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Grand Strategy Imperator: Rome - the new grand strategy from Paradox

Theodora

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Kinda disappointed that the subjects overhaul got shelved, though the minor trade rework that's replacing it makes more sense than the current system (kinda a pattern in the changes, from an antiquity obsessed weirdo's perspective). Also cool to learn that they don't put their employees through crunch (should've assumed though, given Sweden lol).

79f3p3N.png


Reading is always best but a good video has it's own value. Animation on top of a map helps better comprehend the relevant geography and movements of armies and people. A good narrator that's conversant with the sources is able to deliver the narrative in a more interesting way and add potentially valuable commentary. With animation there's room to inject some humor and make the history more alive.

In general I'd say the real value of animation with history is what it offers for depicting battles / formations, like how Rome's triplex acies actually functioned.

Haven't played this one, and I probably won't- seeing as how most people don't like it.
But dang it, it looks so pretty. I love the UI design.

Most of the people shitting on it haven't played it. Frankly I've never seen a game change so much (and that's a good thing). As long as Johan stays away and it continues to get attention (internal funding), it's going somewhere good.
 
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The trade idea rework is cool as it is about time not lal good were worth the same. Finally. I wonder though where the trade income comes from, if it has been removed from the game. But I can still see it on the screenshot.

However, the trade fix (calling it a rework is a bit of a strech, beccause of what Im about to explain), seems half completed. Since release I:R has had the problem of lack of surplus of trade goods. It doesn't matter how many trade routes you can have. What the incentive of having more pops that produce trade routs if you won't be able to have anything to import?

For the devs info and help, I have kinda sorta fixed this in my mod "Realistic Pops", i recommend them to play it to get inspiration. Freemen need to produce tradegoods. And lots of them. And the number of slaves needed needs to be reduced. Not only for trade to be actually a things, but because the AI doesn't know how to produce surpluses. And honestly, is not handed well by the player in the current system either. What limits trade shouldn't be the number of trade surpluses, which is non existen, but the nuber of trade goods. They've figured that out with the pops producing new trade routs. Okay, but now the other half of the puzzle, why have more pops that produce trade routes if there are no trade goods available unless you play in the middle east? And not even then, as they soon run out.

The other part of the problem comes from the pop system of ratios itself. As long as you can spam a pop type by simply just spaming a building without a limit for 50 gold, any system regarding pops is gonna be broken. Pop ratios cannot come from building buildings which doesn't have any cap, soft or other wise and doesn't require anything or isn't based on anything other than having 50 gold, which everyone has. So I could spam in my capital Courts and have 100% of nobles and all of them happy yay! And produce 20 trade routes (of which I could only fill 10 tops because there are not enough trade surplus, and I'd have to stop exporting of all trade goods, conquer a lot and be self sufficient with the tradegoods within my empire. Which to be honest, is not quite how trade work).

I fixed this also in my mods. What does a city require to have wealthy pops? Well, wealth. And how you represent wealth in this game? Through the number of trade routes, civilization number, and most importantly, availablity of goods. I can hardly imagine a city with rich citizens and nobles that has only cattle, wine, horses and wood and grain. So in my mod what I have done (and it works very well), is remove the pop ratios from buildings, and add them to trade goods. You want more citizens? Well, you better be able to bring clothes, honey, wine, clothes, gold, glass, marble, etc to your city or you won't be having many citizens. That gives the game more realistic pop ratios, being citizens between 5-15% of your population, and being freemen the most numerous.

Because at the end of the day, if you make the trade system more importance (which it definitely needs), but you don't give trade surplus to play with, it falls short and it fails its purpose while only helping further megacities, which should be tackled, not enhanced even further.

With all this put together you have a much more important trade system, but because it is so important, there is also almost always trade goods available. Does this mean you will always have anything you need and want? No, as you're still limited by your population numbers and number of trade routes. So its up to you how to get those, wheather playing tall, investing int rade routes, building up your cities and attracting inmigrations, or going out to conquer those resources investing on war instead.

PS: Also, pop capacity is also somthing you can't no longer spam with endless buildings in my mod. That is awful gameplay and unrealistic. Now it comes from number of traderoutes, and civilization level as well as food stored, fixing the problem of megacities.

Please, I strongly encourage the devs to have a look at my mod and get inspiration from there. It fixes some of the issues the game has and that this patch hasn't figured out how to work out.
 

Theodora

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Speaking of books, here's another one for you.

Already read it ^^ big fan of Le Guin in general.

That forum post you quoted ... besides being hard to read from how boring they are,

Well, you better be able to bring clothes, honey, wine, clothes, gold, glass, marble, etc to your city or you won't be having many citizens.

