Grand Strategy Imperator: Rome - the new grand strategy from Paradox

[Theodora]

Actually we kinda have, if theories are true, vistula veneti (1st century BC) and neuri (from herodotus), if lusatian culture is protoslavic or proto baltoslavic.

I thought the first mention of the vistula veneti was in the 1st century AD? Someone like Pliny.

 

[Zariusz]

Actually we kinda have, if theories are true, vistula veneti (1st century BC) and neuri (from herodotus), if lusatian culture is protoslavic or proto baltoslavic.

I thought the first mention of the vistula veneti was in the 1st century AD? Someone like Pliny.

Yes you are right, i made typo.

 

[Theodora]

I guess alll I mean is that the game starts near half a millenium before we've any notion of slavs being around, so including them would be a push. Sorry diversity fans. ;(

 

[Lone Wolf]

3rd Century BC

Either the Slavs entered the world fully formed, holding dominion over much of Eastern Europe, or early Slavic culture had to be pervasive and extensive far earlier than the ADs. Obviously, no written records = fragmented guesswork, at best, but the same holds true for any other postulation.

 

[Agame]

Friendly reminder this game is still a POS and Johan is a dried up hack.

Carry on please.

 

[Alexios]

Friendly reminder this game is still a POS and Johan is a dried up hack.

Carry on please.

Johan doesn't even have anything to do with Imperator. The only game he still has his mitts on is EU4.

 

[Agame]

Friendly reminder this game is still a POS and Johan is a dried up hack.

Carry on please.

Johan doesn't even have anything to do with Imperator. The only game he still has his mitts on is EU4.

He was literally the Game Directer for I:R, and yes they kicked him off because he created a steaming pile of cow poop.

 

[Theodora]

He was literally the Game Directer for I:R, and yes they kicked him off because he created a steaming pile of cow poop.

Then be glad he's far away from it. The new lead is systematically replacing all of his arcade-y nonsense.

3rd Century BC

I mean, it's just one conjecture. I'm not sure why to credit it anymore than the rest.

Most of the area conjectured to be the home to early slavs is not territory in the game, which is what I said earlier. Though you may wish to take more notice that the Baltic area, currently only inhabited by the Aesti, is named Veneti. Therefore I'd say they're putting (Proto-)Balto-Slavic peoples together for now, which isn't entirely unreasonable. I doubt this is going to change much given the scope of the game, although it might be good to add small pockets of PBS peoples to the west of the Dniester (which would be even more speculative), though it would truly just be pockets and almost misleading to look at, given the game and its representations ends there. (I also think we should give more credance to how long it took Rome's far reach to even hear about these peoples; though I know that's not going to slide with any passionate Balkan boyo.)

If Paradox 'fix their shit' with their development process, I'd really like to see a migration period game, where Slavs would be much more relevant. But for now if you want to larp your ancestors your best bet is to migrate from the Baltics down to the Balkans.

 

[fantadomat]

He was literally the Game Directer for I:R, and yes they kicked him off because he created a steaming pile of cow poop.

Then be glad he's far away from it. The new lead is systematically replacing all of his arcade-y nonsense.

Fuck no! He is now shitting up all over the new EU4 patch,he should have stayed with this irrelevant game that has 500 people playing it,not fucking up already ready patch! That patch has been worked on more or less a year at this point,and it will be filled with mediocre shit that it could have been done by a modders in a month. I can't wait for it because i want to see my favourite mods updated lol. As of Johan,well he should have shoved in to management division as a thanks for his years of work and kept away from interfering with the creative process.

 

[Theodora]

Ilu Fanta but idk what to say, I'm not going to be sad that someone who didn't really get the period was replaced by someone who's self-evidently passionate about it. I care more about Imperator's potential than EU4's future.

And I mean, were you any more enthusiastic about EU4 under Jake? At the very least one might hope fucking up so mightily on Imperator's launch was humbling. I don't get the sustained criticism, because yes it was arcade-y and lacking in diversity; but every patch since has been a complete 180 from the original EU style design, towards dynamic systems over buttons and mana.

 

[fantadomat]

Imperator's potential

LoL sure,dream on chav

were you any more enthusiastic about EU4 under Jake?

