Is there any value in allowing characters to walk rather than run in an isometric RPG?

[Corbin Dallas Multipass]

Stuff and stuff and stuff and oh my god it just keeps going

TLDR

But we are not having that conversation, and hit points are not a problem that can be fixed overnight. What we're talking about here is simply allowing characters in games to run sometimes and walk other times. This simple feat has already been accomplished in hundreds of games, and it should be absolutely noncontroversial for new games to continue to include it.

Oh! This is a reasonable position. Or at least, understandable.

Right now I'm replaying baldur's gate 2 because why not right? And let me tell you, I really wish there was a run button. I'd be fine if it reduced (or increased, whichever is bad) my AC while I was running, so as to prevent me from Sanic'ing around and stabbing the mages in the guts freely, but I wish my duders would just hustle a bit when we're walking through cleared areas or towns. So I guess I'm agreeing with you here, but from the other direction. I feel baldur's gate ONLY allows walking. The addition of running would have been nice.

Also, same comment for diablo 1.

 

[Sigourn]

good response, people who turn on walking in video games just so they can "roleplay" are weirdos

There's a difference between walking for "roleplay", and walking because sometimes you don't want to feel you are always in a hurry. The latter has nothing to do with roleplaying, it's just something many people experience. Same reason why watching someone do anything in a hurry can cause you to feel in a hurry.

It's the same reason why I didn't like fast travelling the way it was done in modern Bethesda games. I avoided fast-travelling in New Vegas because the feeling the game was giving me was that I was essentially "skipipng" time in favor of getting shit done as quickly as possible. It's like a film about a journey, except suddenly you are skipping every single bit of the journey. Oh, so now you need to go back to point A? Well, let's immediately cut to the protagonists at point A. Oh, do they need to go back to poitn B? Let's cut to point B again. It feels sloppy, and that's how I felt in New Vegas.

Fallout's fast travelling is different because

A) You see your character trek through the wasteland, reinforcing the sense of journey.
B) Random encounters are a possibility.

Incidentally this is also why I didn't give two shits about Morrowind's travel system. I'd rather have New Vegas' or Skyrim's over Morrowind's, since as "immersive" as Morrowind's travel system tried to be, you are still teleporting from A to B. It works for Mages Guild travel system and Mark/Recall/Intervention, where you are literally teleporting. But when you are travelling in a Silt Strider or a boat, it sure feels odd that the game treats it as just teleportation by a different method.

 

[King Crispy]

What about stealth and "backstabbing"?

In most conventional fantasy RPGs, the backstab maneuver absolutely requires your character to be unseen, or in "stealth mode", which is, as far as I know, always going to have been animated in such a form that is visually much slower than that game's non-stealthed movement mode.

But wait! If you're moving so slowly while attempting to backstab someone or something, isn't that a waste of time? Why do I have to wait an extra fifteen seconds for my thief character to sneak over to that mage in order to backstab him? Just sprint over there! Or just teleport me there with a puff of smoke like a ninja!

Should there even be an option for "stealth" or "backstabbing" in RPGs? Why is there? Why is it such a staple of these games?

 

[wishbonetail]

Incidentally this is also why I didn't give two shits about Morrowind's travel system. I'd rather have New Vegas' or Skyrim's over Morrowind's, since as "immersive" as Morrowind's travel system tried to be, you are still teleporting from A to B. It works for Mages Guild travel system and Mark/Recall/Intervention, where you are literally teleporting. But when you are travelling in a Silt Strider or a boat, it sure feels odd that the game treats it as just teleportation by a different method.

Maybe you're teleporting in Morrowind but still you're need to plan your route. I'm in the ass of the world and i'm going to use Almisivi intervention scroll. Where does it gets me? Molag Mar? Ok, now i'll take a flea ride to Vivec. Then - gondola to a requred canton. And i'm not even talking about navigation to quest objectives, which is a quest by itself. As far as i know this is the only game which encourages player to study the game world and actually pay attention to the surroundings.
Sorry, but no modern game with fast travel and quest markers can tangle with Morrowind in terms of immersion. Not even New Vegas.