Strikes me as a painfully literalist (in internet speak, autistic) understanding of what this is. The devs even made clear trade is meant to represent you (the state) encouraging private citizens; it shouldn't be perceived that no wine imports = no wine in the city at all. I don't mean to be mean over their weird English, but it doesn't strike me as a useful take at all.

Also you might want to link his mod or his post or something. https://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=1827794265

I don't think it could possibly be worth it though.
 
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Lol, I can (and do) read Caesar in Latin.

Furi et Aureli, comites Catulli,
sive in extremos penetrabit Indos,
litus ut longe resonante Eoa
tunditur unda,

sive in Hyrcanos Arabasve molles,
seu Sacas sagittiferosve Parthos,
sive quae septemgeminus colorat
aequora Nilus,

sive trans altas gradietur Alpes
Caesaris visens monimenta magni,
Gallicum Rhenum, horribile aequor, ulti-
mosque Britannos,

omnia haec, quaecumque feret voluntas
caelitum, temptare simul parati,
pauca nuntiate meae puellae
non bona dicta.

:greatjob:
 

Theodora

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Life of the Party

Latin poetry messed up my perspective on poetry in general. (In a good way. ^^)

Ille, deae donis et tanto laetus honore,
expleri nequit atque oculos per singula volvit
miraturque interque manus et bracchia versat
terribilem cristis galeam flammasque vomentem
fatiferumque ensem, loricam ex aere rigentem
sanguineam ingentem, qualis cum caerula nubes
solis inardescit radiis longeque refulget;
tum levis ocreas electro auroque recocto
hastamque et clipei non enarrabile textum.
Illic res Italas Romanorumque triumphos
haud vatum ignarus venturique inscius aevi
fecerat ignipotens, illic genus omne futurae
stirpis ab Ascanio. pugnataque in ordine bella.

It really involves that feeling of unwrapping a puzzle, but when it clicks and you get it it's oh so satisfying :) (and I don't pretend to find this anywhere near as approachable as Caesar, haha, I just think it's rather a powerful passage).
 
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Played some Ebla.

It's an interesting position, one of strength but surrounded by potential enemies on all four sides and with the risk of being continuously dragged into conflicts you don't care for.

My northern ally went through a civil war that extended from Ebla's northern border all the way to the Taurus, which really tested the way this game handles supplies. Of course, the lack of forts and the way they work combined with the way mercenaries work turned the whole affair into the definition of popamole, with the never-ending pursuits of microstacks reminiscent of Benny Hill, which then only gets amplified by having to battle all four sides of the world simultaneously.

I wouldn't necessarily call it difficult since you can always outwit the AI but it would also be a stretch to call it fun.

This game should really be grateful for its setting.
 
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Hello all!

Today @Arheo and I will be covering the upcoming rework of republic government mechanics.

First up is Arheo:

To begin with, I’d like to explain a bit about the process that led to the changes you’ll hear about.

The republican senate mechanics began their life as a ‘catch-all’ government type that was intended to represent all democratic nations on the map. During development, we realised we wanted to be able to have the senate able to act as a core consideration in a republic player’s game loop, by adding the ability for our Content Designers to add weights to individual actions, so that each faction could simulate an ‘opinion’, depending what you wanted to do.

It succeeded in part; the senate could be manipulated if you knew where to look, yet it was often very unclear why the senate voted any given way, without scrolling through a yard of tooltips and numbers. Perhaps even more importantly, it became such a huge task to consider every time we wanted to add new character or diplomatic actions, that ultimately it had to go.

So we went back to the drawing board. I had several primary goals in mind for the faction rework:
  • That it should more accurately represent the political make-up of the roman senate
  • That the senate still had the ability to get in your way and be an important, distinctive part of republic gameplay
  • That we bring characters and votes more closely together
  • That factions are much more dynamic, and can, in future, be expanded upon to add all manner of new content to nations
I’ll hand over to @Trin Tragula here, who’ll explain quite how we went about fulfilling these aims.

The Republican Senate

In a Republic the citizens of a state exercise power through an assembly and the most well known such assembly in our game is probably the Roman Senate.The historical senate did not have parties as such, but at any given time there would often be factions gathering senators around them.

While all senators had the right to vote it was also not always the case that everyone made the choice of how to exercise that vote for themselves.

Just as often a senator would vote to satisfy obligations that he might have to one of the more politically active members of the senate, or along friendship lines. Likewise any assembly made out of people will feature some that are more impressionable than others.