Actually yes,the dude is pretty close to a prestigious codexer. Fuck he even have playtrough of Xenonauts . The guy did knew that it is not just tweaking numbers and adding +5% mechanics. The guy gets roleplaying and that the game lacked flavour. He was the dude that forced them to get all the countries different ideas,and he was the dude that came up with the current missions. He wanted to make you feel unique playing as different countries,which is good thing in my book. I must have wasted more than 5000 hours at this point in this game,doubt that there are many codexers that have played as much as me,the shit that jake added to the game was good shit for extending the life time of the game.

 

[Zariusz]

But paradox still atleast should expand mauretania and numidia, now its just civilisation until future roman borders and wastelands beyond that.
BTW What do you think about that Bronze Age mod? I had fun playing it.

 

[Theodora]

LoL sure,dream on chav

If it lives long enough, it'll get there.

And fair enough I only asked because I'm so used to seeing people be generally negative about the past few years. (But ain't that already the way of it?)

I am hopeful that Johan can't fuck up this patch too much; it would take a lot of late reworking to undo the changes that've been talked about for over a year, and the flavour shit (which I 200% agree on). Johan has weird priorities, but I don't think he's a straight-up fool by any stretch. If only because of the pressure from others, after exactly this issue with Imperator, I doubt they'll be culling all the things that looked set to give Europe a new life. In short, it can't be a bad thing that they're taking their time, and Jake's influence on things is still going to be there heavily if only down to the time spent on it.

What do you think about that Bronze Age mod? I had fun playing it.

Seems pretty good, though could do with some polishing on the new gameplay mechanics; I assume they're prioritising the map though, which is fair. I have some anxiety about the historical reality of the whole thing, given there's a lot of highly speculative areas of map at this time (speaking of, TBA was a long ass time, does the mod have a date?). At the very least, still waiting on my tits-out, Minoan priestess-led matriarchy GYNCECOCRACY.

 

[fantadomat]

I am hopeful that Johan can't fuck up this patch too much; it would take a lot of late reworking to undo the changes that've been talked about for over a year, and the flavour shit (which I 200% agree on). Johan has weird priorities, but I don't think he's a straight-up fool by any stretch. If only because of the pressure from others, after exactly this issue with Imperator, I doubt they'll be culling all the things that looked set to give Europe a new life. In short, it can't be a bad thing that they're taking their time, and Jake's influence on things is still going to be there heavily if only down to the time spent on it.

I do enjoy your naivete lol. Johan is a fucking faggot,it is clash of egos and he will be happy to shit up all over the patch and EU4 to boost his retarded self worth. The patch was ready to release by january,then johan came and forced jake out. Now he is reworking everything jake came up in to his autistic +5% garbage bonus mechanics. It is all about ego and forcing jake out so he could secure his position at the company. Johan got scared because his magnum opus is a soulless garbage that nobody plays while people were hyped for the mega patch that jake was leading. So he just used his faggot shit and pushed the dude out so he could take all the laurels and show the bosses that people still like his shit.

 

[Life of the Party]

Years ago when genetic genealogy was first becoming a thing I remember reading about Slavs being a product of Sarmatization of Germanized Celts, that is the Bastarnae. I don't know how popular that theory eventually became, or if it did at all, but I found it amusing how it actually provided an idea of Slavs not even being a thing in this period.

Still, the data we collect, analyze and utilize in an attempt to reconstruct history is as a rule very scattered, broken, contradictory. We use some combination of written sources, archaeology, linguistics and these days even genetics to paint a picture of the past that often ends up looking like one of those reconstructions of ancient marble statues and wall paintings where we apply an averaged color over the entire surface.

I can't really say there's anything at all we know about, for instance, the Illyrians. Or Scandinavians. Or really, most of the map. It seems weird to draw a red line at Slavs.

But it's okay, I'd rather play as Greeks anyway.

speaking of, TBA was a long ass time, does the mod have a date?

Anyway, the start date is 2115 BC. I believe that's the year the Gutians sent Akkad to the list of lost cities.

 

[Theodora]

Johan got scared because his magnum opus is a soulless garbage that nobody plays while people were hyped for the mega patch that jake was leading. So he just used his faggot shit and pushed the dude out so he could take all the laurels and show the bosses that people still like his shit.