 

[HeroMarine]

What's wrong with walking?

 

[Corbin Dallas Multipass]

What about stealth and "backstabbing"?

In most conventional fantasy RPGs, the backstab maneuver absolutely requires your character to be unseen, or in "stealth mode", which is, as far as I know, always going to have been animated in such a form that is visually much slower than that game's non-stealthed movement mode.

But wait! If you're moving so slowly while attempting to backstab someone or something, isn't that a waste of time? Why do I have to wait an extra fifteen seconds for my thief character to sneak over to that mage in order to backstab him? Just sprint over there! Or just teleport me there with a puff of smoke like a ninja!

Should there even be an option for "stealth" or "backstabbing" in RPGs? Why is there? Why is it such a staple of these games?

Well in that case there are tactical concerns. The requirement to move slowly for stealth means the target has more chance to notice or react. It's part of the gameplay.
Just like it's not a waste of time if my character misses 10 longsword swings before he hits the guy and kills him. I mean, sure, if you're just going to complete extremes you could claim all the gameplay between the opening cinematic and the closing one is a waste of time but that's getting a little silly. I mean, sure, playing games is a waste of time, but so is everything else.

But the thing people seem to be talking about here is when it makes no real difference. My character will make it across waukeen's promenade, no matter how poorly I build him or how bad I am at playing. The only question remaining is, will I spend two minutes watching him walk across the promenade, or will I spend 15 seconds? That's where it becomes a waste of time.

Immersion is a subjective matter. If i'm bored to tears waiting 30 minutes to walk across a field then I'm by definition not very fucking immersed, now am I? Especially if I'm like "In real life I'd hustle a little bit you lazy sack of shit!".

And if your only argument is "Hurr durr you casuals just like things to be over faster" then I'd counter with "Hurr durr you sperglords just like things to take fifty times longer than they need to so you can keep ignoring your pathetic and depressing life". And where does that get us? Well I had a little chuckle I guess but at what cost?

 

[King Crispy]

So clearly the best option is to have... an option. Toggleable "walk" key, whatever. rusty seems to be adamant that such an option is worthless, however, thus the point of the thread.

It's funny how he, as the thread starter, doesn't seem to be interested in actually backing up his position any longer, however.

 

[Sharpedge]

I can see the value of different movement speeds from an immersion perspective, but for them to be immersive, they actually needs to have consequences tied to them. For example, if you have a fatigue mechanic that causes players who opt to move faster to become winded at a greater pace, thus incurring maluses as a consequence of it. Increases in player generated noise and other stealth related penalties are also additional ways to tie movement speed to gameplay. If you are adding a mechanic to a game, it should always (in my opinion) serve some sort of purpose. Having a day and night cycle for example, is only immersive to me, if there is proper NPC scheduling related to it. I don't want a day and night cycle which amounts to nothing more than a change in screen lighting.

 

[Sigourn]

Maybe you're teleporting in Morrowind but still you're need to plan your route. I'm in the ass of the world and i'm going to use Almisivi intervention scroll. Where does it gets me? Molag Mar? Ok, now i'll take a flea ride to Vivec. Then - gondola to a requred canton. And i'm not even talking about navigation to quest objectives, which is a quest by itself. As far as i know this is the only game which encourages player to study the game world and actually pay attention to the surroundings.
Sorry, but no modern game with fast travel and quest markers can tangle with Morrowind in terms of immersion. Not even New Vegas.

But this is the problem. You are talking about Morrowind's travel system from a "planning" perspective. I personally don't give a shit about the planning. Sometimes I just want to go from where I am to another place, and I don't feel like doing so by using a combination of boats, silt striders, and guild teleports just because the devs thought that was "immersive".

