I'm sorry, but Morrowind simply is not a good 'game' but it is a good digital world

[buru5]

-hopelessly generic NPCs who's dialogue system is entirely copy+pasted, almost all unique dialogue is only for people involved in quests
-copy+pasted dialogue is not even good/immersive, everyone talks like a GPS/wikipedia hybrid (this along with the above bullet point is my #1 problem with the game)
-HORRID combat, even after you get your skills set up so you don't miss anymore it just feels like shit and involves 0 actual skill, directional attacks are completely pointless because one of those attacks does more damage than the others no matter the situation
-Vivec city, the largest grouping of structures in Vvanderfall, is six identical, boring giant hut like buildings with copy+pasted interiors (interiors DO have some unique additions, but for the most part are copy+paste)
-travel system, esp. early on, is anti-fun incarnate, unless you like holding shift to walk around while you stare at the ugly swamp enviorns of the bitter coast
-speaking about graphics, the world itself has a decent amount of variety and art direction is actually great, but technically the models, textures and animations were ASS for the time, only the water was impressive
-Balmora is suppose to be divided into unique districts based around class but everything looks more or less the same throughout the town
-0 power or benefits to becoming guild leader, most guild NPCs won't even acknowledge you as the leader

edit: also the quests were ass for the most part, less back story for most guild jobs compared to even Obliv/Skyrim YIKES

Morrowind is pretty much objectively a 6 or a 7 out of 10, completely buoyed by its (admittedly incredible) lore and world. If the lore/world sucked it would be like a 3

Based

Everything mentioned in the original post is a valid criticism, but a good part of what is mentioned in there can also be fixed (or at least alleviated) with mods to an extent that is mostly unavailable for other RPGs..

A game that requires mods to be enjoyable is a bad game.

 

[Deleted Member 16721]

I'd just use graphics enhancers if I played it again. Long distant views, new models, that sort of thing. The combat is fine, it's dice-roll based, but since people see a first person view they expect it to be FPS combat instead of a real-time Neverwinter Nights. I think Morrowind would have avoided the "bad combat" tag years later if they made each round 6 seconds and it was a RTWP system. That's something I'd actually like to see in a new RPG - Morrowind's level of depth with first-person RTWP. Sort of like a first-person NWN. That would be dope.

If you're like me and have played Morrowind 10 times then try new content mods - Less Generic NPCs, the rebuilt Morrowind continent thingy, maybe Morrowind Rebirth or whatever it's called that changes some of the city layouts and stuff - that's only if you've played it to death. But Morrowind is a game that even in vanilla you can keep coming back to and finding new things you didn't find before. It's a special game.

 

[sullynathan]

At the cost of sounding like the sort of unbareable hipster the Codex just loves to bits: Normal people, the people who play Skyrim and think it's a good game. They just don't "get" games like Morrowind.

I can't help but feel like statements like these are wrong. The most popular, highest rated and best selling game of 2018 so far has a fast travel system similar to Morrowind.

 

[TemplarGR]

I can't help but feel like statements like these are wrong. The most popular, highest rated and best selling game of 2018 so far has a fast travel system similar to Morrowind.

What game is that?

 

[sullynathan]

I can't help but feel like statements like these are wrong. The most popular, highest rated and best selling game of 2018 so far has a fast travel system similar to Morrowind.

What game is that?

Red Dead Redemption 2

 

[buru5]

I can't help but feel like statements like these are wrong. The most popular, highest rated and best selling game of 2018 so far has a fast travel system similar to Morrowind.

What game is that?

Red Dead Redemption 2

Those two games are barely comparable. RDR3 actually has entertaining gameplay with the gunplay and whatnot. It's easy to overlook mediocre game design when the core game mechanics are entertaining. Morrowind's core mechanics are not.

 

[Shaewaroz]

I can't help but feel like statements like these are wrong. The most popular, highest rated and best selling game of 2018 so far has a fast travel system similar to Morrowind.

What game is that?

Red Dead Redemption 2

And here's your average Joe's main complaint about the game:

 

[thesheeep]

The only things about Morrowind that have aged horribly are parts of the UI and the walking speed.
Seriously, that walking speed...
I have no clue how I ever played that without the mod that makes movement bearable.

I still think the weird-ass combination of roll-to-hit plus having to aim and hit enemies yourself is pretty dumb.

Nah, this is the best part about it.
As it should be in an RPG, your character's stats + RNG, not the player's physical skills, determine if something was hit or not. All you do is decide when to attack (and which enemy/direction). The only thing it lacked were dodge/miss animations to make things a little clearer.
I truly wish more games would make use of this system instead of Skyrim's action combat. I don't hate Skyrim's combat, I can deal with it, but it certainly lacks in RPG-ness. It's basically just an action game.

 

[sullynathan]

I can't help but feel like statements like these are wrong. The most popular, highest rated and best selling game of 2018 so far has a fast travel system similar to Morrowind.

What game is that?