In the Roman Senate those who voted without speaking were often referred to as “Pedarii” since voting was often conducted by Senators moving from one side of the assembly to the other to show their support or disagreement with the current speaker, and any politically ambitious Senator would have to have earned the trust of a number of such pedarii. Senate politics was often as much about how many others you could mobilize around you as it was about high ideas and ideologies.

Which is not to say that ideals were unimportant in politics, no senate relies only on favors to function, but the system that has been in the game up until now has been relying on parties always voting exactly along the lines of an imagined ideology on every issue, when in reality this influence is less direct and influential politicians could most of the time get support for their ideas based on a combination of trust and individual merit.

mainwindow.png


In the Menander update we have revamped the party system altogether. Gone is the large number of generic parties that corresponded to vague ideas and instead we have gone with parties that correspond to political groupings of the era. This also means that we now have 3 parties at any given time for you to balance, with their membership and influence more in flux. Rather than trying to map the parties to issues you care about we have also tried to make the issues the parties care about matter to you (more on that below).

Parties

The Roman Parties are based on the political groupings that existed in the later part of the life of the Republic though they do not mimic them exactly:

Optimates

This party represents primarily aristocrats of ancient pedigree. They oppose the rise of New Men and the influence of common people on the senate. The Optimates believe that the populares are a destructive force that will wreck the ancient privileges and traditions of the republic.

Boni

The Boni try to strike a balance between looking to the needs and wants of the poor masses, while still preserving stability and acting through gradual reform. They believe that the way forward is through the senate, and using the existing rules, rather than radical reform and empowering popular movements. The boni believe they are looking out for the best of the country as a whole instead of supporting any particular group in society. Their opponents believe they will favor the status quo at any cost.

In Roman historiography the Boni and Optimates are often used as synonyms. Here we use them to separate those that seek to protect and preserve the ideals of the old Republic, such as Cicero, from those that more purely seek power on the behalf of those already privileged.

Populares:

The “men of the people”, claim to act in the interest of the common people such as indebted farmers, poor aristocrats and veterans that could not adapt to life after war. The Populares oppose the Optimates in almost every way. They are happy to overthrow old traditions and the privileges of the few, to empower and enrich the many and those who can sway them.

Votes & Party Membership

In the Menander update the votes that the parties of the Senate wield are no longer dependent on discrete modifiers, instead they come from the characters that are part of its membership.

Every character in a country will now have a Senate Influence rating, and when added together for all characters in a party this determines how many votes a party has.

charactervotes.png


How much Senate Influence each character has can vary greatly. With some being good for many more votes than others. This means that it will now be possible to handle a particularly troublesome party by trying to get rid of their influential members. Should such a character abandon one party for another it will also now have a much more deeply felt effect.

The Senate influence of a character is based on their power base. But it is also modified by a number of factors, such as traits (an Orator will have increased influence, as will characters with high popularity) or jobs.

A character being made governor or general will see their influence sharply reduced, despite their now increased power base as it is hard (if not impossible) to exert influence over the Senate when you are not in the capital.

partyconviction.png


Likewise the factors that contribute to a character changing their party membership have been revisited, with their personality traits and social standing now playing a much bigger role in where their loyalties lie. Some further examples to illustrate this are is that some characters that are less independent minded will tend towards supporting the party of their Head of Family, while others would shun the party of their Head of Family for exactly that reason.

Party Approval & Abuse of Power

senateblocks.png


Just as before the parties of the Senate will be able to vote on many of the actions you take, and will be able to obstruct the rule of a weak consul. As seen above their power to support or obstruct your actions hinges on the influence of their members. Their willingness to support you however is no longer dependent on the action being taken. Instead every party will now have an approval value, reflecting the favor you have gathered with this party through your actions as a ruler. If you give land to heads of families the Optimates will approve, but if you hold triumphs for Minor Characters they will lose approval. Members of the Boni will applaud upholding the ideals of the Republic, while Populares and Optimates will both favor curtailing them in various ways.

Ideas and political intrests thus remain very important to the functioning of the Senate, but you can also reliably muster support for your actions by ensuring that all parties get to do at least some of what it is they want.

lawsapproval.png


Approval is useful since it determines how parties will vote. As long as you have sufficient approval from the parties in your Senate you can do _almost_ anything (the current Support you have in the Senate is something you can always see in the top bar).

Should you abuse this power however it may come back to harm you, the parties have opinions on everything you do and if you use their votes to do things they do not approve of they are unlikely to support you in the future.

This is especially true if you stop them from pushing through their Party Agendas...