Where are you getting that from? I thought Jake left because ultimately working at paradox isn't great pay-wise even 'at the top' of dev stuff. And by luck that got Johan pulled away from Imperator (though tbh I don't see that lasting anyway...).

Happy to be the hopeful and naive one in a sea of grumpy old fucks. ^_^

I can't really say there's anything at all we know about, for instance, the Illyrians. Or Scandinavians. Or really, most of the map. It seems weird to draw a red line at Slavs.

I'd say the line only about makes sense based on ancient interactions. Rome's reach was wide, but didn't interact with the Slavs. Why not?

 

[Life of the Party]

There was the Amber Road although I suppose that's more of a Baltic thing and I believe the Balto-Slavic split was already centuries old by this time.

I think it's mainly about the potential for interaction just like with most of the map's periphery. It's not like Rome interacted a whole lot with Tibet. Or even Ireland.

 

[Theodora]

I think it's mainly about the potential for interaction just like with most of the map's periphery. It's not like Rome interacted a whole lot with Tibet. Or even Ireland.

They did have interactions with Ireland, though. And the whole Tibet thing I'd put down to Rome's interactions with India in general (tradewise), and India having its own ancient literary cultures.

There was the Amber Road although I suppose that's more of a Baltic thing and I believe the Balto-Slavic split was already centuries old by this time.

For sure, but as I understand it they were still very intelligible with one another (and more generally a series of dialects, spread from the Baltics to the northern shores of the Dniester. Hell, Latin dialects weren't that far off Celtic ones

If you've ideas though, I'd be interested in how you'd make them unique or different or relevant in a realistic enough manner.

 

[Life of the Party]

I'd probably just put a few very small tribes with the names like Sporoi, Veneti, Antes, Sclaveni, or some combination, and give them modifiers that improve their assimilation rate.

Are you sure about the Ireland thing? Because I seem to recall those theories involve mythology and folk tales and whatnot. I mean, I guess it's possible one or two Romans here and there but that only makes me think of Aristeas and the one-eyed Arimaspi fighting the gold-guarding griffins up there in Hyperborea.

Speaking of which, this game could really use a bit of Pytheas, Scylax, Eudoxus, Nearchus and the like.

There is certainly something to be said about the domino effect. Events occurring in Tibet that impact India in a way which significantly alters the nature of its interactions with the Graeco-Romans. But even then, I don't see why those criteria shouldn't extend to Germans, Celts or Scytho-Sarmatians, particularly in a game centered on the Mediterranean. Slavs themselves ended up in Europe only because of being pushed and pulled by others.

I don't mind Balts and Slavs being treated as one, that would actually be something new for a change, but right now it says Balts and names and divinities are Baltic so... it is what it is.

I'm not particularly passionate about this, by the way. 500 BC Belarus is hardly a topic that makes a Serb's blood boil. I just found the red line weird... although I suppose I'm willing to accede if they remove every reference to Sweden.

 

[Theodora]

I guess I'd hope they'd flesh it out a bit further if they bother. But I guess between the difference between the game at launch and now is that they would add a lot of small details lilke unique gods, heritages, etc.

Are you sure about the Ireland thing?

It's actually an ongoing debate of increasing likelihood. I'm sorry I don't have a better online resource of the top of my head than wikipedia for this, but it's a decent article. Personally I think it's a bit unlikely that plans to invade and occupy the island were in consideration without some exploration, given its relative proximity and definite trade relations.

Speaking of which, this game could really use a bit of Pytheas, Scylax, Eudoxus, Nearchus and the like.

What do you mean exactly? I'm pretty sure I agree either way but there's mulitple interpretations.

There is certainly something to be said about the domino effect. Events occurring in Tibet that impact India in a way which significantly alters the nature of its interactions with the Graeco-Romans. But even then, I don't see why those criteria shouldn't extend to Germans, Celts or Scytho-Sarmatians, particularly in a game centered on the Mediterranean. Slavs themselves ended up in Europe only because of being pushed and pulled by others.

