Is Cyberpunk 2077 an RPG?

[Yosharian]

This is a typical example of FO4 dialogue and it shows how there's generally 4 distinct ways for your character to react.

You want to argue that this is smoke and mirrors and that there's actually little consequence to picking one dialogue over another? Fine. You want to argue that the dialogue is badly-written? Fine.

But don't tell me that CP2077's system is better. It's always better to be able to choose how your character talks than to be forced into dialogue that is always the same (which most of the time is what CP2077 does). It doesn't matter if the dialogue isn't well-written, or isn't deep, or doesn't have consequences - it's still better for ROLE-PLAYING for me to decide how my character speaks.

'At least CP2077 is honest' is a trash take and you should be embarrassed to write that.

 

[res11]

I employ a very loose definition of RPG by which a lot of stuff can pass as one that passes not for a lot of people. Witcher, Fallout 3-4, that one Terminator game, Elder Scrolls, all are (bad) rpgs to me. Cyberpunk is not.

It is as much of an RPG as Borderlands. It is a looter shooter with unusually distinct character classes.

Why would you consider Fallout 4 an RPG but Cyberpunk not? I would see it the other way around.

So what is the defining quality, basically?

Fallout 4 has a better dialogue system than CP2077.

Spoiler

Still better than Cyberpunk 2077

Cyberpunk dialogue is at worst dull, never pants on head retarded like in Fallout 4 where they deliberately had to hide it behind 2 word paraphrases.

I dunno if you're deliberately not reading what I wrote or what, I'm talking about the dialogue SYSTEM not the quality of the dialogue itself.

And I also commented about the dialogue system. Fallout 4 dialogue system features giving you retarded 2 word paraphrases for each choice to mask how shitty it is. The dialogue system in Cyberpunk is at least honest about the options it gives you.

This is a typical example of FO4 dialogue and it shows how there's generally 4 distinct ways for your character to react.

You want to argue that this is smoke and mirrors and that there's actually little consequence to picking one dialogue over another? Fine. You want to argue that the dialogue is badly-written? Fine.

But don't tell me that CP2077's system is better. It's always better to be able to choose how your character talks than to be forced into dialogue that is always the same (which most of the time is what CP2077 does). It doesn't matter if the dialogue isn't well-written, or isn't deep, or doesn't have consequences - it's still better for ROLE-PLAYING for me to decide how my character speaks.

'At least CP2077 is honest' is a trash take and you should be embarrassed to write that.

There is no roleplaying in fallout 4 though. All 4 options lead to exactly the same outcome, so even in that aspect it still fails.

 

[Thac0]

There is no roleplaying in fallout 4 though. All 4 options lead to exactly the same outcome, so even in that aspect it still fails.

Not always. Sometimes one of the 4 options in F4 is charisma gated and gives more xp or bottlecaps or something. Sometimes you can avoid a fight against certain NPCs and solve the quest a different way. Sometimes a quest actually has a choice.
In Cyberpunk stat capped responses are only flavor. I think they have given me new options literally once. Cyberpunk has choices in quests only during main quests, side quests are usually just shoot everything that moves.

But those are two of the most shit dialogue systems in gaming history. You really have to grab the microscope to determine which one is marginally more shit, and as such I wouldn't make it dependant on the dialogue system which one is more rpg. The gap between the two games is not big enough in that regard for different treatment.

 

[Ol' Willy]

People arguing about if CP77 or Fagout 4 have better dialogue system - it's like argument about which one is better: vomit or liquid diarrhea shit. Vomit is more colorful and has pieces of undigested food in it, but diarrhea has this soft brown color and that rancid smell...

 

[res11]

There is no roleplaying in fallout 4 though. All 4 options lead to exactly the same outcome, so even in that aspect it still fails.

Cyberpunk has choices in quests only during main quests, side quests are usually just shoot everything that moves.

Not true. There are probably more dialogue choices with different outcomes in side quests than in main quests. To be honest, comparing CP2077 dialogue system with Fallout 4 is such ridiculous hyperbole that I have to assume it's bait at this point.

