggums]

Let me make it real simple for WOTC:

Slants get -2 CHA and +2 INT
Jiggas get -2 INT and +2 DICK
Whiteys like myself get +1 all stats and an additional feat at creation because we are human

 

[Ol' Willy]

Just like real world human races differ from each other in physical and mental capabilities, moral and spiritual qualities, so should various races in a game's setting. Sometimes art should be closer to life