I suppose it's a matter of degrees? Celts (cough Senones cough) and Germans had extremely direct interactions with Rome, and one could make a fairly descent case for the Sarmatians via the long client status of the Regni Bosporum. And that's the thing with the slavs, their most obvious relevance to Rome's history is being one of the many people's pushing west that caused the Germanic migration in late antiquity. While I've no claim to expertise here, it's not so compelling otherwise. Arguably the riches of India on the otherhand and the trade that resulted from this made the subcontinent and its own influences extremely important in the history of Roman affluence.

I don't mind Balts and Slavs being treated as one, that would actually be something new for a change, but right now it says Balts and names and divinities are Baltic so... it is what it is.

Where does it say Balts in-game? I thought it just used that tag internally. But yeah, that's tricky, sharing them with the name thing. At least the gods side wouldn't be an issue, but the names are tied to the cultural groupings.

I assume there'll be some generally barbarian focused update or expansion (hopefully someone will download EB2 and look at what they did?). Given the period I struggle to imagine what further regional DLC we might see. Gaul, Arabia/Israel, India, maybe wider-Italy?

I'm not particularly passionate about this

Might be alone among your folk.

 

[Life of the Party]

What do you mean exactly? I'm pretty sure I agree either way but there's mulitple interpretations.

Midnight Sunset Invasion, where a son of Boreas unites the Thuleans, Hyperboreans, Arimaspi and Issedones, and invades the dominion of the Horae. The only way to win is to turn Rhine and Danube into a wall of ice.

I suppose it's a matter of degrees? Celts (cough Senones cough) and Germans had extremely direct interactions with Rome, and one could make a fairly descent case for the Sarmatians via the long client status of the Regni Bosporum. And that's the thing with the slavs, their most obvious relevance to Rome's history is being one of the many people's pushing west that caused the Germanic migration in late antiquity. While I've no claim to expertise here, it's not so compelling otherwise. Arguably the riches of India on the otherhand and the trade that resulted from this made the subcontinent and its own influences extremely important in the history of Roman affluence.

I meant the domino effect of Tibet ---> India ---> Rome as being comparable to Slavs ---> Other tribes of Central and Eastern Europe ---> Rome.

Where does it say Balts in-game?

Fair point but I see nothing to indicate they're treating the Aesti as anything other than Balts. Even in game files their culture group is called Baltic.

Given the period I struggle to imagine what further regional DLC we might see. Gaul, Arabia/Israel, India, maybe wider-Italy?

Where's my Thebes?

By the way, you should really try reading Gene Wolfe's Soldier series.

Spoiler

 

[Theodora]

I meant the domino effect of Tibet ---> India ---> Rome as being comparable to Slavs ---> Other tribes of Central and Eastern Europe ---> Rome.

But what difference is it that you're wanting to point out? Or just the similarity of being 'three steps removed'?

Fair point but I see nothing to indicate they're treating the Aesti as anything other than Balts. Even in game files their culture group is called Baltic.

Again, not an expert, but the group name is what left me with that interpretation (it's true that at present, however, it only has a baltic subgroup, in the Aesti people).

Where's my Thebes?

The Nilotic one, the Cilician one, the Ionian one, the Thessalian one, the Trojan one, or the one on mainland Greece...? ^^;

And more to the point, tell me why you care!

By the way, you should really try reading Gene Wolfe's Soldier series.

This looks great, thank you! ^_^ Couldn't have come at a much better time ethier tbh.

 

[Life of the Party]

But what difference is it that you're wanting to point out? Or just the similarity of being 'three steps removed'?

If you add Tibet because of India you might as well add Slavs because of Carpathia or whatever, even without a direct contact with Rome since like we said there was no direct contact between Tibet and Rome, not even through trade as far as I know. The same applies to other peripheral areas of the map, most of which I presume to have been added for similar reasons.

Again, not an expert, but the group name is what left me with that interpretation (it's true that at present, however, it only has a baltic subgroup, in the Aesti people).

I see. So a Veneti group consisting of Aesti, Antes and Sclaveni. Makes sense.

The Nilotic one, the Cilician one, the Ionian one, the Thessalian one, the Trojan one, or the one on mainland Greece...? ^^;

And more to the point, tell me why you care!

The Serbian one.

