Vapourware Ironmode games

[Salvo]

I've always found playing Ironman / Hardcore in long non-strategy games to be stupid. Make a couple mistakes and lose 60 hours of progress?
No thank you.

That said, reloading as little as possible does make for better enjoyment.

 

[Vic]

Make a couple mistakes and lose 60 hours of progress?

I think that's the point. The tension and excitement which gradually increases the further you progress, knowing that you might lose everything if you make a mistake.

 

[MerchantKing]

I've always found playing Ironman / Hardcore in long non-strategy games to be stupid. Make a couple mistakes and lose 60 hours of progress?
No thank you.

The problem with many games with iron modes is that they're not really designed for it.

60 hours of progress?

The only reason many crpgs are this long is because the dev wants to tell some story that usually ends up being mediocre at best. You're 60 hours in, but how much of that time was spent either just reading mediocre dialogue or watching some shitty cutscene?

 

[Vic]

well, what are some design elements that make a hardcore/ironman RPG better suited to this kind of gameplay than playing a regular RPG with a self-imposed ironman restriction?

 

[HeatEXTEND]

well, what are some design elements that make a hardcore/ironman RPG better suited to this kind of gameplay than playing a regular RPG with a self-imposed ironman restriction?

Randomness beyond combat rolls.

 

[MerchantKing]

well, what are some design elements that make a hardcore/ironman RPG better suited to this kind of gameplay than playing a regular RPG with a self-imposed ironman restriction?

Here's some examples

There was a Wii U game I remember seeing a while ago called ZombiU. It's not an rpg. If your character died in game, then the character turned into a zombie and still had your stuff in his backpack. You would then be able to continue playing as a different character in the world and could even encounter the previous character. Bannerlord already does something similar by allowing you to continue playing as a family member or companion of the character you initially created.

Having no dependence on the player having particular characters alive for progression within questlines. Too often developers want to write some mediocre story where the main character is a chosen one or some other character is special and has to stay alive until the end.

Having mechanics that allow a player to have their character and party withdraw from combat. Consequences if appropriate can be implemented for that. There are plenty of games that already have this mechanic or some way of enemies losing interest.

The ability to recruit new characters within a party based game when appropriate and necessary much like what was already in the Wizardry games, ToEE, and other party based games.

Possible alternatives to death where appropriate on defeat such as being captured and having to pay ransom or waiting for the opportunity to escape. There are already games that do this like Warband.

 

[Iucounu]

Make a couple mistakes and lose 60 hours of progress?

I think that's the point. The tension and excitement which gradually increases the further you progress, knowing that you might lose everything if you make a mistake.

True, but for me this growing tension has a tendency to turn into burnout; since at some point I barely dare keep playing for fear of making mistakes, making me more and more reluctant to resume a game.

 

[POOPERSCOOPER]

I think some form of limitation of save scumming would be cool, I always hated save scumming but not fully in the camp of having to start the game over if I fuck up. Maybe like a imitation of how you reload, like you either reload the last 30 minutes or you can't reload. I guess the perfect thing is just make your own rules without the game enforcing it. Be selective in how you reload.

 

[Glop_dweller]

One option is to irrevocably brand the session/PC with the reload count, and/or the character death statistics. In this way the session always indicates the context of the player's prior action.
—Short of hex editing a vanity plate, players would strive to keep their scores low for these undesirable reminders, even in single player games.

 

[ds]

If a developer wants to prevent players to circumvent RNG outcomes, the solution is to run the RNG long before the player notices the outcome, instead of the same moment. Perhaps each lootbox and NPC stat could be generated when the game begins, instead of the moment the player interacts with them?

Or just have less RNG to begin with. Especially RNG with a large range of possible outcomes is a crutch for inadequately modeled systems. And procedural loot is usually just stupid filler junk or items that make little sense for the container/location. These should be placed by an actual designer with half a brain and a hint of creativity instead of a random number generator.

The only reason many crpgs are this long is because the dev wants to tell some story that usually ends up being mediocre at best. You're 60 hours in, but how much of that time was spent either just reading mediocre dialogue or watching some shitty cutscene?

Length is also required for having meaningful character progression while still allowing the player time to get used to new abilities.