What's funnier is that there's little to gain in Morrowind's planning other than avoiding annoyance. "We've designed an annoying feature just so you can take pride in circumventing its annoying parts" is such a weird flex. Gold is everywhere in Morrowind so it's not like carefully planning out your root makes a big difference.

What does break my immersion, however, is that taking a silt strider or teleporting using a guild feels exactly the same.

 

[Corbin Dallas Multipass]

So clearly the best option is to have... an option. Toggleable "walk" key, whatever. rusty seems to be adamant that such an option is worthless, however, thus the point of the thread.

It's funny how he, as the thread starter, doesn't seem to be interested in actually backing up his position any longer, however.

Well obviously it depends on the game and genre. Contra doesn't need a walk button. Doom doesn't need a walk button. Fallout 2 kinda had a walk button and I'd say it wasn't really needed. Baldur's gate 2 could have either used always running or an option, or hell, just a faster gait in general.

I mean, the OP specifically called out someone saying "Imagine if fallout had no walk option." ok... that's basically how most people played it.

Are we counting a sneak mode as walking? Of course you'd probably feel a little silly sneaking across a big open field...

 

[mediocrepoet]

It's funny how he, as the thread starter, doesn't seem to be interested in actually backing up his position any longer, however.

You've read his posts before, right?

 

[wishbonetail]

But this is the problem. You are talking about Morrowind's travel system from a "planning" perspective. I personally don't give a shit about the planning. Sometimes I just want to go from where I am to another place, and I don't feel like doing so by using a combination of boats, silt striders, and guild teleports just because the devs thought that was "immersive".

What does break my immersion, however, is that taking a silt strider or teleporting using a guild feels exactly the same.

What's the alternative? Running everywhere in Boots Of Blinding Speed? Lunging in werewolf form? Jumping? Levitating? Still more options than any other game. Besides, planning is the part of the journey.

 

[Sigourn]

But this is the problem. You are talking about Morrowind's travel system from a "planning" perspective. I personally don't give a shit about the planning. Sometimes I just want to go from where I am to another place, and I don't feel like doing so by using a combination of boats, silt striders, and guild teleports just because the devs thought that was "immersive".

What does break my immersion, however, is that taking a silt strider or teleporting using a guild feels exactly the same.

What's the alternative?

An instant teleportation system like the one used in New Vegas and Skyrim. You know, for those of us who don't think walking around the game or "planning" shenanigans to be a particularly enjoyable experience.

Did I enjoy that system? No. I certainly enjoyed Morrowind's much worse, as I cursed myself any time I was sent to the opposite ass of the map for yet another trivial quest.

 

[Corbin Dallas Multipass]

It's funny how he, as the thread starter, doesn't seem to be interested in actually backing up his position any longer, however.

You've read his posts before, right?

I mean, the moment someone decided that wanting to not wait to watch extended walking animations showed a weakness of character any possibility of useful discussion was over. Zorba and Crispy's weird religious devotion to boredom isn't something you can argue. OK, some people say Jesus was the messiah, some people say spending half an hour watching animations play between moments of gameplay makes you a better person, that's nice.

Now, it's all a bit silly to me, as I'd think you true blue RPG lovers would remember that in pen and paper RPGs, the things we wish CRPGs could more faithfully replicate (Don't we?) the DM rarely, if ever, spends the time to describe in detail the individual steps your party takes on the way to a destination (well a decent DM at least). Obviously you skip over the pointless boring stuff. That doesn't mean you don't still take several rounds to sneak up on a troll, as that's not the boring stuff. And a good DM could describe your character's traipse through a safe wooded glade in a very interesting manner, regardless of how fast the character's gaits were while they performed this traipse.

Now, I realize we're a bunch of internet assholes arguing our subjective opinions are somehow actually objective truth, but have you considered that I'm actually the only one who is right about that opinion, which is in fact objective truth, as I just detailed? And since Rusty Shackleford isn't here waving his ass around like a moron, unlike some people, perhaps he's the ultimate winner of the thread after all?