I guess I developed certain sympathy for them for being stuck between Athens and Sparta (and Persia, obviously, not to mention Macedon) and eventually rising to establish their own hegemony with Epaminondas (an officer and a gentleman) and Pelopidas and trying to do things their own way. And history being what it is, they're the ones who in the end felt the full wrath of that Philip's boy whose name eludes me.

Obviously, the right moment to add their mission tree was Magna Graecia but Paradox ignored both them and Corinth and now half of Greece's big four remains a place fordone, forlorn, unnamed, uncharted, where naught molests the sluggish crotali.

Thebes also plays a somewhat prominent role in the Latro series – as does Pindar – and since you speak Greek you should have fun with some of the names Wolfe uses, like Thought, Rope, Hill, Tower Hill, etc.

 

[Theodora]

I'm obviously missing something in why we're calling Thebes Serbian, but it's been a long day...

I see. So a Veneti group consisting of Aesti, Antes and Sclaveni. Makes sens

Essentially my idea, yeah; with whatever relevant elements fleshed out to whatever extent is normal by then. I imagine at best though it'd be bundled with some updated based around the Germanics, maaaybe the Scythians.

If you add Tibet because of India you might as well add Slavs because of Carpathia or whatever, even without a direct contact with Rome since like we said there was no direct contact between Tibet and Rome, not even through trade as far as I know. The same applies to other peripheral areas of the map, most of which I presume to have been added for similar reasons.

The thing I meant here was that India has a rich ancient civilisation and literature, and therefore is a valid source to use in and of itself. (Same can be said for materials from the Hellenic world, tbh.) Sorry for the confusion, didn't meant to say that Roman ideas were the only thing worth having, so much as as far as Europe's concerned, the elements of known relevance to Rome are the information that we have.

Obviously, the right moment to add their mission tree was Magna Graecia but Paradox ignored both them and Corinth and now half of Greece's big four remains a place fordone, forlorn, unnamed, uncharted, where naught molests the sluggish crotali.

I mean, Thebes was raised by Alexander, so really it's only Corinth that has that much relevance at all left. I'm not sure what a compelling narrative would be to be honest (not that my presently absent creativity should be their excuse ); though Syracuse was a more obvious case given its connection to Sparta, its relevance to the previous 'content pack', and also to the Peloponnesian War(s).

Thebes also plays a somewhat prominent role in the Latro series – as does Pindar – and since you speak Greek you should have fun with some of the names Wolfe uses, like Thought, Rope, Hill, Tower Hill, etc.

Neat ^_^ I'll try to remember to get back to you about them when I get around to them. I get a lot of recommendations and life's kinda chaotic though, so be patient with me lol.

 

[Life of the Party]

Spoiler

Hello and welcome to another Development Diary for Imperator: Rome

Today I am here to talk about Rebellions in the Hellenistic and Republican era, as well as some changes that we are making to the game to accommodate a more historical outcome.

Rebellions in the era of Imperator: Rome

The aftermath of a great deal of Rebellions?

In many ways the era in which our game is set is as much associated with the crumbling of Empires as it is the rise of Rome. Not long prior the Achaemenid Empire was crushed by Alexander the Great, and only a few decades ago his empire then broke apart into pieces, with small regional rulers carving out their own countries from within the empire.

Likewise Rome itself faced local rebellions in various parts of the Empire, both while it was growing and in regions that had been under Roman rule for some time.

Rebellions are something we consider separate from the grand Civil Wars, where the goal was not to carve out a new realm but for Roman politicians and generals to further their ambitions against the Republic itself. Such wars, in which every citizen was supposed to pick a side, we have the Civil War mechanic in the game.

While there is perhaps room for improvement here it does in our opinion reasonably well portray things like the Civil Wars of Sulla or the Dynastic Wars in the Seleucid Empire.

Rebellions in the game on the other hand we have been less happy with. Up until now the rules for a Rebellion have been that once you have a high enough number of people living in disloyal provinces, all such provinces revolt at the same time, in one huge war.

This does perhaps seem to capture the way Alexander’s empire broke apart all at once after his death, but perhaps not for the right reasons. While monarchies are famously unstable on succession, with many rulers spending the first time in power ensuring the loyalty of the provinces they inherited, it is doubtful that all the unhappy people would revolt in a coordinated way throughout your empire. There are very few such grand revolts to find in this era, or even other historical eras.

