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Icewind Dale Icewind Dale is a very boring, bad game

Theldaran

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But let's change the question a little bit. How many memorable encounters does IWD, a game devoted to combat, have? Note that I can't answer this question myself due to the time passed. But I'd like to hear opinions.

I'd highlight:

- Presio, but he's the weakest and poorest.
- Yxunomei, like 3 chapters into the game or something
- The Lich in Dorn (though you kill him underhandedly)
- Malavon, maybe, especially where he unleashes those pesky cloudkills or whatever they are
- The Idol (a dirty trick is to kill it with summoned undead)
- Poquelin
- Belhifet

The rest tends to be filler most of the time.
 
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IncendiaryDevice

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Pacing of content and/or boredom has to do with feelings, there is not much I can do about that. It has to *feel* right.

Fell free to have all the feelings you want, but you're not being factual to the term trash combat.

Trash combat is like in Baldur's gate 1 or two when you go into the sewers and encounter respawning kobolds over and over again and the game specifically requires you to keep going back and forth through the dungeon for different missions throughout the game regardless of level. Much like how, in an average completionist run of BG1 you'll have to fight off approximately 25 groups of gibberlings spread out all over the map in practically every location regardless of level or habitat. And this is before you even consider the 50 packs of wolves you'll face.
 

Theldaran

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Why is it filler to be ambushed by a gang of skeletons when you try to raid a trapped tomb?

I don't mean to say it's out of place, I just find it terribly generic as far as D&D goes. And thus, the opposite of memorable.

Not generic in flavour, just generic to play through.
 

Trashos

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I am no big fan of BG1, and the reason why is exactly what you described.

All right, what do you want to call combat that doesn't require major switching of tactics or combat that is select all-->attack or combat that does not require preparation and/or combat that is not memorable?

I call the above different shades of trash combat (although I understand that quite a few people, eg PoE fans, are going to disagree with the "preparation" bit -take that out if you wish). If you don't like my definition, that's fine. You want to call it "generic" instead, no problem. But the issue in terms of gameplay is the same from the perspective of this player.
 

Theldaran

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For me it's trash combat. "Generic" is just a label to mean boring (to me).

How isn't it trash combat, if with some cleric you can wipe all the minor undead, with a fighter-type you can clear the goblins, and so on. Not very creative combat really.
 

Tigranes

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It is indeed fair to ask how memorable or customised IWD's encounters are. It can feel very much a slog if you need every fight to be a special set piece, if you really find IE combat a drag, etc.

But usually the big comparison point is BG2's mage battle strategy. BG2's enemy line up does feature a lot of special enemies and custom-made abilities and the like, but a lot of what drives it is the ability to plonk a couple of spellcasters in a room and have that really drive the combat situation. In IWD, for example, you can sort of stroll along without any kind of spell deflection/save spells, just because enemy spellcasters are few, their spell selection is limited, and they are pretty easy to pick off or interrupt. Think how easy it is to deal with the spells of the skeletal mage in the initial entry to Kresselack's Tomb, compared to how you've got to build all of your plans around not your spells but the enemy's spells if you happen to run into Garrick's woman or the Red Wizards early on (and you don't just stealth cheese backstab fireball them in 0.1 seconds).

Honestly, I like having this range. IWD could have done really cool things had it gone the BG2 route (and come out after BG2 with more development time, I guess), but there's something nice about IWD's more stripped down approach, and the kind of parties you build in response.
 
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IncendiaryDevice

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All right, what do you want to call trash combat.

a) combat that is not appropriate for your level: usually encountering level 1/2 foes while being significantly higher level, while those foes offer nothing as a means to increase their odds such as situational advantage or vast numbers. They will just be a small pack of "trash combat".

b) Such encounters appearing without rhyme nor reason to the context in which they appear. Such as being drawn from a pool of random encounters that does not relate to habitat.

c) Respawns.

This is why games like Oblivion went to the effort to try and force "level scaling" instead of the BG1 method of trash combat. Level scaling turned out to be shit by a different asshole, but that's a different topic.

For me it's trash combat. "Generic" is just a label to mean boring (to me).

How isn't it trash combat, if with some cleric you can wipe all the minor undead, with a fighter-type you can clear the goblins, and so on. Not very creative combat really.

And if IWD is someone's first ever experience of both D&D & fantasy RPG? Surely to them not one single thing will be 'generic', right?
 

Cael

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For me it's trash combat. "Generic" is just a label to mean boring (to me).

How isn't it trash combat, if with some cleric you can wipe all the minor undead, with a fighter-type you can clear the goblins, and so on. Not very creative combat really.
... So, if there is an effective tactic to kill mobs, they are trash mobs?

You just basically threw out every low Int and low Dex creature out there including DRAGONS because of two spells called Ray of Stupidity and Shivering Touch.

You, sir, are a complete fuckwit.
 

Theldaran

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... So, if there is an effective tactic to kill mobs, they are trash mobs?

You just basically threw out every low Int and low Dex creature out there including DRAGONS because of two spells called Ray of Stupidity and Shivering Touch.

You, sir, are a complete fuckwit.

You don't seem to get it.

That it is convenient for me to kill a dragon in BG2 through a single Finger of Death or some combo doesn't mean it's a good or fun fight. It's cheesing even if it's legal and endorsed by the system.

Killing minor undead with a cleric or mobs with a fighter isn't cheesing, it's playing how it is supposed to be, but it clearly isn't fun combat, it's just filler and a waste of my time, my point exactly.

Sometimes you just feel like cheesing out the fight, sometimes you want a good fight without cheese, like grown men.

Another example is clearing out the vampire lair in BG2. You can call upon such mighty cheese as the Mace of Disruption and Silver Amulet on a Cleric with turn undead active, you can bring a Scroll of Protection from Undead, or you can use more noble tactics. Usually I don't care about vampires so I'll go with the Mace, but depends on my party.
 