 

[King Crispy]

Again, it should simply be an option.

Who's the one being religious here?

 

[Corbin Dallas Multipass]

Again, it should simply be an option.

Who's the one being religious here?

You always have the option of simply clicking a tiny distance in front of your character then waiting a while, as you enjoyed your immersion like fine wine. I mean, really, animations!?! Who even cares about graphics shit like that?

Damn popamole casuals having the wrong kinds of fun.

 

[King Crispy]

An option.

 

[Sharpedge]

Corbin Dallas Multipass in my post above I outlined multiple ways in which walking can add mechanical depth to an RPG. There are other potential benefits as well, to be more specific, it allows the player to experience a sense of "improvement" which is otherwise completely absent, if they are locked to a single speed. If it is possible to improve your movement speed, then it is another axis in which you can make your character feel better and thus give you a sense of progression. For first person games the benefits of having multiple movement speeds are actually even more pronounced if you wish to properly take advantage of them. For example, the speed that you move through an area can impact the sense of mood.

 

[mediocrepoet]

It's funny how he, as the thread starter, doesn't seem to be interested in actually backing up his position any longer, however.

You've read his posts before, right?

I mean, the moment someone decided that wanting to not wait to watch extended walking animations showed a weakness of character any possibility of useful discussion was over. Zorba and Crispy's weird religious devotion to boredom isn't something you can argue. OK, some people say Jesus was the messiah, some people say spending half an hour watching animations play between moments of gameplay makes you a better person, that's nice.

Now, it's all a bit silly to me, as I'd think you true blue RPG lovers would remember that in pen and paper RPGs, the things we wish CRPGs could more faithfully replicate (Don't we?) the DM rarely, if ever, spends the time to describe in detail the individual steps your party takes on the way to a destination (well a decent DM at least). Obviously you skip over the pointless boring stuff. That doesn't mean you don't still take several rounds to sneak up on a troll, as that's not the boring stuff. And a good DM could describe your character's traipse through a safe wooded glade in a very interesting manner, regardless of how fast the character's gaits were while they performed this traipse.

Now, I realize we're a bunch of internet assholes arguing our subjective opinions are somehow actually objective truth, but have you considered that I'm actually the only one who is right about that opinion, which is in fact objective truth, as I just detailed? And since Rusty Shackleford isn't here waving his ass around like a moron, unlike some people, perhaps he's the ultimate winner of the thread after all?

Sure and if you actually read the replies in this thread, you'll notice that some aren't very useful on either side and others bring up interesting mechanical considerations beyond immersion or the proper way to play a game.

Really, my point is that although Rusty has some interesting posts, he also has a tendency to have a bunch of dumb lolposts that he just leaves as is to try and irritate whoever bothers reading it. Kind of like yours, as far as I can tell.

 

[Serus]

Sorry, why are some of you talking about slow walking in the Underrail? You do know that there is a speed-up option that can speed up movement several times if you want? Right? And even without it, walking per se wasn't that slow when wearing some + speed items, and there were a few. And on top of that there is fast travel in this game. Stealth otoh, that is or was painfully slow and worse is that you wan't to do it a lot.
Underrail (with speed up options) is an example of how indie crpgs can do it well. Make character walk = LARPERs are happy, but add speed up options = everyone who doesn't like to look at grass grow in real time is happy too.

This is the main use and it actually contributes to gameplay instead of just being LARPer crap. Yes, you should be able to walk, and yes, that should sometimes be a necessity while exploring in order to avoid danger.

Agreed. The best option: both walking and running has gameplay uses and the game can afford animations for both. However If there is no gameplay reason to force players to walk and only LARPing as reason, then the hell with it. Some games cannot afford to make two sets of animations. In such case larping should never be the deciding factor.