 

[Yosharian]

There is no roleplaying in fallout 4 though. All 4 options lead to exactly the same outcome, so even in that aspect it still fails.

The picture I posted literally shows role-playing options. You choose how your character responds. That's what role-playing is. The fact that it might not be deep enough to have actual consequences is another matter, but it IS role-playing. You can always walk away from NPCs if you don't want to help them, so there's that.

 

[Yosharian]

There is no roleplaying in fallout 4 though. All 4 options lead to exactly the same outcome, so even in that aspect it still fails.

Not always. Sometimes one of the 4 options in F4 is charisma gated and gives more xp or bottlecaps or something. Sometimes you can avoid a fight against certain NPCs and solve the quest a different way. Sometimes a quest actually has a choice.
In Cyberpunk stat capped responses are only flavor. I think they have given me new options literally once. Cyberpunk has choices in quests only during main quests, side quests are usually just shoot everything that moves.

But those are two of the most shit dialogue systems in gaming history. You really have to grab the microscope to determine which one is marginally more shit, and as such I wouldn't make it dependant on the dialogue system which one is more rpg. The gap between the two games is not big enough in that regard for different treatment.

I disagree, I think there is a noticeable gap, despite FO4's dialogue system generally not being good in the first place - CP2077's is noticeably worse.

 

[user]

CDPR doesn't call it an RPG - they correctly call it "an open-world, action-adventure story". So why are we even questioning this, please erase both "yes" options.

 

[thesheeep]

'At least CP2077 is honest' is a trash take and you should be embarrassed to write that.

The only trash take is thinking that meaningless choices matter in any shape or form in determining RPG-ness.
There are either meaningful choices (of which F4 might actually have a handful more) or there are no choices. Picking which way my character says the predetermined "yes" is as irrelevant as the choice of color of the character's dress.
If you think that makes an RPG, you'd be better off here than on the Codex.

 

[Yosharian]

'At least CP2077 is honest' is a trash take and you should be embarrassed to write that.

The only trash take is thinking that meaningless choices matter in any shape or form in determining RPG-ness.
There are either meaningful choices (of which F4 might actually have a handful more) or there are no choices. Picking which way my character says the predetermined "yes" is as irrelevant as the choice of color of the character's dress.
If you think that makes an RPG, you'd be better off here than on the Codex.

Being able to choose how your character responds helps immerse you in your character. Acting like it's meaningless is absurd.

 

[NJClaw]

CDPR doesn't call it an RPG - they correctly call it "an open-world, action-adventure story". So why are we even questioning this, please erase both "yes" options.

They changed their Twitter and Steam description to remove every possible mention of the forbidden genre, but, according to them, the game is still an "RPG" on GOG:

Who knows, maybe it's an RPG only if you buy it through their store.

 

[thesheeep]

'At least CP2077 is honest' is a trash take and you should be embarrassed to write that.

The only trash take is thinking that meaningless choices matter in any shape or form in determining RPG-ness.
There are either meaningful choices (of which F4 might actually have a handful more) or there are no choices. Picking which way my character says the predetermined "yes" is as irrelevant as the choice of color of the character's dress.
If you think that makes an RPG, you'd be better off here than on the Codex.

Being able to choose how your character responds helps immerse you in your character. Acting like it's meaningless is absurd.

Which would be relevant if immersion had anything to do with a game being an RPG or not...

I can't "cosmetically act out" shit in tons of RPGs - therefore it is simply an irrelevant metric for the discussion at hand.

 

[Yosharian]

Here's an example of some dialogue from Underrail, one of the best indie RPGs to come out recently and much adored here on the Codex (rightly so I might add)

I guarantee most of those responses, hell maybe all of them, have zero actual consequences (if there are any, the wiki doesn't mention them).

But this moment is still important because it gives the player a chance to decide how their character will respond. This is just one way that RPGs immerse players in their game, not every piece of dialogue has to have consequences. I personally was tempted to pick response 8, but I decided to say nothing instead since I figured it was a waste of time to cause a ruckus, and I was sort of worried that I might get thrown out of the city or something like that.