 

[Iucounu]

The only reason many crpgs are this long is because the dev wants to tell some story that usually ends up being mediocre at best. You're 60 hours in, but how much of that time was spent either just reading mediocre dialogue or watching some shitty cutscene?

For Ironman to work, I think gameplay must be enjoyable in every new restart. A game based on story actually sounds like a very poor Ironman choice, almost as bad as if a movie only let you progress 10 minutes for every new viewing, forcing you to view it again from the start every time.

 

[MerchantKing]

A game based on story actually sounds like a very poor choice

Yup. In an rpg, you should be creating the story with your decisions during gameplay. Not trying to run through some failed movie/tv/book writer's plotline.

 

[MerchantKing]

I agree with you, save scumming is a problem, if you can phantasmal killer and reload till the foe dies, you remove the main reason behind RNG in the game. Talking about it, DDO will start a new hardcore league day 6, you could try make a gnome illusionist and see how far you can go.

Let me ask Zed about the DDO thing. Zed Duke of Banville is DDO worth playing?

 

[Zed Duke of Banville]

Let me ask Zed about the DDO thing. Zed Duke of Banville is DDO worth playing?

Dragon's Dogma Online might be the only MMORPG worth playing, except that it's Japanese-only, never having had an English-language release, and the servers were shut down in 2019.

 

[Cryomancer]

Let me ask Zed about the DDO thing. Zed Duke of Banville is DDO worth playing?

Dragon's Dogma Online might be the only MMORPG worth playing, except that it's Japanese-only, never having had an English-language release, and the servers were shut down in 2019.

Nope. I was talking about this DDO, Dungeons & Dragons Online

Deep gnomes gain bonus to illusion spell DC and phantasmal killed spell like ability(1:12)

 

[MerchantKing]

Let me ask Zed about the DDO thing. Zed Duke of Banville is DDO worth playing?

Dragon's Dogma Online might be the only MMORPG worth playing, except that it's Japanese-only, never having had an English-language release, and the servers were shut down in 2019.

Nope. I was talking about this DDO, Dungeons & Dragons Online

Deep gnomes gain bonus to illusion spell DC and phantasmal killed spell like ability(1:12)

I don't think I'd play a Deep Gnome. They're not even real Gnomes... They're just some Greenwood fetish material.

 

[PorkyThePaladin]

The Porkman cometh (to explain gameplay basics to plebs): Ironman only works with games with sandbox/procedural gameplay, because not even the average Codex retard would play a story based RPG over and over after dying. It works really well in games like Battle Brothers, Vulture (NetHack), roguelikes in general, strategy games, etc. Does not work in a typical narrative-driven RPG.

 

[MerchantKing]

Does not work in a typical narrative-driven RPG.

It works in tabletop. So there is a way to make it work in a story game. There just needs to be mechanics to facilitate it.

 

[PorkyThePaladin]

Because tabletop is closer to sandbox than to narrative rpgs. DM is making shit up, can always adjust the story to death, or a new run. Narrative fixed RPGs are fixed, so if you die, you will have to sit through the same shit over and over.

 

[Beastro]

Designing a game around Iron man mode and to only be played with the Iron mode seems natural for a crpg. It's good for role playing since you can't save scum.

Just copy the one save file and keep a folder of back ups.

When I did with NEO scavenger after I got tired of restarting it enough times and enjoying the early game.

 

[MerchantKing]

Because tabletop is closer to sandbox than to narrative rpgs. DM is making shit up, can always adjust the story to death, or a new run. Narrative fixed RPGs are fixed, so if you die, you will have to sit through the same shit over and over.

I see. So story games aren't even real rpgs.

 

[Vic]

just play roguelikes

 

[Damned Registrations]

If a developer wants to prevent players to circumvent RNG outcomes, the solution is to run the RNG long before the player notices the outcome, instead of the same moment. Perhaps each lootbox and NPC stat could be generated when the game begins, instead of the moment the player interacts with them?

That just creates a different problem though- now the player is inventivized to try pickpocket everyone in the game once, and reload if it fails. This kind of gameplay is retarded; it requires no skill or intelligence, only tedium with zero risk. Cookie clicker has more impactful decisions than games that let you savescum things like that.