The gameplay implications were also odd. It meant that expansion in itself was a good way to lower the risk of revolt, since the more land you owned, the more provinces would need to be disloyal before the rebels would dare try their luck.

Rather than a number of small fires that can grow into big ones unless you put them out across a huge realm rebellions are currently either nonexistent or giant wars of independence for all the oppressed peoples in your entire empire.

Changes Rebellions in the Menander Update

With the changes coming to how you handle cultures in the Menander update. With each culture in your empire having its own happiness rating within your country, making all of its pops more or less happy with your rule we are now able to offload more of the rebellion mechanic unto pops, but we don't want to do this by having entire cultures revolt together. This simply does not match the historical reality most of the time, and it is also not very enjoyable to play.

Instead we want rebellions to be affected by things like cultural happiness, but ultimately depend on the happiness of your pops, as they exist in your provinces. When the people of a province has had enough they should rebel, with the possibility of said rebellion growing if more nearby provinces join the independence war.

In the Menander Update Rebellions have been reworked to this end. The national rebellion progress bar has been removed completely and instead the loyalty of each province, dependent on the happiness of the pops living there, is what determines when a rebellion breaks out. The rebels will not wait for a better time to strike, once their patience is up they will declare independence and take their chances.

(Campania declares independence)

Just as before the main contributing factor for province loyalty is unrest, and unrest still comes from the unhappy pops you have in the territories within each your provinces. Together with the cultural happiness changes described in last week's diary this means that if you treat a culture wrong you may well still see the pops of that culture coming out in Rebellion, but it also means that province that is being particularly harshly taxed will have a much shorter patience, and may well rebel from that alone.

When a province revolts it will form a new country, with the local culture and religion that was dominant in the province as its new state culture and state religion. This new country will immediately be thrown into an independence war, with the goal of securing its future independence. Should more provinces in your empire rebel, they will join the ongoing war if they are of the same culture, or start new individual ones if they are not.

While an independence war as a rule starts as a small revolt it can still grow into a bigger rebellion with more and more provinces throwing off the yoke and joining the ongoing war. This is especially likely if the reasons for the unhappiness that caused the revolt was tied to the low cultural happiness of a culture, rather than something more local.

(another province joins the independence war)

Lastly the independence war itself has been updated, instead of a supremacy war, where the way to get a ticking war score over time is to defeat as many as possible of the opponents troops, an independence war now uses a new war goal specific to rebellions.

The rebels are still the aggressors, but they war goal of the independence war is now capturing and holding the rebel capital (consequently it is the capital of the original rebel country that must be defended if more countries join a rebellion). Overall what this means is that in order to put down a rebellion the old owner must bring the fight to the rebels, and the rebels themselves will be able to succeed by just defending themselves, rather than by annihilating all forces of their old oppressors.

(An independence war in action)

What about the problems of monarchs on succession? Since I used it as an example above I will add that in monarchies provinces now take a small one time hit to loyalty whenever succession occurs.

Unrest

Another problem with the old rebellion system is that unrest plays too many roles. Unrest mainly comes from unhappy pops living in a territory, and its main effect is to reduce the loyalty of the province that territory is in. This much is something we like.

But unrest also has a number of other effects such as reducing manpower, taxes, etc, often the very things that the low happiness of your pops have already caused.

In the Menander update we have streamlined unrest a bit. It will now almost only come from one source: Unhappy pops.

Unrest will also no longer have any effect on the economy of a territory in itself at all. When you see unrest in a province what you see is how rebellious it is. Currently it does still have an effect on things like assimilation, migration and conversion however, this is subject to change still.

(unrest as it currently stands in the internal build)

Existing things that affected unrest directly have now all been converted either to something that affects happiness or other things when that makes sense.

What about subject countries?

We will get back to subject countries in a future diary. For now I will say that when a rebellion breaks out a subject country of the right culture can join the independence war just like rebellious provinces can, given the right circumstances. The new independence war goal is also available for all subject countries against their overlord, with its focus on the aggressor surviving by defending themselves, rather than by defeating all armies of their former overlord.

That was it for today!

I hope that you will enjoy these changes, which we are now busy trying out and balancing. As usual any numbers you see in the text or in screenshots are to be considered work in progress.