Tell me more about how dialogue with no consequences is 'irrelevant' though.

 

[res11]

Here's an example of some dialogue from Underrail, one of the best indie RPGs to come out recently and much adored here on the Codex (rightly so I might add)

I guarantee most of those responses, hell maybe all of them, have zero actual consequences (if there are any, the wiki doesn't mention them).

But this moment is still important because it gives the player a chance to decide how their character will respond. This is just one way that RPGs immerse players in their game, not every piece of dialogue has to have consequences. I personally was tempted to pick response 8, but I decided to say nothing instead since I figured it was a waste of time to cause a ruckus, and I was sort of worried that I might get thrown out of the city or something like that.

Tell me more about how dialogue with no consequences is 'irrelevant' though.

Not the same thing at all. In Fallout 4 your character either says the same retarded shit with 1 or 2 different words, or asks for info. That's not the same as shaping your character or being immersive.

 

[Lord of Riva]

Not the same thing at all. In Fallout 4 your character either says the same retarded shit with 1 or 2 different words, or asks for info. That's not the same as shaping your character or being immersive.

That said a lot of people would argue that a dialogue system is not relevant for an RPG, look at all the old games. So yeah, I would agree that both CP and F4 have a bad dialogue system a most likely due to the seemingly progressing illiteracy and fear of actually reading that seems to spread more than covid and there is not vaccine in sight.

 

[Tyrr]

I employ a very loose definition of RPG by which a lot of stuff can pass as one that passes not for a lot of people. Witcher, Fallout 3-4, that one Terminator game, Elder Scrolls, all are (bad) rpgs to me. Cyberpunk is not.

It is as much of an RPG as Borderlands. It is a looter shooter with unusually distinct character classes.

Why would you consider Fallout 4 an RPG but Cyberpunk not? I would see it the other way around.

So what is the defining quality, basically?

Fallout 4 has a better dialogue system than CP2077.

Spoiler

Still better than Cyberpunk 2077

Cyberpunk dialogue is at worst dull, never pants on head retarded like in Fallout 4 where they deliberately had to hide it behind 2 word paraphrases.

I dunno if you're deliberately not reading what I wrote or what, I'm talking about the dialogue SYSTEM not the quality of the dialogue itself.

And I also commented about the dialogue system. Fallout 4 dialogue system features giving you retarded 2 word paraphrases for each choice to mask how shitty it is. The dialogue system in Cyberpunk is at least honest about the options it gives you.

This is a typical example of FO4 dialogue and it shows how there's generally 4 distinct ways for your character to react.

You want to argue that this is smoke and mirrors and that there's actually little consequence to picking one dialogue over another? Fine. You want to argue that the dialogue is badly-written? Fine.

But don't tell me that CP2077's system is better. It's always better to be able to choose how your character talks than to be forced into dialogue that is always the same (which most of the time is what CP2077 does). It doesn't matter if the dialogue isn't well-written, or isn't deep, or doesn't have consequences - it's still better for ROLE-PLAYING for me to decide how my character speaks.

'At least CP2077 is honest' is a trash take and you should be embarrassed to write that.

There is no roleplaying in fallout 4 though. All 4 options lead to exactly the same outcome, so even in that aspect it still fails.

 

[Gargaune]

The argument is more around how it's handled. Deus Ex has that "hold the reticule over the enemy and wait for it to get smaller" system which puts a halt to gameplay and is absolute dogshit. There's probably better examples, but tying it directly to spread and having it tighten as the player levels up is how GRAND THEFT AUTO: SAN ANDREAS, THE GREATEST RPG OF ALL TIME handled it and I really enjoyed the progression from shitty gangster who can barely hit the broad side of a barn to master assassin/sharpshooter that game offers, especially when you learned how to dual wield SMGs and turned into a hyper mobile death machine.