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The Great ThunThun*

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Pathfinder: Wrath
Trash combat is when:

1) it has no relevance to the situation
2) Its just added waves of the same/similar composition
3) its made up of enemies that take no effort to kill but only wasted time that you'd be better spending advancing the plot

*Any* of these can be trash combat.
 

Cael

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You don't seem to get it.

That it is convenient for me to kill a dragon in BG2 through a single Finger of Death or some combo doesn't mean it's a good or fun fight. It's cheesing even if it's legal and endorsed by the system.

Killing minor undead with a cleric or mobs with a fighter isn't cheesing, it's playing how it is supposed to be, but it clearly isn't fun combat, it's just filler and a waste of my time, my point exactly.
No, YOU don't seem to get it. Your objections are spurious and devoid of actual thought. One could say that you heard it from somewhere and are regurgitating it without critical analysis.

A Fireball can easily get rid of swarms of low tier enemies and Fireball wands are distressingly common in, say, BG. Does that mean the encounter is trash? No, it doesn't.

Encounters are designed to drain you of resources, so that you will be able to get through a certain number of encounters before you have to rest. The entirety of 3.x, for example, is predicated on this. Sure, your Cleric can Turn Undead, and IF it is successful, he might Turn some according to his level, which when low basically means one out of a dozen skeleton is Turned. It also uses up his number of Turns per day. That automatically ensures that the encounter is not trash. You used up resources on it.

Your idea of trash means that the encounter is easy, which is a bullshit measure. It is the equivalent of saying, "free floating ice melts, so water level will rise". Looks legit, until you think about it for more than a split second.
 

Theldaran

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Your idea of trash means that the encounter is easy, which is a bullshit measure.

Not easy, just... routinary. The very essence of being a chore.

Also you're mixing up things, why just bring up 3ED rules here? Don't you know turn undead in IE games is an at-will power? What the fuck, man.
 

Cael

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Not easy, just... routinary. The very essence of being a chore.
Then, stop playing games, because at some stage, everything will look the same. Shoot one Nazi, shot them all.

I can't believe you are getting me to agree with Explosiveboy.
 

Theldaran

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Then, stop playing games, because at some stage, everything will look the same. Shoot one Nazi, shot them all.

I can't believe you are getting me to agree with Explosiveboy.

Oh, so then we should embrace boredom in videogames?

You agreeing with him is your fault completely, though.

A 60-hour game with filler combat is as valid as a replayable 30-hour game, I guess. But the devs kinda disagree.
 

Cael

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Oh, so then we should embrace boredom in videogames?

You agreeing with him is your fault completely, though.

A 60-hour game with filler combat is as valid as a replayable 30-hour game, I guess. But the devs kinda disagree.
And you can complete Fallout 2 in 20 mins. Does that mean it is a crap game full of trash mobs?

You are bored because you don't like what the game is about. You are playing a RPG, you fucktard. What did you expect if not killing things, taking their stuff and your toon getting stronger? You must be a bloody riot when you were younger when you went over to your friend's place for a Nintendo party.
 

Theldaran

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What did you expect if not killing things, taking their stuff and your toon getting stronger?

You only accomplish 1/3 of that when killing minor, spammed foes.

You won't get that strong. You won't take anything of value.

Bottom line, trash mobs is a reality we have to live with. I just called it boring, I didn't mean to remove it or condemn it more than that.
 

Cael

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You only accomplish 1/3 of that when killing minor, spammed foes.

You won't get that strong. You won't take anything of value.
You must be some sort of fucking idiot, then, because I don't recall any mobs not ever giving you any XP in IWD.

And by the way, you motherfucking shithead: It is not my fault when I agree with someone else. It is completely YOUR fault.

You: The sky is green.
ID: No, it is blue.
Me: I have to agree with ID.
You: It's your fault for agreeing with him.

Fuck off, you cunt.
 

Trashos

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It is indeed fair to ask how memorable or customised IWD's encounters are. It can feel very much a slog if you need every fight to be a special set piece, if you really find IE combat a drag, etc.

But usually the big comparison point is BG2's mage battle strategy. BG2's enemy line up does feature a lot of special enemies and custom-made abilities and the like, but a lot of what drives it is the ability to plonk a couple of spellcasters in a room and have that really drive the combat situation. In IWD, for example, you can sort of stroll along without any kind of spell deflection/save spells, just because enemy spellcasters are few, their spell selection is limited, and they are pretty easy to pick off or interrupt. Think how easy it is to deal with the spells of the skeletal mage in the initial entry to Kresselack's Tomb, compared to how you've got to build all of your plans around not your spells but the enemy's spells if you happen to run into Garrick's woman or the Red Wizards early on (and you don't just stealth cheese backstab fireball them in 0.1 seconds).

Honestly, I like having this range. IWD could have done really cool things had it gone the BG2 route (and come out after BG2 with more development time, I guess), but there's something nice about IWD's more stripped down approach, and the kind of parties you build in response.

Totally agree with the 1st parts of your post. To me, it comes down to what I mentioned several posts back. SoA (and DAO to a lesser extent) explored what RTwP can do better than Turn-Based. The other RTwP games that I have played (BG1, IWD, PST), didn't.
 

Theldaran

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Cael is just a troll, I think I won't read any more posts by you.

Seethe in anger, retard.
 

Cael

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Cael is just a troll, I think I won't read any more posts by you.

Seethe in anger, retard.
If the above is an example of the "logical" thinking you possess, then you can seethe in your delusion of adequacy, boy.
 

Kruno

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IWD is the best RPG of all time, it is even better than Grimoire. Anyone who disparages IWD is automatically a troll.
 

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