Red Dead Redemption 2

And here's your average Joe's main complaint about the game:

Your average Joe still thinks it's a masterpiece or near masterpiece hence the 9/10 review and dozens - hundreds of hours in the game

 

[sullynathan]

It's basically just an action game.

There's nothing inherently wrong with "action combat" of this sort in the is essentially an action rpg. Gothic has "action combat" and while it isn't good, it is still superior to what morrowind has.

 

[thesheeep]

It's basically just an action game.

There's nothing inherently wrong with "action combat" of this sort in the is essentially an action rpg.

But Morrowind isn't very much of an action RPG. It has certain action elements, but they are very low compared to later titles in the series.
And that is a good thing for people who like their RPGs less actiony and more cerebral, being about stats, builds, etc. instead of just clicking at the right time.

If you really think that just because a game is first person, it automatically is or should be an action game of sorts, you're completely out of perspective (huehue).

Gothic has "action combat" and while it isn't good, it is still superior to what morrowind has.

Nope, they are just different games with different kinds of combat. You might as well start comparing Darksiders to Baldur's Gate.

 

[Shaewaroz]

Your average Joe still thinks it's a masterpiece or near masterpiece hence the 9/10 review and dozens - hundreds of hours in the game

That's completely besides the point you were making (that casualtards enjoy games without fast travel). Our average Joe here said he would have enjoyed the game more if it had had fast travel.

 

[sullynathan]

Nope, they are just different games with different kinds of combat. You might as well start comparing Darksiders with Baldur's Gate.

Gothic and morrowind are closer to each other than darksiders is to baldur's gate.

And that is a good thing for people who like their RPGs less actiony and more cerebral, being about stats, builds, etc. instead of just clicking at the right time.

But morrowind isn't cerebral, you trade clicking at the right time for clicking all the time.

 

[sullynathan]

Your average Joe still thinks it's a masterpiece or near masterpiece hence the 9/10 review and dozens - hundreds of hours in the game

That's completely besides the point you were making (that casualtards enjoy games without fast travel). Our average Joe here said he would have enjoyed the game more if it had had fast travel.

My post isn't specifically about angry Joe, in reality many people love a game that has similar fast travel system to morrowind.
The game does have other fast travel means, looks like joe didn't find them.

 

[thesheeep]

And that is a good thing for people who like their RPGs less actiony and more cerebral, being about stats, builds, etc. instead of just clicking at the right time.

But morrowind isn't cerebral, you trade clicking at the right time for clicking all the time.

The cerebral stuff is obviously not the clicking, but the character building.
In Morrowind, a click is just giving the command to your character to attack now. No player skill is involved in this.
What happens then, happens entirely within the simulation/mechanics, as it should be in an RPG (because pure RPGs handle all important actions independently from player skill).

In Gothic, physical player skill determines success in combat, because it - in contrast to Morrowind - is actually an action RPG.
You could complete the entire game without ever improving any stats (if there isn't some gated content with skill checks, not entirely sure) - because the RPG part plays a much smaller role in determining success or failure.

If you still do not understand the difference between action RPG like Gothic and a more pure RPG like Morrowind, I don't know what else I can do for you.
Neither is an inherently better or worse concept, it is just about what you prefer to play. More action, or more RPG.

 

[Funposter]

It's basically just an action game.

There's nothing inherently wrong with "action combat" of this sort in the is essentially an action rpg.

But Morrowind isn't very much of an action RPG. It has certain action elements, but they are very low compared to later titles in the series.

It depends on what you consider an "Action RPG" since that term has a very loose definition. Strictly speaking, anything with real-time combat is an Action RPG, as that alone distinguishes them from Turn-Based and RTWP systems. However, when many people use the term, they seem to be referring to games that have more of an action focus while featuring certain features of RPGs, such as stat building and progression, non-linearity, player agency in affecting change in the story etc. By that most loose of definitions, you could consider Grand Theft Auto V an Action RPG, and it's why many people have taken to using "ARPG" as a catch-all term for Diablo clones. Obviously GTA isn't an RPG, and many people on this website would argue that games like Diabo and Path of Exile are not, either.

Morrowind's lack of "action" focus compared to later games in the series is not because it is less of an Action RPG. It is because it is less of an Action-Adventure game, and more of an RPG.

 

[Makabb]

Every Elder Scrolls is a hiking simulator

 

[thesheeep]

Every Elder Scrolls is a hiking simulator

I don't think anyone denied that...

 

[lukaszek]

deterministic system > RNG

 

[TemplarGR]

And here's your average Joe's main complaint about the game:

Say whatever you want about Angry Shill Joe, he is right about the lack of fast travel. You have to be an unemployed retard or a 12 year old to like walking everywhere.

 

[Machocruz]

The only things about Morrowind that have aged horribly are parts of the UI and the walking speed.
Seriously, that walking speed...
I have no clue how I ever played that without the mod that makes movement bearable.

I still think the weird-ass combination of roll-to-hit plus having to aim and hit enemies yourself is pretty dumb.