Party Agendas & The Consular Veto

agenda.png


At any given time every party in your Senate will have an Agenda that they wish to see fulfilled. These are always visible in the government screen and can range from quite reasonable things like improving the infrastructure in some province to far less easily accommodate things such as the changing the laws, or confiscating land from Heads of Family.

Sometimes the parties will even propagate for the declaration of war on other countries.

Should you at any time fulfill the Agenda of a party you will have their gratitude, in the form of a nice boost to their approval in the Senate.

You cannot however rely on the parties staying silent about their Agendas. If one of their members holds the consulship they will expect to be able to fulfill their Agenda. As long as there is sufficient approval you can be sure that the party in power will try to push its Agenda through the Senate. When this happens you will be presented with a choice of either allowing it or using the Consular Veto, which will stop the agenda from being pushed through during this term.

Opposing the ruling faction can be costly however. Using the veto against the ruling faction will see their approval plummet, in a way that may be hard to recover in a timely manner.

agendapush.png


More Republics, More Parties

This Diary has focused on the Roman parties but we are revamping the system for all Republics in the game. Menander will also feature 3 new parties for other Republics, which are more inspired by the world of Greek Politics, but also more general since they need to work in many parts of the world.

These parties are:

The Oligarchs

This party represents the richest members of your society, as well as the ancient noble families. They seek to increase their wealth and power and are less afraid of making use of the masses to reach their goals than the Roman Optimates are.

The Democrats

Democrats seek to preserve the freedoms of the citizens in their society, they are less focused on personal honor than the Roman populares but just as intent on acting against the interests of the Oligarchs.

The Traditionalists

The traditionalists are focused on avoiding disturbing the gods and preserving the privileges of the priesthood. They are no pacifists but they will oppose the sacking of holy sites of your religion and will in general take a conservative position on many things. Where the Boni yearn for the old Roman virtues and the founding principles of the Republic the Traditionalists are far less concerned with such political ideals.

Since we want to take the time to make them special we have for now focused on making the Roman parties perform as we want, and adding a reasonable general setup for the other (largely but not only Greek) Republics. It was important to us that even these generic parties should model real life social struggles and interest groups, since that was in our opinion one of the major failings of the old system.

In the future however we want to add more country or culture specific parties to Republics around the world. Something this new system should lend itself well to support.

As usual anything you see here is subject to change to some degree even if the underlying mechanics described are accurate for the current state in development.

Whether you are playing with the Roman parties or the more general ones we think these changes significantly change how Republics play and we hope you will enjoy it
 

Theodora

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You always get here before me, LotP. :P

Really a fan of the Roman factions representing the lived reality, rather than unfamiliar abstractions like "religous" and "civic".

EfnQMKt.png


Will be interesting to see how they handle non-generic senate factions in future. Anyone know what this would maybe be in Carthage or somewhere further east? Would also be cool to have some shift in the default parties for differing kinds of republics. After all, a religous faction (or two) makes sense in a 'theocratic republic'.

The consular veto is also a nice touch, too.

edit:
Trin Tragula said:
Non-roman factions have their own agendas (with some overlap).

And I should add that the Optimates are not the only faction that can ask for war, the populares will also sometimes advocate for this, but the two parties have different logic for how they pick their goals
:)

https://forum.paradoxplaza.com/foru...-diary-25th-of-may-2020.1393478/post-26601602
 
Last edited:

Tigranes

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OK, this particular change seems like a really, really good & important one.

  • That it should more accurately represent the political make-up of the roman senate
  • That the senate still had the ability to get in your way and be an important, distinctive part of republic gameplay
  • That we bring characters and votes more closely together
  • That factions are much more dynamic, and can, in future, be expanded upon to add all manner of new content to nations

It is fucking criminal that this was basically not done at all in the initial release, when it should have been one of the number one things on the feature list.

I'm not sure about dissociating Senate approval from the nature of the action being taken, but every other change seems sensible stuff that will measurably increase the larpability.

I would say that with this and older updates doing things like story missions, you can finally play as Rome and sort of get in that historical mood. I finally gave this a whirl and at 1.4 it's still kind of bland biscuit but at least with some flavour.

The hyperpassive AI still seems to be there, though.
 

thesecret1

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Oh my god, they finally got rid of the nonsensical "Populist" faction? Can't believe it. Though only having three parties feels a little lacking.

I would say that with this and older updates doing things like story missions, you can finally play as Rome and sort of get in that historical mood. I finally gave this a whirl and at 1.4 it's still kind of bland biscuit but at least with some flavour.
Judging by Paradox's past achievements, it will forever be a bland biscuit. But the modders can use such things to create great things.
 

Theodora

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Oh my god, they finally got rid of the nonsensical "Populist" faction? Can't believe it. Though only having three parties feels a little lacking.