 

[Zombra]

I can see the value of different movement speeds from an immersion perspective, but for them to be immersive, they actually needs to have consequences tied to them. For example, if you have a fatigue mechanic that causes players who opt to move faster to become winded at a greater pace, thus incurring maluses as a consequence of it. Increases in player generated noise and other stealth related penalties are also additional ways to tie movement speed to gameplay. If you are adding a mechanic to a game, it should always (in my opinion) serve some sort of purpose. Having a day and night cycle for example, is only immersive to me, if there is proper NPC scheduling related to it. I don't want a day and night cycle which amounts to nothing more than a change in screen lighting.

Obviously it's nicer if everything in the game is observed and can have numerical gameplay impact, but it's very weird to insist that every system must impact gameplay. It's like you'd get mad if the game let your character wear a red tabard or a blue one because "It doesn't make a difference!! All tabards should therefore be red!!"

 

[Jedi Exile]

I think it is mostly cosmetic, but it is also tied with how you prefer to play. If you like slow exploration, talking to everyone, looking into every container, it is good to have an option to walk. Running around is just... it doesn't feel good. If you want to finish the game ASAP, then you will want to always run, but this is not what I usually want. In action RPGs like Diablo, yes, it makes sense because you are almost always fighting, but even there I would rather walk in towns.

 

[Zombra]

Well obviously it depends on the game and genre. Contra doesn't need a walk button. Doom doesn't need a walk button. Fallout 2 kinda had a walk button and I'd say it wasn't really needed. Baldur's gate 2 could have either used always running or an option, or hell, just a faster gait in general.

Quite right. Contra is not a dynamic game; it doesn't build or release tension. It's just running forward shooting guys. Sometimes bigger guys or more guys, but always just running forward shooting guys. There's no reason to give players any tools to control the pacing, because there is no pacing and there's not supposed to be any pacing.

RPGs are different from Contra. They have parts where you're running forward stabbing goblins. They have parts where you're running to a better position to fight tough enemies. They have parts where the castle is collapsing and you need to escape. They also have parts where you're in a town, relaxing at the inn, approaching the king, shopping for backpacking supplies, following the informant, wandering around talking to randos on the street. Not all of these situations require urgent sprinting, and not all of these situations make sense with urgent sprinting.

Personally I walked in Fallout all the time, when it felt appropriate. I like my character's behavior on screen to make sense as if he is a person in a world. I like character behavior to not look bizarre. Other people see RPG characters as nothing but stacks of numbers and that is fine for them I guess. It makes me wonder why they are playing a game at all though instead of looking at spreadsheets.

 

[Zombra]

[general talk about crap fast travel systems]

The best fast travel systems are in Shadowrun (SNES, 1993) and - wait for it - Daggerfall. In Daggerfall, I believe you could initiate FT from anywhere, and in Shadowrun you had to go to a train station, but the important bit was the same: in both, they showed a short animation of your character traveling. For those who don't remember, Daggerfall showed a dude riding a horse for a few seconds, and Shadowrun showed Jake Armitage sitting in a subway car as the city went by. This very simple "preview" style let you feel a moment of "this is what going from place to place is like". It so cleanly obviated the idiotic sense that you were simply teleporting which somehow modern games can't shake. I still can't believe that RPGs expect us to accept teleportation, then show us a 30 second load screen of a picture of a monster. Why can't the load screen show my character riding a fucking horse?

 

[Zombra]

I could see a value in walking if you'd do something like Hitman, where acting suspiciously is going to gain unwanted attention. Another example is Gothic, where pulling out your sword would earn you a beating, because people don't like someone drawing their weapon. Another reason could be stamina management - you can't sustain running over a long period of time without some sort of drawback. So, yeah, there is a plenty of potential value in allowing walking, but it needs to be considered carefully.

Um ... why does it need to be considered carefully? You're talking like there's some huge danger in allowing people to walk in games if they want to. I can see some (dull-minded) devs not comprehending why some people might want it, but to be so cautious of it is odd. What exactly is the downside?