Nah, this is the best part about it.
As it should be in an RPG, your character's stats + RNG, not the player's physical skills, determine if something was hit or not. All you do is decide when to attack (and which enemy/direction). The only thing it lacked were dodge/miss animations to make things a little clearer.
I truly wish more games would make use of this system instead of Skyrim's action combat. I don't hate Skyrim's combat, I can deal with it, but it certainly lacks in RPG-ness. It's basically just an action game.

Quite. Your average joe gamer (not referring to anyone in this discussion) that you usually see bashing the combat, doesn't understand and can't articulate that the main issue is the lack of defensive animations for enemies. So they take it at face value that you are standing in front of someone that is standing directly in front of you and missing because your character is retarded or the game is broken, not because their defense was better than your offense for that particular exchange. This is the same reason that the same kind of people think Turn-Based combat is a bunch of people standing around literally taking turns instead of an abstraction of time + time management feature, because they don't understand that (among many things) one character is actively defending while one is attacking, and one character is attacking before the other because they are faster and/or have the initiative. What's the alternative, attacking at the same time? Yeah, good for dual kill if your character is on some suicide attack shit. What they think is happening, because of lack of animation, is someone is standing with their arms hanging by their sides while someone is whacking them with an axe. Or, in the case of Morrowind, you are missing a scrib that is just standing in place, an easy target. Imagine if the thing scurried around like a cockroach. One of the good things about NWN was that it had some defensive animations. But even today, games do not have full defensive animations, the only difference is you always hit and your stats only determine damage done. What a shitty resolution to the problem, for a RPG.

Not to say the combat is great outside of this. Even if you were to hit all the time in MW, the feedback isn't very satisfying.

 

[Deleted Member 16721]

It's the same people that think AC in D&D 3.5 is dumb because "it's only chance to hit". AC in D&D is like Morrowind in that it's a blanket or umbrella of all the ways you can avoid taking direct damage in combat. The animations aren't there so people get confused, but your character may be parrying, blocking, shifting a shoulder to get a graze attack or miss, the armor may absorb the attack and so on. NWN had dodge animations which did help, if Morrowind had the same thing you'd see less confused people I think. The idea is that the enemy is moving around, or has good defenses, dodging, absorbing attacks which just graze/miss, etc., but the animations show none of that. So people think that first person view equals FPS combat. I love Morrowind for being a true CRPG that places dice-rolls and character stats above all else. But instead of thinking "hey, this dumb crab is right in front of me why can't I hit??" think more along the lines of "this shifty crab with a hard shell is shrugging off my weak attacks because I'm not skilled with the blade I'm using. I better improve my skills, etc." Long live Morrowind and Kingmaker.

 

[glass blackbird]

I don't have any problem with roll to hit, I actually don't like action combat that much at all. I'd be much happier if it was just target, roll to hit, and I didn't have to manually aim the bow with the awkward crosshair

 

[thesheeep]

I don't have any problem with roll to hit, I actually don't like action combat that much at all. I'd be much happier if it was just target, roll to hit, and I didn't have to manually aim the bow with the awkward crosshair

The bow aiming is indeed a bit of a weirdness.
Since it is just normal in FP games to look around using the mouse, using the same method to select a target is just logical.
But in the case of ranged combat and moving enemies, that leads to the FPS "feeling" despite just being a target selection (and you can still miss despite having the crosshair at the right position).

Not sure what could be done to improve that...
Maybe an alternative selection mode, similar to what some games (like Hellgate: London) do. You press ALT, and that gives you a normal mouse pointer that can be used to click on stuff. If that mode would also pause the game, that could solve the problem.
Could also be used to select abilities, etc. without having to do it in real time.

 

[RapineDel]

Morrowind is a step down from Gothic but it has sheer moments of brilliance that do match up to it, you just don't see them very often.

I've been replaying it recently and there's an exceptional quest that sends you after a bandit who's gone into hiding in a cave. Sounds like another run of the mill kill quest but as you enter, there are no enemies and you eventually come across a note and sword, the note is what is thought to be a note between the guy you're looking for and one of his men who he tells to continue watching the entrance to their stash. You find this guards camp further on and a door, you enter and its actually one of the many tombs in the game so you get attacked by a bunch of skeletons/bone lords but no signs of the bandits. After searching around the cave I finally noticed a small alcove and had to levitate up and sure enough all the bandits were hidden here, after you kill them all there's another note which tells you what they were up too. The whole thing was a trap to lure adventurers into the tomb to their deaths both to keep a certain ghoul enemy at bay and to get the loot from the dead victims.

The brilliance of this quest wasn't so much the story behind the game, if it had been done in a way that was scripted, with cutscenes like in most games you wouldn't even remember it but because it all happened organically, and you felt like you fell for the trap as well it's a feeling that you rarely get in gaming.

Unfortunately these moments don't happen often enough and plenty of Morrowind is just fetch quests and more of the same but the game is worth playing for moments like these alone. Its a shame Bethesda went in the direction of Oblivion after this because if they had of channeled the best of Morrowind they might of been onto something.