But then we're in agreement, the formula of tying circumstantial bullet spread to skill level is solid and it's just a matter of balancing the variables for adequate play - it's why I brought DX4 into the discussion, same core concept but an implementation better fit to purpose, for the most part. The feature of "zeroing in" on a target is mechanically deprecated by iron sights, though a (much quicker) stabilising effect through distance scopes probably still has some mileage since you don't want spread there.

They changed their Twitter and Steam description to remove every possible mention of the forbidden genre, but, according to them, the game is still an "RPG" on GOG:

Who knows, maybe it's an RPG only if you buy it through their store.

Can confirm, I bought it in their store and it's an (AA)RPG. A bad one.

 

[Ol' Willy]

The feature of "zeroing in" on a target is mechanically deprecated by iron sights, though a (much quicker) stabilising effect through distance scopes probably still has some mileage since you don't want spread there.

The skill affects a lot of things during firing process: stability of aiming (shown through the huge crosshair or shaking iron-sights), speed of reload, recoil control, drawing, handling, proper trigger pull (inexperienced shooters tend to jerk it off too much loosing their aim in the last second). Very few games, if none at all, get it right.

 

[Gargaune]

The skill affects a lot of things during firing process: stability of aiming (shown through the huge crosshair or shaking iron-sights), speed of reload, recoil control, drawing, handling, proper trigger pull (inexperienced shooters tend to jerk it off too much loosing their aim in the last second). Very few games, if none at all, get it right.

Yes, exactly, and that's why I'm in favour of modelling at least some of these many variables on an abstract character skill, since you can't do it on a computer mouse. The player's ability to react quickly and precisely to threats is still a vital combat element, whereas familiarity with the weapon is handled by the character skill representing such factors.

 

[Gerrard]

CDPR doesn't call it an RPG - they correctly call it "an open-world, action-adventure story". So why are we even questioning this, please erase both "yes" options.

Yet they still put it in the RPG category on Steam.

 

[Gerrard]

Here's an example of some dialogue from Underrail, one of the best indie RPGs to come out recently and much adored here on the Codex (rightly so I might add)

I guarantee most of those responses, hell maybe all of them, have zero actual consequences (if there are any, the wiki doesn't mention them).

But this moment is still important because it gives the player a chance to decide how their character will respond. This is just one way that RPGs immerse players in their game, not every piece of dialogue has to have consequences. I personally was tempted to pick response 8, but I decided to say nothing instead since I figured it was a waste of time to cause a ruckus, and I was sort of worried that I might get thrown out of the city or something like that.

Tell me more about how dialogue with no consequences is 'irrelevant' though.

If the game does not acknowledge your choices in any way then it's all LARP bullshit. It's not any different than you pretending.

 

[thesheeep]

CDPR doesn't call it an RPG - they correctly call it "an open-world, action-adventure story". So why are we even questioning this, please erase both "yes" options.

Yet they still put it in the RPG category on Steam.

I'm not 100% sure on this, but afaik the tags of a game are mostly decided on by people selecting tags.
Maybe the developer decides initial tags/placement, but after that, it all just becomes a matter of how many people "vote" for which tags.

Not that it matters what the devs themselves call it as long as everyone else calls it an RPG...

 

[Gerrard]

CDPR doesn't call it an RPG - they correctly call it "an open-world, action-adventure story". So why are we even questioning this, please erase both "yes" options.

Yet they still put it in the RPG category on Steam.

I'm not 100% sure on this, but afaik the tags of a game are mostly decided on by people selecting tags.
Maybe the developer decides initial tags/placement, but after that, it all just becomes a matter of how many people "vote" for which tags.

Not that it matters what the devs themselves call it as long as everyone else calls it an RPG...

Does the "Game Genre" change based on tags? I'm pretty sure it's decided by whoever puts the game in the store.

 

[undecaf]

It doesn’t feel like one to me at all, more like if Witcher had raped Far Cry with GTA filming it.

But if, for some reason, it was one, it certainly is not doing a good job at being one.

 

[MajorMace]

Can't you guys just admit that getting hyped for cyberpunk (lol) was a mistake and let this banal game rest until some definitive edition makes it an ok graphical novel ?