Huh? Populist is essentially still there ... what do you think populares means? And yeah, in some places more would make sense (although more player constructed environs like an aristocratic/oligarchic republic with multiple ethnicities in their noblity, or else a plutocratic republic with a generally diverse citizenry). But in Rome, optimates, populares, and 'Cicero' are basically the lines over which politics played out.
 
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He probably means Populists being barely anything more than the game's antagonists.

I can't say I loved the mission trees I've tried. It all feels so rushed, artificial, you run through them, press start and get claims and vassals before you do anything at all. I'm not sure I'd even call them missions since I certainly didn't feel like I deserved to be awarded with the Pan-Italic Congress and the Encourage Expansion claims for simply entering the game and clicking once or twice.

With Athens, I basically just wanted to be an independent democracy so I became an independent democracy.

As for biscuits, it's too late now but here's how I'd build an antiquity game.

I alluded to some of this months ago, but you start with the concept of citizenship, and you move from there. You ask questions about the concept. What does it mean to be a citizen? What does a citizen need? What does he want? You focus not on conquerors but on reformers. Not on Caesar but on the Gracchi. Sulla and Caesar and Thurinus certainly do have their roles to play, no doubt, but they're not where you start just like Trajan isn't where you start. Instead it's Brutus and Marius. You focus on Draco, Solon, Cleisthenes, Ephialtes, Pericles. You focus on Lycurgus and Chilon, on Diocles and Timoleon. What did those people do? What did they try to do? Why did they do the things they did? How was political power distributed? Where did it lie? Who had it, who didn't, for which reasons?

And then you add some flavor, you add the four temperaments, Roman virtues, classical elements, schools of philosophy, etc. The character system, if you already insist on having one, should reflect the spirit of the age.

Johan said Imperator is supposed to be about loyalty, but antiquity is not about loyalty, certainly not more than any other era and probably less than some. Just because Caesar's crossing the Rubicon is its most famous event doesn't make it its heart's blood.

Right now the best thing about this game is that it reminds me of Alma-Tadema.

Lawrence_Alma-Tadema_-_Ask_Me_No_More.jpg
 

thesecret1

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Populist is essentially still there ... what do you think populares means?
Populists are by no means there anymore. A completely different faction with similar name is there. Populists were some abstracted abortion that gave you negative modifiers across the board and was set up as some manner of bad guys that you should prevent from getting in power. It was the same in EU: Rome. Their replacement with something that actually isn't just "bad guys, keep their influence low or suffer arbitrary debuffs" is a major incline in this aspect.
 

Tigranes

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yeah, populists currently play out like a punishment: do too many things and you get a tax of populist maluses like -33 influence gain.
 

Theodora

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Populists are by no means there anymore. A completely different faction with similar name is there. Populists were some abstracted abortion that gave you negative modifiers across the board and was set up as some manner of bad guys that you should prevent from getting in power. It was the same in EU: Rome. Their replacement with something that actually isn't just "bad guys, keep their influence low or suffer arbitrary debuffs" is a major incline in this aspect.

Yeah, it's a great change (even just adding political ambiguity). But it's a weird way to phrase it given the replacement's name and historically going to civil war over populist changes. :P

And then you add some flavor, you add the four temperaments, Roman virtues, classical elements, schools of philosophy, etc. The character system, if you already insist on having one, should reflect the spirit of the age.

What do you actually mean by these? Are they just names for similar abstractions, or is it something entirely different?

Hopefully the schools of philosophy show up at some point, though understandably casting them upon the whole of the map prior to Roman expansion is awkward. It works for the Hellenic world (obviously), and you could add some early vedic stuff of course, but the intersection is awkward. Does Buddhism become a philosophy or a religion?
 
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What do you actually mean by these? Are they just names for similar abstractions, or is it something entirely different?

Depends on how deep your character system is and what role the characters even play in your game but theoretically the temperaments, for instance, should influence events, decisions, ambitions, loyalties, etc. I suppose they could also add +1 to A or -1 to B, but that's secondary.

Hopefully the schools of philosophy show up at some point, though understandably casting them upon the whole of the map prior to Roman expansion is awkward. It works for the Hellenic world (obviously), and you could add some early vedic stuff of course, but the intersection is awkward. Does Buddhism become a philosophy or a religion?

Just rename it to 'worldview' or some such and then give the Greeks their schools of philosophy while the others get their own approximations.

Or they don't.

I don't think it's even necessary for everyone to have their own approximations of everything. In many ways this approach is precisely what so often brings the word 'bland' to discussions of Paradox games.
 

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